What Is Heresy?

Is there any heresy in the United States?

OSAS 101 said:

Is there any heresy in the United States?

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I am reminded of something that G.K. Chesterton, an English Catholic apologist and wit, once said. He said that the Reformation not only let loose every form of vice; but excessive virtue as well. So we see the Puritans taking purity to an obsessive level and burning and hanging women suspected of witchcraft. We see prohibition taking drinking in moderation to the unbiblical call for complete abstinence.

tz620q said:

That is a fair point; but I would contend that Joan of Arc was nominally burned as a heretic because the English wanted her dead, not as a statement of doctrine. As far as a church without error, I think you have been here long enough to know that isn't what the Catholic Church claims; but this does bring up an interesting side note. Declarations of sainthood are one of the small number of things felt to be infallible in the Catholic Church. The clerics that condemned her were thus found to be wrong by the Inquisitorial Court and the only infallible statement made in this is the declaration of Sainthood.

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Hi tz,

My point. To those of us on this side of the Catholic and Orthodox fellowships of the church established through and by Jesus, they are both just fellowships of followers of Jesus. However, being a part of either one doesn't make one 'saved' or 'born again'. That only comes through a direct and indwelling Holy Spirit of God. This is, as far as I understand it, exactly what Jesus intended when he beseeched the Father that we all be as one just as he and the Father are one; we are all indwelled with the Spirit of God. So, there are some among pretty much all of the earthly denominations of the faith that God asks of us, who are so born. So indwelled with His Spirit. There are also, according to Jesus' very own testimony of the day of his Father's judgment, 'many' (according to Jesus) among all of these fellowships who are not.

I have recounted my experience with the RCC before on these boards and I'll take a moment to do so again for those who are new to these boards and aren't aware of it.

My father and mother were married for 25 years. They were married by my grandfather who gave all of his life to the proclamation of Jesus as Lord. He pastored fellowships pretty much up until his death. In the later years of his life he did interim teaching. He was a godly man by all outward appearances. Reading the Scriptures daily and praying and always giving godly instruction and advice.

My father was a cad. Now, don't get me wrong, he was a decent father to me and my siblings. Not perfect, of course, but he always provided financially although never really gave any of us any spiritual advice. I honestly don't remember a copy of the Scriptures being opened in our home. But, throughout the 25 years of marriage he had affairs at various times and with various women that would allow him his way with them. Married women, single women, it didn't seem to make much difference to him.

Near the end of the 25 year marriage he had become enamored with his secretary and they began an affair. She was, of course, a 'good' Catholic girl. She was also about half his age. My age to be exact. My parents divorced over this and other issues and then my father took up with his secretary on a more permanent basis and the discussion of marriage came up between them. However, being a
'good' Catholic girl, she wasn't going to marry him except in the Catholic church. Uh-oh. As you might expect that brings up a pretty solid roadblock in the Catholic organization. Maybe not so much today, but 30 years ago it did.

So, my father had to pay some money and go through the catechisms and provide evidence to the people who make these decisions as to the validity of a marriage, how he had been first married. Needless to say, enough money was paid and enough wheels were greased that it was determined that the 25 year marriage that had brought about 4 children wasn't a real marriage. They got married. I remember my father once telling me after he had married his new woman that if he had it to do all over again he wouldn't have done it because there were just too many needy women out there for him to squire. This was when he was probably about 50 years old. Sad but true.

So yes, I have a bit of difficulty understanding that this organization represented by the Catholic name really has the handle on God's truth. Now, that's just my personal experience with understanding what the Catholic organization believes about the things of God and its authority to determine the things of God and quite honestly, it doesn't seem to really be much different than the Jewish faith at the time that Jesus appeared upon the earth.

The Jews thought of themselves that they had a handle and pretty complete understanding of right religion that is pleasing to God. Jesus made it pretty clear to them that they didn't. The Catholic organization likewise thinks of itself and teaches its adherents that it is the right way to practice true religion towards God and I just can't see that in them.

There have been popes that have done even worse things than Satan himself. Wicked sexual adulteries and lusts. There is, according to most reports of financial standings of various organizations, no one organization with more money than the Catholic organization. And while, yes, they do use some of that money to help the less fortunate, a great lion's share of it has long been used to acquire earthly gain. I apologize in advance that what I say here might offend some of that organization, but there just seems to be a fairly direct link between what Judaism was in Jesus' day and what the Catholic organization is today. What is written of the Jewish leadership seems to also be true among them. That they chase over the whole world to gain one convert and then turn that person into a dog worse than themselves.

Anyway, that's my personal testimony and everyone is free to believe what they will regarding the issue.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited said:

My father and mother were married for 25 years. They were married by my grandfather who gave all of his life to the proclamation of Jesus as Lord. He pastored fellowships pretty much up until his death. In the later years of his life he did interim teaching. He was a godly man by all outward appearances. Reading the Scriptures daily and praying and always giving godly instruction and advice.

My father was a cad. Now, don't get me wrong, he was a decent father to me and my siblings. Not perfect, of course, but he always provided financially although never really gave any of us any spiritual advice. I honestly don't remember a copy of the Scriptures being opened in our home. But, throughout the 25 years of marriage he had affairs at various times and with various women that would allow him his way with them. Married women, single women, it didn't seem to make much difference to him.

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I feel for you; but as an apologist I often try to look at both sides of an issue. You did not mention your grandfather's affiliation so it is hard to determine what their stance on divorce might be. I would wager though that they did not put one roadblock in your father's way to divorcing your mother and remarrying. I know that for you this is cold comfort; but try to look at the Catholic side. We do grant too many annulments, especially in the U.S. with 60% of the world's annulments happening here; but there was no Catholic marriage to annul here. So the tribunal would have looked at the ministers that performed the marriage, which were your father and mother and tried to determine if they both had the intent to give themselves freely, wholely, and exclusively to each other. That does not seem to have been your father's intent. This may seem like weasel words; but it is at least a stance short of most other denominations wholesale affirmation of divorce.

tz620q said:

I am reminded of something that G.K. Chesterton, an English Catholic apologist and wit, once said. He said that the Reformation not only let loose every form of vice; but excessive virtue as well. So we see the Puritans taking purity to an obsessive level and burning and hanging women suspected of witchcraft. We see prohibition taking drinking in moderation to the unbiblical call for complete abstinence.

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How about Marianne Williamson?
She is a mystic new age writer that many Christians today are following her.
She fits in Jesus whenever she feels it appropriate, whether for or against.
She is a woman writer followed mostly by women.
So if I point out the anti-Christian literature she is putting out, the female Christian feels my writing is bias against women
This is all from my experience
I ask you, is it heresy she promotes, because that's what I called it?

OSAS 101 said:

How about Marianne Williamson?
She is a mystic new age writer that many Christians today are following her.
She fits in Jesus whenever she feels it appropriate, whether for or against.
She is a woman writer followed mostly by women.
So if I point out the anti-Christian literature she is putting out, the female Christian feels my writing is bias against women
This is all from my experience
I ask you, is it heresy she promotes, because that's what I called it?

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I have not read anything that she has written, so I cannot judge. In truth, I took your question about are there heresies in the U.S. as being somewhat rhetorical, since heresy exists everywhere at all times. I suppose we could discuss whether the U.S. is particularly heretical at this time though.

tz620q said:

I feel for you; but as an apologist I often try to look at both sides of an issue. You did not mention your grandfather's affiliation so it is hard to determine what their stance on divorce might be. I would wager though that they did not put one roadblock in your father's way to divorcing your mother and remarrying. I know that for you this is cold comfort; but try to look at the Catholic side. We do grant too many annulments, especially in the U.S. with 60% of the world's annulments happening here; but there was no Catholic marriage to annul here. So the tribunal would have looked at the ministers that performed the marriage, which were your father and mother and tried to determine if they both had the intent to give themselves freely, wholely, and exclusively to each other. That does not seem to have been your father's intent. This may seem like weasel words; but it is at least a stance short of most other denominations wholesale affirmation of divorce.

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Hi tz,

My grandfather's stance on divorce was the same as the Scriptures seem to explain. I don't think there is any mandate from the Scriptures that believers are 'supposed' to stop people from getting a divorce. It is just understood for what it is; breaking what God has joined together.

More specifically, you replied:

tz620q said:

So the tribunal would have looked at the ministers that performed the marriage, which were your father and mother and tried to determine if they both had the intent to give themselves freely, wholely, and exclusively to each other.

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But, there is no such mandate in the Scriptures that there needs to be some determination of such things in marriage. The Scriptures merely say that a marriage is a man and woman who cleave to each other. That they become one. It doesn't give any instruction that we need to make some determination when a couple decides to become one, that they need to pass some test to show that they are giving 'themselves freely, wholely, and exclusively to each other'. That is merely the definition of what marriage is.

Thus, my point in comparing such practices of faith with the practices of Judaism in Jesus' day. They have taken the law of God and pitted it against the law of man.

How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Matthew 16:11-12

The Catholic organization teaches against what God teaches us about marriage. God says that no man shall tear asunder that which God has joined together. The Catholic church says that it is perfectly ok to tear asunder that which God has joined together if they can question whether or not God has actually done the joining together. Sorry, such a test isn't found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures never once make some point that divorce or breaking of marriage vows is perfectly ok if the marriage wasn't recognized by God. Never once!!!

In fact, the Scriptures never once bring up any 'conditions' that need to be upheld by two people who become married. If a man chooses a woman to be his wife, then they are married in God's sight seems to be the only explanation of marriage in the Scriptures. If you've got some evidence that the Scriptures allow that there are two different types of marriage, I'd be interested in seeing it. Quite frankly, up until the days of Israel, marriage wasn't even some process that needed the approval of some body of godly people to make such joining 'legal' in God's sight. A man picked a wife. The two became one.

As I understand the Scriptures, the whole issue of a man and woman being married seems to revolve around their becoming one, i.e., having sexual relations.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited said:

Hi tz,

My grandfather's stance on divorce was the same as the Scriptures seem to explain. I don't think there is any mandate from the Scriptures that believers are 'supposed' to stop people from getting a divorce. It is just understood for what it is; breaking what God has joined together.

More specifically, you replied:

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Actually, the acceptance of divorce with no process other than a piece of paper seems to follow the OT Jews more than the annulment process. I just find it odd that you choose to make this a Catholic thing without being as critical of your grandfather's denomination, which is what your father and mother belonged to at least from how they got married. Or do you believe that this Catholic woman that eventually married your father was the cause of his divorce? It sounds like it would have happened anyway, just without all the hoops that your father and his secretary had to go through to get married. It is a sad thing and certainly no credit to Catholics that this woman would choose to have an affair with a married man; but I can assure you this is not condoned by the Catholic Church.

As far as scripture, Matthew has the most extensive writing on this in chapter Matthew 19:

1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan.
2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
12For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So I ask you, were these OT divorces valid if they were done out of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews? And when Christ points back to Genesis and states how man and woman were created, was he pointing to the pristine hearts of Adam and Eve before the fall without the corrupted nature we inherit?

We have gone a little far afield from the OP. I think I will stop here.

God bless you, Ted

tz620q said:

Actually, the acceptance of divorce with no process other than a piece of paper seems to follow the OT Jews more than the annulment process. I just find it odd that you choose to make this a Catholic thing without being as critical of your grandfather's denomination, which is what your father and mother belonged to at least from how they got married. Or do you believe that this Catholic woman that eventually married your father was the cause of his divorce? It sounds like it would have happened anyway, just without all the hoops that your father and his secretary had to go through to get married. It is a sad thing and certainly no credit to Catholics that this woman would choose to have an affair with a married man; but I can assure you this is not condoned by the Catholic Church.

As far as scripture, Matthew has the most extensive writing on this in chapter Matthew 19:

1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan.
2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
12For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So I ask you, were these OT divorces valid if they were done out of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews? And when Christ points back to Genesis and states how man and woman were created, was he pointing to the pristine hearts of Adam and Eve before the fall without the corrupted nature we inherit?

We have gone a little far afield from the OP. I think I will stop here.

God bless you, Ted

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Hi tz,

You seem to have veered off the path. No one is denying that there are divorces and that Jews had divorce. Gosh the Scriptures even talk about it. What's at issue here is this idea that a marriage somehow isn't valid based on some organization's personal idea of what constitutes a 'valid' marriage. No, when the Jews gave an order of divorce, it didin't make the man or woman never married. I'm not sure that I understand why you've gone now to this new subject. Is it because I mentioned that I imagined my grandfather had a biblical concept of marriage? Or was it because I related the account of my parent's divorce?

As to whether or not this 'good' Catholic woman was part of the cause of my parent's divorce? I honestly can't imagine that she wouldn't hold some responsibility in that since she was the woman that my father was taking to bed while he was married to my mother and who was giving my father permission to bed her while he was married. That seems like a no brainer to me. I'm quite sure that God wouldn't hold either blameless.

Sadly, the truth of the matter seems to be that the Catholic organization knows full well that a divorced person remarrying is against the laws of God. So, what do they do? They come up with this process whereby they can deem the marriage never existed and, therefore, the people are free to remarry (or I guess the Catholic understanding would be to partake in a first marriage) without fear of committing a sin against God. Do you honestly believe that God sees it that way? Really? You think that God has two kinds of joinings of a man and woman? One with all the pomp and circumstance of a marriage with a license and all the worldly stuff that such entails and the other only being one that is recognized by the 'church'. I don't find anything in the Scriptures that would allude to such an understanding.

Anyway, you're correct, we've beaten this horse about as much as he can stand.

God bless,
In Christ, ted