How Do We Know What Books Are In The Bible?

PeaceByJesus · Apr 22, 2018

GingerBeer said:
Something went wrong with your post. None of what you had to say was shown except as part of the quote you made of my post. Perhaps you will fix the problem?

Fixed. If there is a closed quote tag at the end it will do that (although you can see the rest by clicking on "click to expand"), and sometimes the flaky software will keep inserting it after it is deleted, but it is fixed now.

PeaceByJesus · Apr 22, 2018

Philip_B said:
We know that NT references the OT. This is a list of references in the NT that either do or seem to use or allude to passages in the Deuterocanonicals. I didn't do the list, however I suspect that the length of it indicates that there has been substantive use of the LXX in the NT by the writers of the NT. The list may not be absolutely definitive according to the author.

I think I would like to formally withdraw my earlier suggestion that Jesus quoted from the LXX as he almost certainly was speaking in Aramaic rather than Koine Greek. However I will accept that the writers of the NT had a preference to use the LXX over the Masoretic text.

I accept a lot of the argument about the Deuterocanonicals, however I believe they have a place, and whilst we may hold them of a lesser value that the Masoretic Canon, I still believe they have a place.

LXX references/allusions in the NT
Matthew
Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20

Mark
Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s

Luke
Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22

John
John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11

Acts
Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26
Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19
Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12
Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7
Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32
Acts 4:24 Judith 9:12
Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32
Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6
Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10
Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19
Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40
Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21
Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1
Acts 10:2 Tobit 12:8
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc.
Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1
Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8
Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc.
Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19
Acts 12:5 Judith 4:9
Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26
Acts 12:23 Judith 16:17
Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21
Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41
Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9
Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30
Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10
Acts 14:14 Judith 14:16s
Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3
Acts 15:4 Judith 8:26
Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17
Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1
Acts 17:24 Tobit 7:17
Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9
Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18
Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6
Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10
Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7
Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17
Acts 19:28 Daniel 14:18, 41
Acts 20:26 Daniel 13:46
Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31
Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49
Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1
Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6
Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 26:25 Judith 10:13

Romans
Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15
Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24
Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4
Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23
Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s
Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11
Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21
Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19
Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11
Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24
Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12
Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23
Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12
Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8
Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11
Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13
Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29
Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4
Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s
Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1
Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34
Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27
Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s
Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18
Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9
Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20

1 Corinthians
1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s
1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1

2 Corinthians
2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16

Galatians
Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17

Ephesians
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21

Philippians
Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6

Colossians
Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s

1 Thessalonians
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18

2 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7

1 Timothy
1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4

2 Timothy
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60

Titus
Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6

Hebrews
Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17

James
James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
James 5:3 Judith 16:17
James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19

1 Peter
1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13

2 Peter
2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10

1 John
1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72

Jude
Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1

Revelation
Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17
Source: Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

One can find similarities to many Biblical teaching even in pagan religions, and indeed Paul is seen quoting from some. (Act 17:28 ; 1Co. 15:32; Titus 1:12) But allusions or seeming or even real references to a source or even quoting (and attempts to claim such for the deuteros in the NT are mostly spurious) a truth by one does not necessarily mean the work is Scripture. Only canonical books are actually called Scripture, or cited as authoritative by "it is written," or "God said," "Moses said," or the like which allusions or reference to works of the deuteros never are.

And we know things passed-down information is true such as Jannes and Jambres being the names of those who withstood Moses because wholly inspired writers of Scripture included them. (2 Timothy 3:8)

But your popes and councils do not speak or write as wholly inspired of God in telling us what the word of God is, and thus they cannot be equal with Scripture, nor is ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome Scriptural.

Philip_B · Apr 22, 2018

PeaceByJesus said:
But your popes and councils do not speak or write as wholly inspired of God in telling us what the word of God is, and thus they cannot be equal with Scripture, nor is ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome Scriptural.

First off, I think you mean our Popes and Councils, and in specific reference to myself (given that I am not a Roman Catholic) I would be much more likely to reflect of conciliar authority.

Second, let me say that I do not believe that any Council thought itself above Scripture, and in my tradition if at any point a Council was shown to be at odds with Scripture, Scripture would prevail.

My point has been, that the notion of the deutero-canonical status is not unreasonable, not wishing those works to prevail in any sense against the primary canon of scripture, none the less not to be consigned to the scrap bin as their is good cause to believe that they were part of what was used/valued by the writers of the New Testament.

I get that you don't want to give authority to the Church to declare the canon, however it is also true that the list of books in the canon did not simply drop out of the sky.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

Philip_B said:
We know that NT references the OT. This is a list of references in the NT that either do or seem to use or allude to passages in the Deuterocanonicals. I didn't do the list, however I suspect that the length of it indicates that there has been substantive use of the LXX in the NT by the writers of the NT. The list may not be absolutely definitive according to the author.

I think I would like to formally withdraw my earlier suggestion that Jesus quoted from the LXX as he almost certainly was speaking in Aramaic rather than Koine Greek. However I will accept that the writers of the NT had a preference to use the LXX over the Masoretic text.

I accept a lot of the argument about the Deuterocanonicals, however I believe they have a place, and whilst we may hold them of a lesser value that the Masoretic Canon, I still believe they have a place.

LXX references/allusions in the NT
Matthew
Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20

Mark
Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s

Luke
Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22

John
John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11

Acts
Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26
Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19
Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12
Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7
Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32
Acts 4:24 Judith 9:12
Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32
Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6
Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10
Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19
Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40
Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21
Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1
Acts 10:2 Tobit 12:8
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc.
Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1
Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8
Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc.
Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19
Acts 12:5 Judith 4:9
Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26
Acts 12:23 Judith 16:17
Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21
Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41
Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9
Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30
Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10
Acts 14:14 Judith 14:16s
Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3
Acts 15:4 Judith 8:26
Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17
Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1
Acts 17:24 Tobit 7:17
Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9
Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18
Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6
Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10
Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7
Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17
Acts 19:28 Daniel 14:18, 41
Acts 20:26 Daniel 13:46
Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31
Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49
Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1
Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6
Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 26:25 Judith 10:13

Romans
Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15
Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24
Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4
Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23
Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s
Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11
Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21
Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19
Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11
Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24
Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12
Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23
Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12
Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8
Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11
Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13
Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29
Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4
Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s
Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1
Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34
Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27
Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s
Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18
Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9
Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20

1 Corinthians
1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s
1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1

2 Corinthians
2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16

Galatians
Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17

Ephesians
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21

Philippians
Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6

Colossians
Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s

1 Thessalonians
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18

2 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7

1 Timothy
1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4

2 Timothy
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60

Titus
Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6

Hebrews
Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17

James
James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
James 5:3 Judith 16:17
James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19

1 Peter
1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13

2 Peter
2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10

1 John
1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72

Jude
Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1

Revelation
Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17

Source: Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

Before I spend a lot of time on this, can you identify which are direct quotes and which are allusions?

Philip_B · Apr 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Before I spend a lot of time on this, can you identify which are direct quotes and which are allusions?

I actually think there is a lot of work to be done on this as well. Please note very clearly that my case is not that the deuterocanonicals should be valued in the same way as the primary canon, but simply that they should not be outright discarded. This passage in Wisdom relating to the serpent in the wilderness I find quite helpful.

Wisdom of Solomon 16
Therefore those people were deservedly punished through such creatures, and were tormented by a multitude of animals. Instead of this punishment you showed kindness to your people, and you prepared quails to eat, a delicacy to satisfy the desire of appetite; in order that those people, when they desired food, might lose the least remnant of appetite because of the odious creatures sent to them, while your people, after suffering want a short time, might partake of delicacies. For it was necessary that upon those oppressors inescapable want should come, while to these others it was merely shown how their enemies were being tormented.

For when the terrible rage of wild animals came upon your people and they were being destroyed by the bites of writhing serpents, your wrath did not continue to the end; they were troubled for a little while as a warning, and received a symbol of deliverance to remind them of your law’s command.

For the one who turned towards it was saved, not by the thing that was beheld, but by you, the Saviour of all.

My argument is not that the deuterocanonicals should be elevated to the status of the primary canon, simply that they should not be thrown away.

PeaceByJesus · Apr 22, 2018

Philip_B said:
I actually think there is a lot of work to be done on this as well. Please note very clearly that my case is not that the deuterocanonicals should be valued in the same way as the primary canon, but simply that they should not be outright discarded. This passage in Wisdom relating to the serpent in the wilderness I find quite helpful.

Wisdom of Solomon 16
Therefore those people were deservedly punished through such creatures, and were tormented by a multitude of animals. Instead of this punishment you showed kindness to your people, and you prepared quails to eat, a delicacy to satisfy the desire of appetite; in order that those people, when they desired food, might lose the least remnant of appetite because of the odious creatures sent to them, while your people, after suffering want a short time, might partake of delicacies. For it was necessary that upon those oppressors inescapable want should come, while to these others it was merely shown how their enemies were being tormented.

For when the terrible rage of wild animals came upon your people and they were being destroyed by the bites of writhing serpents, your wrath did not continue to the end; they were troubled for a little while as a warning, and received a symbol of deliverance to remind them of your law’s command.

For the one who turned towards it was saved, not by the thing that was beheld, but by you, the Saviour of all.

My argument is not that the deuterocanonicals should be elevated to the status of the primary canon, simply that they should not be thrown away.

Yes, but the Wisdom of Solomon is one thing, but thn you have the story of a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and "the worst of demons," abducts and kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated!

And about a man, Tobias, who was sleeping with his eyes open while birds dropped dung into in his eyes (sound sleeper!) and blinded him. And who later is attacked by a fish leaping out of the river to devour him! But Raphael has him capture it and later he burns the fish’s liver and heart to drive away the demon Asmodeus away to Upper Egypt, enabling him and Sarah to finally consummate his marriage.

The officially RC approved NAB Bible says in its intro to Tobit that it is folklore, as if that was not obvious, and in rejecting this as Scripture, we have not followed "cunningly devised fables", thank God, and which reads like so much of the nonsense in some of the Talmud, "Not giving heed to Jewish fables..." (Titus 1:14)

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

Philip_B said:
I actually think there is a lot of work to be done on this as well. Please note very clearly that my case is not that the deuterocanonicals should be valued in the same way as the primary canon, but simply that they should not be outright discarded. This passage in Wisdom relating to the serpent in the wilderness I find quite helpful.

Wisdom of Solomon 16
Therefore those people were deservedly punished through such creatures, and were tormented by a multitude of animals. Instead of this punishment you showed kindness to your people, and you prepared quails to eat, a delicacy to satisfy the desire of appetite; in order that those people, when they desired food, might lose the least remnant of appetite because of the odious creatures sent to them, while your people, after suffering want a short time, might partake of delicacies. For it was necessary that upon those oppressors inescapable want should come, while to these others it was merely shown how their enemies were being tormented.

For when the terrible rage of wild animals came upon your people and they were being destroyed by the bites of writhing serpents, your wrath did not continue to the end; they were troubled for a little while as a warning, and received a symbol of deliverance to remind them of your law’s command.

For the one who turned towards it was saved, not by the thing that was beheld, but by you, the Saviour of all.

My argument is not that the deuterocanonicals should be elevated to the status of the primary canon, simply that they should not be thrown away.

Understand your position now. This from Wisdom is actually teaching from the Law.

Yet honorable mentions and teachings does not make the protocanon. But understand your historical position.

Yet maybe we should add CS Lewis to the Anglican deuterocanon.

I mean he quotes loads of Scriptures.

Notice smilies.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

PeaceByJesus said:
What?! What universe is that from?

Don't know...Kobal.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Indeed... unless they changed their ways. And while there have been some, shall we say, less than impeccable clergy over the millennia, it would be a bit preposterous to claim that it was mostly only vile, horrible people serving as clergy at any point in time. The Church's track record on this is hardly perfect but the overwhelming majority of Catholic clergy have been good, faithful and obedient men.

I agree God accepts repentant sinners even church leaders. However, this does call into question the infallible edicts of men steeped in sin.

Yet for all our faults one thing is unchanging and sure...The inspired words of God.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

GingerBeer said:
I know that Jesus never quoted the new testament, he spoke a good number of things that later Christian writers (Luke, Paul, Mark and so forth) wrote into the new testament. What you've missed in your post is the rest of what I wrote in the paragraph from my post that you partially quoted.

The authority to decide what is and what is not "scripture" was given by Jesus to the church. That authority predates the completion of the new testament. The church never needed bible verses to prove its credentials. But since the church created the new testament it also included the words that Jesus spoke authorising the church to teach the gospel and to write scripture.
Jesus and the apostles quoted from some of the old testament books but they didn't quote from the new testament. That was because the new testament didn't yet exist. They also didn't quote from some old testament books - if you do not already know you can check and find out for yourself what books they did not quote.

The truth is that the new testament is not in any "Jewish canon" predating Jesus life and times. And the truth is that the bibles that Christians use are not "Jewish" but Christian. It is traditions that establish the canonical books that are found in Christian bibles.

When do you think the NT books were penned?

thecolorsblend · Apr 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
I agree God accepts repentant sinners even church leaders. However, this does call into question the infallible edicts of men steeped in sin.

I suppose I have greater faith in the Holy Spirit than you do.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

Philip_B said:
Did the writers of the NT accept the Septuagint (LXX) as scripture?

Did Jesus accept the LXX as scripture?

Given that Koine Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire and on the basis of what we read in the NT the conclusion would be yes.

That is why I accept that they be included, however I recognise that there is also stuff there that sits awkwardly - so the caveat that those books may not be used on their own to determine what must be believed makes sense to me. Yes I am aware that that is the Anglican position of the 39 articles, but I do get it. I don't think those works should be just blown away.

Most of the NT quotes of the OT are believed to be from the LXX. Which manuscripts we don't know. Some contained the deuterocanon books some did not.

The best external evidence we have of the OT canon as received by the Hebrews is Josephus which supports the 39 book OT.

The question is if the apostles, mostly Jewish and most likely reading from the Hebrew and or Aramaic actually used the LXX in their upbringing. Yet given the expansion of the church beyond Judea and Jerusalem to Diaspora Jews and also Gentiles, the Holy Spirit chose the lungua franca of the Empire which was Koine Greek. Therefore it only made sense when quoting the OT to use the LXX.

Philip_B · Apr 22, 2018

PeaceByJesus said:
The officially RC approved NAB Bible says in its intro to Tobit that it is folklore, as if that was not obvious, and in rejecting this as Scripture, we have not followed "cunningly devised fables", thank God, and which reads like so much of the nonsense in some of the Talmud, "Not giving heed to Jewish fables..." (Titus 1:14)

Endlessly the argument seems to be more anti-catholic than anything. I am not a Catholic (in the sense you appear to mean it), and I find no need to be anti Catholic. People who play Rugby don;t need to hate Soccer. The Roman Catholic Church is not the enemy.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
I suppose I have greater faith in the Holy Spirit than you do.

You mean faith in the self assured magisterium.

redleghunter · Apr 22, 2018

Philip_B said:
Endlessly the argument seems to be more anti-catholic than anything. I am not a Catholic (in the sense you appear to mean it), and I find no need to be anti Catholic. People who play Rugby don;t need to hate Soccer. The Roman Catholic Church is not the enemy.

Frankly how is what you quoted anti-Catholic? @PeaceByJesus quoted the NAB RC Bible introduction.

Philip_B · Apr 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Frankly how is what you quoted anti-Catholic? @PeaceByJesus quoted the NAB RC Bible introduction.

The remark was not taken in splendid isolation, and pbj did more than simply quote in that it is followed by their commentary on the commentary. I merely passed an observation as to how it was sounding, and I think I made that clear.

GingerBeer · Apr 22, 2018

PeaceByJesus said:
the church did indeed need Scripture texts to prove its credentials, both in word and in power.

Jesus didn't need old testament authority to prove his credentials. The new testament is built on the testimony of Jesus. The churches decided what books are in the new testament. The churches made those decisions based on apostolic authority. That's just fact. It's also fact that there are at least 4 canons for the scriptures in current widespread use. The Ethiopian, the Greek Orthodox, the Catholic, and the Protestant. Each is based on apostolic tradition.

GingerBeer · Apr 22, 2018

PeaceByJesus said:
The officially RC approved NAB Bible says in its intro to Tobit that it is folklore

The NAB appears to have sanction from the USA Council of Catholic Bishops for its translation but not specifically for its notes and introductions. And the introduction to Tobit says

The Book of Tobit, named after its principal character, combines Jewish piety and morality with folklore in a fascinating story that has enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles. Prayers, psalms, and words of wisdom, as well as the skillfully constructed story itself, provide valuable insights into the faith and the religious milieu of its unknown author. The book was probably written early in the second century B.C.; it is not known where.

which does not say that Tobit is folklore. It says that it uses folklore and Jewish piety and morality to tell a story.

GingerBeer · Apr 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
When do you think the NT books were penned?

I do not know, before the canon was decided but exactly when depends on each book and its author's decision to write it.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 22, 2018

It would seem to me that the third view is the most plausible given the complexities of authority within the church community. Sola Scriptura in principle doesn't allow anyone's conscience to be bound to anything else except their personal opinion of scripture. A position which puts Church before all others, doesn't let someone be bound to what the Scripture says. Therefore both must have a necessary amount of authority in order to actually function.

To say the bible attests to it's own authority independent of any witness of the Church is implausible given that we have never had a definitive list of books universally agreed upon by all Christians that constitutes the canon. Why is the Protestant 66 canon to be considered in of itself superior to the Catholic or Orthodox canons? If you rely on historical arguments or say that the Jews rejected certain books, how does that make the Protestant canon self authenticating, it's relying on an external source for authenticity? Any argument given for the canon which goes beyond the words of sacred scripture means that the bible is not self authenticating but requires an outside means.

You could say that means is the Spirit but does that Spirit come from the bible or from God to his Church to determine which books are part of it? The Spirit is external to the bible and contributes to our reading and recognising the bible just as much as it does in recognising the Church or fellow believers, so that appeal doesn't help establish Sola Scriptura any more than it does that the Church is necessary and has authority (since the individual granted the spirit has authority within the Church and constitutes part of it).

I would ask, what is the basis for the claim that the Church does not have the authority to make dogmatic claims that scripture does not make? If it concerns her people's beliefs and who constitutes her, does not the Church if a dispute arises have the authority to settle matters for the community or did that prerogative only belong to the Apostles when they gathered in council? Given the amount of disputes that happened in the Apostolic times and especially after their deaths and that Paul calls the Churh 'the Pillar and foundation of truth' surely the apostles left some mechanism besides personal interpretation of individuals to determine matters for the Church? It seems to me, they left the Church and those given authority within it to settle such matters.

How Do We Know What Books Are In The Bible?

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured

Thank You Jesus!

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

Thank You Jesus!

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured

Cool and refreshing with a kick!

Cool and refreshing with a kick!

Cool and refreshing with a kick!

Dissident

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