7th Trumpet Rapture?

jerry kelso said:

riberra,

1. You are are just taking scriptures out of their appropriate time factors to fit your scenario.

2. You put Revelation 15:1-2 which are martyrs who go to Heaven which is true.
But then you automatically go out of Revelation into Thessalonians to prove the Thessalonians passage that has living believers being caught up with them.
This is unfair and forced and wrong exegesis.

3. Because you believe there is only one rapture in the First Resurrection in Revelation 15:1-2 and 20:4-6.
The fact is in those passages there is only tribulation martyrs and no living believers mentioned.

4. It is true that the KoH reign will be established on earth when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:11-20:1-6.
This is after Revelation 16 which is the wrath of God On the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.
Revelation 14:9-13 does agree with Revelation 16:1-2. The time factor for them dying is in the 7 vials to the Battle Of Armageddon Revelation 16; 19:15-21. actually being in the fire and brimstone which is the Lake of Fire is 1000 years after Armageddon Revelation 19:20 when the beast and the antichrist are killed at Armageddon 20:1-3; Revelation 20:10 when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire 1000 years after Armageddon for he is bound in the bottomless pit 1000 years before Revelation 20:1-3.
The same year is the GWTJ Revelation 20:11-12 where all sinners from Adam to the last rebellion Revelation 20:7-9 are resurrected and Judged and thrown into the lake of fire Revelation 20:13-15.

5. Revelation 14:12-13 are the blessed dead which is from that time to Revelation 15:1-2 which is before the Wrath of God because the Wrath Of God is on the beast kingdom worshippers only Revelation 16:1-2.
Revelation 15:1-2 that sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb is the last believers to be resurrected and they are martyrs only.

6. Revelation 6:9-11 are the souls under the altar who are martyrs in the 1st half of the tribulation have to wait for their brethren to be killed.
This proves throughout the tribulation their will only be martyrs in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6 which is not on the Day of the Lord but before the Wrath Of God Revelation 16:2 and before Armageddon Revelation 16:16-21.
Even in Revelation 7:13-14 didn’t know who the tribulation saints were and he is part of the church age saints.
So you are forcing the 1st Thessalonians passage of 4:15-17 into the Revelation passage of Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6. Jerry Kelso

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jerry kelso said:

riberra,

So you are forcing the 1st Thessalonians passage of 4:15-17 into the Revelation passage of Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6. Jerry Kelso

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Let analyse the part that the pre-tribulation rapture promotors never include
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left UNTO the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;


Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus that God will bring with Him are DEAD BELIEVERS WHOSE SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN....Jesus will bring the SOULS OF THESE DEAD BELIEVERS TO BE RESURRECTED ON THE EARTH WHEN JESUS WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN -verse 16-.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ?

Riberra said:

Let analyse the part that the pre-tribulation rapture promotors never include
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left UNTO the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;


Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus that God will bring with Him are DEAD BELIEVERS WHOSE SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN....Jesus will bring the SOULS OF THESE DEAD BELIEVERS TO BE RESURRECTED ON THE EARTH WHEN JESUS WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN -verse 16-.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ?

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The return of Christ, scripture says

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

is no secret thing.
And He only comes a second time, not third etc...
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

And that second coming is at the end of the tribulation (His return signifies the
end), that salvation is also mentioned by Peter

1 Peter 1: 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Riberra said:

Let analyse the part that the pre-tribulation rapture promotors never include
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left UNTO the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;


Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus that God will bring with Him are DEAD BELIEVERS WHOSE SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN....Jesus will bring the SOULS OF THESE DEAD BELIEVERS TO BE RESURRECTED ON THE EARTH WHEN JESUS WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN -verse 16-.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ?

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riberra,

1. Pre-tribbers believe in 1 Thessalonians 4:13:16 as Pre-trib Rapture not the second advent. You know that.

2. You are trying to place the Thessalonians passage in the second advent and it is not there. Why? Because the Revelation passages don’t show the dead and living believers being resurrected at the same time. There are only Martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 7:13-14; 13:7; 14:13; 15:1-2; 16:1-2; 17:6; 18:24; 19:2; 20:4-6.

3. John 5:29; 11:23-24; 12:48; Hebrews 6:2 are about that the last day and resurrection of the dead only which fits all of Revelation.

4. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; the mystery is the dead in Christ and the living believers will all be changed which is by resurrection.
This goes with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 but not Revelation and the last day of the resurrection of the dead only.
The Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead only was preached by Jesus and John.
The New Testament doctrine was taught by Paul in Thessalonians and Corinthians and John in Revelation before the tribulation Revelation 4:1, 5:9-10. Jerry kelso

sdowney717 said:

The return of Christ, scripture says

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

is no secret thing.
And He only comes a second time, not third etc...
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

And that second coming is at the end of the tribulation (His return signifies the
end), that salvation is also mentioned by Peter

1 Peter 1: 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Click to expand...

The secret rapture at the trump of God on Pentecost

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

All eyes will see Him at the Last Trump on the Feast of Trumpets

jerry kelso said:

riberra,

1. Pre-tribbers believe in 1 Thessalonians 4:13:16 as Pre-trib Rapture not the second advent. You know that.
Jerry kelso

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That is effectively the (erroneous)interpretation that John Nelson Darby the inventor of modern dispensationalism and of the pre-tribulation rapture have given to the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 passage....which in reality is about the RESURRECTION of the DEAD BELIEVERS THAT WILL HAPPEN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS IN GLORY IN THE CLOUDS.

The HARPAZO ie the CAUGHT UP AND GATHERING TO MEET Jesus in THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR, IS JUST A TRANSPORTATION TO WHERE JESUS WILL BE AT HIS COMING ......NOT A TRIP TO HEAVEN:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
16....the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive and REMAIN, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

BABerean2 said:

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baberean2,

1. There is a difference between doctrinal understanding and biblical character and Calvin proved that and was legalistic in his church services and had Servitus killed and didn’t evangelize the gospel because of his 5 point Calvinism Of Election.
So shame on both of them.

2. All the apostles were concerned about right doctrine and right character.

3. There are many fundamentalists and non-fundamentalist that don’t have great character good but have good doctrine and yet don’t agree on doctrine.
God will judge all of us and how we built on the foundation of the church 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 but it won’t hurt our salvation.
If John Darby should be sentimental he’ll then Calvin would definitely have to go for having Servitus burned at the stake because Paul talked about his days of being the best at keeping the law in zeal and yet he killed Christians thinking he was pleasing God, but he did it ignorantly and God did indeed have mercy on him.

4. The person that said he switched from dispensationalism to amillennialism and never had heard anyone that read the Bible for themselves could not come to the conclusion of Dispensationalism was going by his experience for there are plenty that switched from Amillenialism to Dispensationalism and say the say the same thing about never being able to come to amillennialism. It is a mute point.

5. Much church history was affected by Augustine and Calvin and the Catholic Church.
There are other church historians that say the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues was believed in earlier baptist churches though many today don’t believe it.

6. One can be stopped up by their wrong hermeneutics all their life.

7. I haven’t read enough church history but I don’t know that I would necessarily agree that nobody didn’t ever believe in dispensationalism but that is like saying the apostles taught Calvinism. At least the word Dispensationalism is in the Bible, but you won’t find Calvinism.
I have to go to bed because I have one more day in the hospital and I have to get some rest.
But, suffice to say it is my opinion that is not the best way to try and disprove Dispensationalism. Jerry kelso

Choose Wisely said:

The secret rapture at the trump of God on Pentecost

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

All eyes will see Him at the Last Trump on the Feast of Trumpets

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Based on the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine... the pre- tribulation rapture was a mystery not teach in the Old Testament .

Song of Solomon 2 is from the OLD TESTAMENT ---- SOOO, Song of Solomon 2 cannot be about ''the secret rapture'' invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830.
Link:
John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

Everett J Schulte said:

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

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Revelation is not a chronological book. The events are often repeated using different symbolism. But the seventh trumpet blast does represent Jesus returning. But it is not before the tribulation, the tribulation happens first, not after.

Riberra said:

Based on the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine... the pre- tribulation rapture was a mystery not teach in the Old Testament .

Click to expand...

Can you post a link to the pretribulation rapture doctrine? I was unaware that it would be against doctrine for the pretribulation rapture to be mentioned in the old testament. So if the pretribulation rapture is mentioned in the old testament, and you say that is against doctrine, does that mean since the pretribulation rapture is mentioned...........that disproves the pretribulation rapture?

Riberra said:

Song of Solomon 2 is from the OLD TESTAMENT ---- SOOO, Song of Solomon 2 cannot be about ''the secret rapture'' invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830.
Link:
John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

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I'm pretty sure that this Darby invention (where Darby is said to have invented the pretribulation rapture )was invented by someone that did not notice that Jesus, John and Paul all mention the pretribulation rapture. I'm going to have to believe them.

Are you sure we have to go by pretribulation rapture doctrine....and can't just go by what the Bible says. You do understand that in Daniel it says that the Book is sealed until the time of the end when men shall run to and fro and knowledge shall greatly increase.
Song of Solomon 2
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart:behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.


Ah.......the secret rapture that no one can seem to find. I would still like a link to that doctrine so I will know what I am allowed to believe if I believe in the pretribulation rapture.

Choose Wisely said:

Can you post a link to the pretribulation rapture doctrine? I was unaware that it would be against doctrine for the pretribulation rapture to be mentioned in the old testament. So if the pretribulation rapture is mentioned in the old testament,`

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''The pre-tribulation rapture''--- ''the secret rapture''---or ''the rapture of the wise virgins to Heaven before the tribulation'' is not mentioned in the Old Testament NOR in the New Testament.That is pure invention coming from John Nelson Darby in 1830....and Margaret Mac Donald 1830 satanic vision of the so called wise virgins being raptured to Heaven before the tribulation while the rest of the Church goes through the tribulation.
YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED AND BEEN TOTALLY BRAINWASHED BY A VERY SEDUCING AND VERY APPEALING FABLE.

Hint: extra oil is needed to light a lamp more longer (not more brighter)....the parable of the 10 virgins is to tell us that the bridegroom will not come early as in any moments ...Only the 5 wise virgins were prepared for a long wait...and were ready when the bridegroom FINALLY CAME AT MIDNIGHT.
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

Riberra said:

''The pre-tribulation rapture''--- ''the secret rapture''---or ''the rapture of the wise virgins to Heaven before the tribulation'' is not mentioned in the Old Testament NOR in the New Testament.That is pure invention coming from John Nelson Darby in 1830....and Margaret Mac Donald 1830 satanic vision of the so called wise virgins being raptured to Heaven before the tribulation while the rest of the Church goes through the tribulation.
YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED AND BEEN TOTALLY BRAINWASHED BY A VERY SEDUCING AND VERY APPEALING FABLE.

Hint: extra oil is needed to light a lamp more longer (not more brighter)....the parable of the 10 virgins is to tell us that the bridegroom will not come early as in any moments ...Only the 5 wise virgins were prepared for a long wait...and were ready when the bridegroom FINALLY CAME AT MIDNIGHT.
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

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riberra,

1. Matthew 25:1-9; The 10 virgins was not spoken to the church of today for it is speaking to Israel about the KoH message which was preached by John the Baptist Matthew 3:2 and Jesus Matthew 4:17 under the age of the Mosaic Law Matthew 7:12; Galatian 4:4.

2. The rapture is not in the Old Testament and that is why it was a mystery to them 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

3. The parable of the virgins is about Israel at the 2nd Coming Of Jesus. The rapture is before the tribulation in Heaven Revelation 4:1; 5-10 and between the middle of the tribulation and towards the end of the tribulation Revelation 11:18; and in Heaven still at the end of the tribulation 19:7-10 before coming out of Heaven 19:11 to battle at Armageddon 19:11-21.

4. All the saints including the tribulation saints which are all martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 7:13-14; 13:7; 14:13; 15:1-2; 20:4-6 and the 1st Resurrection is before the 7 vials Revelation 1 on the Beast kingdom worshippers 16:2.

5. So Matthew 25:1-9 you have the wrong time factor.
The KoH message was not preached to the church in the New Testament Acts 1:6-7.

6. Revelation 16:15-16 is not the church keeping their garments. Why? One they are not raptured in this passage.
The 5 wise virgins for the Bridegroom goes out to meet them Matthew 25:6.
Matthew 24:40-41; two in the field, one shall be taken and the other left.
These need to be left not taken for this is when the battle is going on and if you’re taken you will be dead. Why? Matthew 24:37-39; it will be as the days of Noah, the people killed were those eating and drinking etc. and knew not until the flood came and took them all the way; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE.
There is no rapture here at Christ coming with judgement at the second advent.

7. Matthew 24:31; The elect gathered together from the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other. This is the Jewish elect on earth in the KoH reign on earth.
So you are out of context and cannot reconcile Matthew 24:31 and 37-38 together properly with your rapture on the Day of the Lord. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

The rapture is not in the Old Testament and that is why it was a mystery to them 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

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The following passage about the resurrection of the dead has been hijacked by Dispensationalists, who claim it is about the modern State of Israel.

Look at the language.

We have flesh coming back onto bones.

We have God putting His "spirit" in them.

We have an "everlasting" covenant. (Read Hebrews 13:20.)

We have the "tabernacle" or "sanctuary" being in the midst of them.
Who said He is the tabernacle of God, in the New Testament?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
(See John 3:1-8, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Hebrews 11:15-16)
Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
(The New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is made with both Israel and Judah.)
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (See "the twelve tribes scattered abroad" in James 1:1-3)
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (How long is "for ever"?)
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Who is the descendant of David found in Matthew 1:1?
Is King David the ruler "for ever" in the New Heavens and New Earth, or is it Christ who is the Seed of David?
Is King David the "sanctuary" of God in the New Testament?

Christ described this event in John 5:27-30.
The timing of the event is found right after the 7th trumpet, in Revelation 11:18.

.

BABerean2 said:

The following passage about the resurrection of the dead has been hijacked by Dispensationalists, who claim it is about the modern State of Israel.

Look at the language.

We have flesh coming back onto bones.

We have God putting His "spirit" in them.

We have an "everlasting" covenant. (Read Hebrews 13:20.)

We have the "tabernacle" or "sanctuary" being in the midst of them.
Who said He is the tabernacle of God, in the New Testament?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
(See John 3:1-8, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Hebrews 11:15-16)
Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
(The New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is made with both Israel and Judah.)
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (See "the twelve tribes scattered abroad" in James 1:1-3)
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (How long is "for ever"?)
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Who is the descendant of David found in Matthew 1:1?
Is King David the ruler "for ever" in the New Heavens and New Earth, or is it Christ who is the Seed of David?
Is King David the "sanctuary" of God in the New Testament?

Christ described this event in John 5:27-30.
The timing of the event is found right after the 7th trumpet, in Revelation 11:18.

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baberean2,

1. Hijacked? Wrong, we just believe in rightly dividing the word like proper context and hermeneutics like types of wording and other uses of language.

2. Ezekiel 37:1-14 is about the nation of Israel and not the church age saints.
It is about the valley of dry bones that are backslidden and have to come back spiritually to God and be regathered back to the land of Israel.
This will happen and it is on earth. So this has nothing to do with the rapture at all, whether one believes Pre, Mid, or Post!!!!!!
So this has nothing to do with happening at the 7th Trumpet blowing.

2. At the end of the tribulation they will accept the New Covenant because that is the only covenant that deals with the salvation of man’s soul and has been the condition since the Cross.

3. Hebrews 13:20 is talking to Hebrew Christians in the church age not the the covenants promised to the Nation of Israel who will receive the gifts and callings Romans 11:29 and the condition is repentance Romans 11:27.
This is the same condition as in Jesus Day when they rejected him Matthew 23:37-39 and were punished in A. D. 70 Matthew 24:1-2 because of that rejection.
The KoH was not preached in the early church Acts 1:6-7.

4. Ezekiel 1-14 hasn’t happened yet because it is not time of Jacob’s trouble yet and the KoH reign has not begun.

5. John 3:1-8 is about the spiritual birth of salvation which was in the Old Covenant was the deliverance by the Red Sea which is born of water and the second time would be by the Spirit Ezekiel 36:26-27 during the tribulation.

6. 1 Corinthians 3:16 is speaking to the church age saints and directly to the Gentile Corinthian church.

7. Hebrews 11:15-16; Directly to the Jews in the New Testament Church.
The Old Testament Saints were perfected with the New Testament Saints Hebrews 11:40.

8. Ezekiel 31 and 37 has not been fulfilled with the whole nation of Israel.
Ezekiel 37:11 is the whole nation of Israel that is backslidden and their spiritual bones have to come up out of their spiritual graves v12.
You talk about Peter addressing the whole nation of Israel and he did. But this was in the early church age beginnings.
It was not a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13 for the KOH reign didn’t start at Calvary.
This is why the Catholic Church builds up the wrong doctrine of The millennial kingdom is now. That is crazy for Jesus has been risen more than 2000 years ago.
This is also why your group has to build up a straw man with the Spiritual Jew doctrine to the extreme. This is ridiculous because the restoration of Israel is due to national repentance to receive the KoH reign at the Head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7.
In case you didn’t know the nation of Israel is still backslidden and the KoH reign has not started yet.

9. James 1:1-3 is talking the scattered tribes of Israel in the church age that needed to be exhorted and it doesn’t go with the timing of the Ezekiel passage or the KoH message with the whole nation of Israel.

10. The Davidic covenant of the Kingdom for the nation of Israel is future and is forever.
The first 1000 Years is the millennial kingdom and it’s purpose is to get rid of sin and rebellion 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
After that is the KoG all in all when the Son gives the Kingdom back to the Father v28.
This is when the KoG begins to tabernacle with God Revelation 21:3.
The David Kingdom is eternal Isaiah 9:6-7.

11. Matthew 1:1 Christ is the descendant and will be the overall ruler of the KoH reign.

12. King David will rule forever on the throne of Israel and Christ will still be the potentate of the earthly kingdom Isaiah 9:7; Ezekiel 37:25.
Christ will still be overall ruler.

13. Ezekiel 37:26:27 are a physical sanctuary and tabernacle.
Christ will be their God and they shall be his people.

14. John 5:27-30: Christ will execute Judgement on the Day of the Lord which is the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-21 and not the pre-Tribute rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 when we will ever be with the Lord and go Heaven where he prepared our mansions John 14:2-3.
Verses 28-29 are saying the resurrection of the good and bad will happen when the our come.
This is not a time factor for both saints and sinners to be resurrected at the same time. Why? Because of Revelation 20:4-6 is where the 1st and 2nd Resurrections are 1000 years apart.
V 30 his judgement is just.
Judgement at Armageddon is being killed. Judgement at Resurrection for the righteous is Revelation 15:1-2 before the 7 vials and punishment on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.
The Second death is a 1000 Years later and that judgement will be at the GWTJ.

15. Proper context and proper time factor shows you are wrong about fulfillment of the Second Advent according to the scripture.
You need to study the feasts more to understand about the trumpets. Jerry kelso

Riberra said:

''The pre-tribulation rapture''--- ''the secret rapture''---or ''the rapture of the wise virgins to Heaven before the tribulation'' is not mentioned in the Old Testament NOR in the New Testament.That is pure invention coming from John Nelson Darby in 1830....and Margaret Mac Donald 1830 satanic vision of the so called wise virgins being raptured to Heaven before the tribulation while the rest of the Church goes through the tribulation.
YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED AND BEEN TOTALLY BRAINWASHED BY A VERY SEDUCING AND VERY APPEALING FABLE.

Hint: extra oil is needed to light a lamp more longer (not more brighter)....the parable of the 10 virgins is to tell us that the bridegroom will not come early as in any moments ...Only the 5 wise virgins were prepared for a long wait...and were ready when the bridegroom FINALLY CAME AT MIDNIGHT.
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

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Here's your problem......you can prove there is a prewrath or post tribulation rapture. Therefore you think you are correct. Proving that there is a post tribulation rapture is not proof there will not be a pretribulation rapture.

I can cut all your arguments to pieces because I also know that there is a post rapture. There you are quoting Rev 16 pinpointing the time Jesus will come as a thief. Jesus also pinpoints his coming with this verse.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How is it Jesus then says
Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Hey wait a minute Jesus......you just told us when you were coming. How can you now tell us we won't know when you are coming?

The bottom line of it all is that you are in a cult that believes that the church is Israel. It was a lack of faith and understanding that God was going to keep his word and restore Israel as a nation that produced this cult. God is fully capable of doing exactly what he says he will do. He doesn't need our help making his word come to pass. There will come a time when the third temple will be rebuilt. Then what are you going to believe. Are you going to stick to the same nonsense....business as usual? Wake up and run far.

jerry kelso said:

So you are out of context and cannot reconcile Matthew 24:31 and 37-38 together properly with your rapture on the Day of the Lord. Jerry kelso

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Matthew 24:37-38 talk about the destruction of the wicked that will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS IN GLORY , this is in direct reference to the coming of Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31.

Choose Wisely said:

Here's your problem......you can prove there is a prewrath or post tribulation rapture. Therefore you think you are correct. Proving that there is a post tribulation rapture is not proof there will not be a pretribulation rapture.`

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The only Coming of Jesus in the CLOUDS yet to happen, is cited by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 --- to occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

Choose Wisely said:

I can cut all your arguments to pieces because I also know that there is a post rapture. There you are quoting Revelation 16:15-16 pinpointing the time Jesus will come as a thief. Jesus also pinpoints his coming with this verse Matthew 24:29-31

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Choose Wisely said:

How is it Jesus then says
Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Hey wait a minute Jesus......you just told us when you were coming. How can you now tell us we won't know when you are coming?

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Even with what is written in Revelation 16:15-16 about Jesus coming as a thief, there is no way that you can pinpoint the precise Day and Hour.Do you ?

---Your surprise (and demise), will be that you expect Jesus Coming BEFORE the Tribulation while Jesus Himself said that He Will Come In the CLOUDS AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS --- Matthew 24:29-31

Choose Wisely said:

The bottom line of it all is that you are in a cult that believes that the church is Israel.

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The Church is made of Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.Thus the promises made to Abraham about the faithful Jews who obey God will be accessible to the faithful gentiles as well.

Choose Wisely said:

It was a lack of faith and understanding that God was going to keep his word and restore Israel as a nation that produced this cult. God is fully capable of doing exactly what he says he will do. He doesn't need our help making his word come to pass. There will come a time when the third temple will be rebuilt. Then what are you going to believe. Are you going to stick to the same nonsense....business as usual? Wake up and run far.

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God will effectively keep His Word and doing what is WRITTEN ...''not what you believe is written between the lines like a ''secret coming to rapture the wise virgins''.

Have you ever wondered why ALL the predictions made by the pre-tribulation rapture believers camp since 1830 about the Coming of Jesus have failed ?....the answer is simple: Jesus said HIMSELF that He WILL COME AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS Matthew 24:29-31.

Edited to fix a quote and cut some text for clarity.

Riberra said:

The only Coming of Jesus in the CLOUDS yet to happen, is cited by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 --- to occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

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What proof can you provide that there will be only one coming. Is your proof that there will be a time when some will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man and not see it? No that couldn't be the proof. That would only prove that there will be more than one day of the Son of Man. Is your proof that there is an early summer grain harvest and a fall fruit harvest. No that would only prove there is more than one harvest which kind of messes things up for you. Is your proof that Pentecost is a harvest feast and the Feast of Trumpets is a harvest feast......two harvest feasts? No, you need only one harvest feast to prove He is only coming once. Maybe it's that when He returns it will be like the days of Noah. But wait, likewise also it will be like the days of Lot. Well that's confusing because Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood but the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. You need only one example of His coming, not two. Maybe it's those two silver trumpets that Moses was instructed to make to assemble the people. No, that doesn't work either.
I can't figure it out, I need your help. What proof do you have that He is only coming once.

Even with what is written in Revelation 16:15-16 about Jesus coming as a thief, there is no way that you can pinpoint the precise Day and Hour.Do you ?

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We have been instructed to watch because we do not know when He is coming. I suspect there will be many waiting until they see the signs of the sun, moon and stars. I don't think that would be a good idea as we have no proof that He is only coming once............unless of course you can provide proof that I am unaware of.

---Your surprise will be that you expect Jesus Coming BEFORE the Tribulation while Jesus Himself said that He Will Come In the CLOUDS AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS --- Matthew 24:29-31

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I realize that He will be coming in the clouds after the tribulation of those days. Your surprise will be when He comes in an hour that you do not expect. Why would we need to watch if we are told this.
1Thes 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
We are told to watch because we are also told that the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. I suggest you watch as instructed.

The Church is made of Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

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True and yet we see 144,000 first fruits.........12000 from each tribe. First fruits are a guarantee of a harvest. If the first fruits are pumpkins......the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the first fruits are of the twelve tribe....the harvest will be of the 12 tribes. Israel will become jealous likely after they realize that the church has been harvested on Pentecost........a harvest feast. Israel will be regrafted and there is nothing any of you can do to keep God from keeping His promise.

God will effectively keep His Word and doing what is WRITTEN ...''not what you believe is written between the lines like a ''secret coming to rapture the wise virgins''.

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I find it amazing that someone who believes in replacement theology would make that statement. Isn't it time that you start believing what is written.

Have you ever wondered why ALL the predictions made by the pre-tribulation rapture believers camp since 1830 about the Coming of Jesus have failed ?....the answer is simple: Jesus said HIMSELF that He WILL COME AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS Matthew 24:29-31.

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No, I don't wonder that because we are told that no man knows the day nor the hour...........only the Father knows. I wonder why anyone would be stupid enough to make a prediction.

Choose Wisely said:

What proof can you provide that there will be only one coming. Is your proof that there will be a time when some will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man and not see it? No that couldn't be the proof. That would only prove that there will be more than one day of the Son of Man.

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The apostles have seen the FIRST COMING of Jesus while they were alive...and Jesus said that they will not see His Second Coming during their lifetime.

Do the math :there is ONLY ONE coming of Jesus yet to come.

Choose Wisely said:

No, I don't wonder that because we are told that no man knows the day nor the hour...........only the Father knows. I wonder why anyone would be stupid enough to make a prediction.

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Lot and lot of peoples:
Have you already forget the recent FAILED predictions on this board about the Red Blood Moon Rapture (2014-2015)or the 23 Sept. 2017 alignment in Virgo ?
List of failed predictions:
Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

Here a prediction made by your guru John Nelson Darby:
-Darby saw the invention of the telegraph as a sign that the end of the world was approaching; he called the telegraph an invention of Cain and a harbinger of Armageddon
John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia