Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

seventysevens · Apr 21, 2018

BABerean2 said:
it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not.

.

No it does not matter if a person is circumcised or not.
Clearly Jesus was indeed speaking to Israel !

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'

In the OT Almighty God fought the battles for Israel , he sent the prophets to Israel , and it is
the descendants of Israel that Jesus is speaking to-
but you refuse to acknowledge these facts because of your biased preference

Postvieww · Apr 21, 2018

seventysevens said:
None of those were resurrected from the dead buried in the graves for decades or centuries as were those that Jesus resurrected those that rose from the buried graves

No not for centuries but while Lazarus was in a coma he began to rot. How did you determine who was in the group of Mattt.27 and how long they had been dead? I must have missed that in the text.

seventysevens said:
You just getting desperate
Consider what we call a coma in today's world
, people who look dead , unconscious , they are not really dead - but people back in bible days would say they are dead and if Elijah or some anointed person touched them and healed them and they awoke being healed, that is not a resurrection of the dead

I am desperate and you do not believe the Holy Spirit knows the difference between a dead person and one in a comma??? My friend if the scripture says they were dead you can bank on it.

Now you are correct on one point here, those in my list were not resurrected as in the resurrection when Christ returns. They were “healed” from death if you prefer, but they were dead and not just in a coma.

Postvieww · Apr 21, 2018

Copperhead said:
That's ok. Was just pointing out what seemed to be the obvious that these of Matt 27 were the only ones compared to that list you posted that were saints, either directly named as such or implied. Since they were considered saints, I think the "die once" thing kicks in. The others, technically, were not resurrected, they were restored to life.

Actually :

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Applies to all “men” not just saints. Since some men have died and been raise just maybe we have misunderstood or misapplied this passage. Maybe it could just mean eventually all men will die except for those saints of course alive when Christ returns. Maybe all of us should be more careful of how we dogmatically apply some scriptures with our own interpretations.

Copperhead said:
Dr. J Vernon McGee, the thru the Bible teacher, addressed this same issue on one of his Q&A sessions. He took the same position, except for some minor differences, as I have stated. He thought these saints were taken to be with the Lord by Yeshua also. The only difference between him and I on this was that he feel these saints were recognized by others. I do not. Nothing in the text suggests they were known. Only that they appeared to others.

My friend you are free to believe that, but I stand by my original post. The text does not say or imply that.

We don’t know who they were other than “many bodies of the saints that slept”, We don’t know how long they had been dead, centuries or hours before Christ’s resurrection. We don’t know where they went other than they “appeared unto many” in the Holy City. We are not told they went to heaven which is really the point that was trying to be proved by using this text.

You are free to ASSUME anything you like.

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2018

seventysevens said:
No it does matter if a person is circumcised or not.
Clearly Jesus was indeed speaking to Israel !

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'

In the OT Almighty God fought the battles for Israel , he sent the prophets to Israel , and it is
the descendants of Israel that Jesus is speaking to-
but you refuse to acknowledge these facts because of your biased preference

"Who is Israel" by Pastor Matt Furse

https://www.amazon.com/Who-Israel-M...qid=1524312247&sr=8-2&keywords=Who+is+Israel?
.

Copperhead · Apr 21, 2018

Postvieww said:
My friend you are free to believe that, but I stand by my original post. The text does not say or imply that.

I agree with that generalization. No conflict. I only stated what Christian writers that knew the Apostles or Disciples of them had to say on the matter. And a comment from a contemporary theologian. And they felt that the these resurrected in Matt 27 were removed, not to go thru the dying process again. What we think about it has very little bearing, really, since we were not there like those early writers.

jgr said:
Then when you say "...He will not return till Israel acknowledges Him...", you must admit that you don't know whom you're referring to, since you've just said that only "the Lord will know".

A doctrine based on someone that you cannot scripturally identify, cannot be a scriptural doctrine.

I must admit nothing. I did not express any doctrine, especially on who Israel is, which seems to be the argument going on with others. I quoted the verses and commented on how I see them. And they seem to be pretty straight forward. No having to beat the text with a 2x4 to get it to confess to something that really isn't there. And it clearly is intended for Israel, AKA Hebrews or Jews.

And there is no way that could be any other group, like the Church, who wants to make themselves Israel. The Church did not reject Messiah before His death in Matt 23. The Church didn't even exist as an entity yet. The Jewish leadership did and it was who He was addressing.

And it is very clear what conditions were required of them to see Him again. They would have to say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord". A clear reference in scripture for the Messiah. And He was referencing Hosea 5:15. It is so clear as to be crystal. No slight of hands, no trick play on the words, etc.

As for the group, it will be Israel and Israel's leadership. They are the ones who rejected Yeshua and He was addressing. So... simple... there will need to be a Jewish national identity in place with national leadership. The same like those that rejected Him will need to petition Him to return.

Who or what that group is or isn't really isn't up to us or our suppositions on the matter. As John the Baptist, Yeshua's cousin, stated one time.....

Matthew 3:8-9 (NKJV) Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

seventysevens · Apr 21, 2018

Postvieww said:
I am desperate and you do not believe the Holy Spirit knows the difference between a dead person and one in a comma??? My friend if the scripture says they were dead you can bank on it.

Now you are correct on one point here, those in my list were not resurrected as in the resurrection when Christ returns. They were “healed” from death if you prefer, but they were dead and not just in a coma.

Lets look at what God has given us - discernment
Scripture- the Holy Spirit does not provide the full details of who they were or how long they were dead ,
but consider that they were in graves - surely those who were resurrected and went into cities to talk with people were not limited to just a 72 hour time frame of when Jesus died. There were many people who came out of their graves

Consider that you were dead - , then suddenly and unexpectedly you find yourself now once again alive on earth walking and talking on earth again - we do see that the man who was blind and was healed by Jesus was excited about now he can see and was telling people about it-

it is most likely that if you were dead and now alive walking on earth that you would be telling people how amazing it is that you are now again alive and that Jesus is the reason you are alive again proving he does have power or death , that it is not only Jesus that overcame death but that those who believe in Almighty God will be raised to life again just as Jesus said he would -you being alive is evidence that Jesus is who he claimed He Is

The HS does not tell us who those people were - do you think he did not know who they were or just decided it was not necessary to tell us ?

Jesus told John that there will be Two Witnesses that come to Israel in the future - do you think Jesus did not know who those Two witnesses would be or maybe Jesus decided not to reveal who they were as it was not necessary to tell John

- imagine the controversy that would have taken place if Jesus had told John who they would be
The HS knew who the Man of Lawless is , but chose not to reveal who it is , just as He chose not to reveal who the 666 refers to - the point is -

Consider that medical science had not developed yet so that people of that day who had no medical understanding of what a coma is , How can the HS tell someone of a coma if they do not know what that is?

They were unaware of simply washing their hands under running water would save lives of babies when they are born until a King passed a law that what was in scripture to be put into practice and after that the death rate of new born babies dropped dramatically , so the scripture spoke of it , but until it was put into practice the people did not understand that such a simple thing could save so many lives
You should give consideration that people in those days did not understand that people could be in a vegetative state and still be alive - it was not the HS that told the writers of scripture if a person was dead or not - the HS inspired the writings , not dictated them -
This is a topic that the scripture does not provide enough data to prove 100% one way or another

seventysevens · Apr 21, 2018

BABerean2 said:
"Who is Israel"

You choose to replace Israel -
You refuse to understand
You have no understanding of why Israel became a nation again

You have no understanding of why Israel is where Jesus will come back to when He returns

You have no understanding of why Jerusalem is the reborn nation of Israel capital city

You have no understanding of why God said that Jerusalem will be the burdensome stone

You have no understanding of why God said a time of Jacobs(Israel) time of trouble

You have no understanding of why Hebrew is now becoming the reborn nation of Israel primary language
You have no understanding
All you have is an agenda ,Nothing more than that

Postvieww · Apr 21, 2018

seventysevens said:
This is a topic that the scripture does not provide enough data to prove 100% one way or another

Thank you for agreeing with my original point!

seventysevens · Apr 21, 2018

Postvieww said:
Thank you for agreeing with my original point!

You went through all that to simply agree with my point

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2018

seventysevens said:
You have no understanding of why Israel became a nation again

When a man sits down and explains how his family used the political process to create the modern State of Israel, what part of that do you not understand?

.

Copperhead · Apr 21, 2018

BABerean2 said:
When a man sits down and explains how his family used the political process to create the modern State of Israel, what part of that do you not understand?

.

It could be that they influenced the establishment of the modern state of Israel. So what. Cyrus of Persia was instrumental in allowing the people of Israel to return from exile in Babylon and reestablish their homeland. Allowing them to do so and also providing some material support to do it. And God went so far as to say Cyrus was His anointed. So the Lord can use others to accomplish His goals.

You ought to do a study on Ezekiel 4 in conjunction with Leviticus 26 in light of historical events.

Major1 · Apr 21, 2018

Coleton Bryce Ritmanich said:
It's kinda hard to argue with anyone here because there is always some truth and scripture to back it up. The truth is I kind of want a rapture to happen. But I'm seeing here scripture going up against scripture, when that happens it could lead to a conflict, but God did not write his truth to go against itself, which means at least one person here is using a Scripture in a different context than it's meant. If we elect to pick and choose our verses, and only say part of what they mean, then that means we are already becoming a stumbling block to each other and everyone who sees this.
I've already said everything I was willing to argue about before, but ultimately it's to each his or her own beliefs.
The core problem I see, looking at all of this and even some of my posts last night sadly, is that you people are still arguing, and worse you're using scripture to argue. That's NOT what Jesus would want. Not at all.
A Christian is supposed to love, he or she is supposed to be a little Christ. But I'm not seeing that here.
Not from my old posts either.
SO I have only this to say here, I love all of you because Jesus Loves You. And Because what Jesus would do in this situation is leave the thread alone, because it's causing strife and separation, that's what I'm going to do.
Peace and Love to you all
Goodbye for now.
-Coleton

A good comment and I agree with you. Anyone, "ME" included can pick out any Scripture in the Bible and MAKE IT SAY WHAT I WANT IT TO SAY.

I call that "Burger King" theology...........You can have it YOUR way!

However, that is not correct exegesis and it excludes CONTEXT and focus. That kind of cherry picking Scripture ALWAYS leads to error because the foundation of anyone ones thinking is not rooted in the Scriptures but in their own imagination instead of the Bible itself.

To correctly divide the Word of God it must be done based on WHAT THE Scriptures actually say and not what we want them to say and if we are shown to be wrong in our thinking then it is US who must change and come to understand what the Scriptures say.

Major1 · Apr 21, 2018

Copperhead said:
It could be that they influenced the establishment of the modern state of Israel. So what. Cyrus of Persia was instrumental in allowing the people of Israel to return from exile in Babylon and reestablish their homeland. Allowing them to do so and also providing some material support to do it. And God went so far as to say Cyrus was His anointed. So the Lord can use others to accomplish His goals.

You ought to do a study on Ezekiel 4 in conjunction with Leviticus 26 in light of historical events.

Just to agree with you and confirm what you have said, Many very smart scholars have made the fact known that WW1 "Prepared the Land" and WW2 "Prepared the Jews" for the Land.

All of that involved a lot of people as we saw Israel become a sate on May 14, 1048 as God then place His people in the Land. That act then allow ed God's prophetic clock to one again move forward as now all the things that God said would take, CAN NOW TAKE PLACE.

Major1 · Apr 21, 2018

seventysevens said:
Very good point !
Like Judas when it dawned on him the kiss and betrayal of Jesus to the Sanhedrin for 30 silver coins

Yes.......Exactly!

It says to me that of course he was never saved to begin with.

I can see that after the Rapture, that certainly could be the actions of a lot of people because once they realize that the Rapture, just like Jesus it was the REAL THING and they missed it because they were never saved to begin with either. They can then NOT BE SAVED after the Rapture event because they refused the Sacrifice of God and there then remains no more left for them.

jgr · Apr 21, 2018

Copperhead said:
I agree with that generalization. No conflict. I only stated what Christian writers that knew the Apostles or Disciples of them had to say on the matter. And a comment from a contemporary theologian. And they felt that the these resurrected in Matt 27 were removed, not to go thru the dying process again. What we think about it has very little bearing, really, since we were not there like those early writers.

I must admit nothing. I did not express any doctrine, especially on who Israel is, which seems to be the argument going on with others. I quoted the verses and commented on how I see them. And they seem to be pretty straight forward. No having to beat the text with a 2x4 to get it to confess to something that really isn't there. And it clearly is intended for Israel, AKA Hebrews or Jews.

And there is no way that could be any other group, like the Church, who wants to make themselves Israel. The Church did not reject Messiah before His death in Matt 23. The Church didn't even exist as an entity yet. The Jewish leadership did and it was who He was addressing.

And it is very clear what conditions were required of them to see Him again. They would have to say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord". A clear reference in scripture for the Messiah. And He was referencing Hosea 5:15. It is so clear as to be crystal. No slight of hands, no trick play on the words, etc.

As for the group, it will be Israel and Israel's leadership. They are the ones who rejected Yeshua and He was addressing. So... simple... there will need to be a Jewish national identity in place with national leadership. The same like those that rejected Him will need to petition Him to return.

Who or what that group is or isn't really isn't up to us or our suppositions on the matter. As John the Baptist, Yeshua's cousin, stated one time.....

Matthew 3:8-9 (NKJV) Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Every reference to the Church is a reference to a group of people scripturally identifiable by faith and obedience in and to their Redeemer, who have borne fruit worthy of repentance. (Matthew 3:8).

Those who claim to be Israel through Abrahamic descendance have the spiritual significance to God of stones on the ground. (Matthew 3:9)

It is self-evident which group is the true Chosen People.

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2018

Major1 said:
All of that involved a lot of people as we saw Israel become a sate on May 14, 1048 as God then place His people in the Land.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Nobody's relationship to God is based on who their earthly mother and father would be, based on the text found above.

God's people do not reject His Son.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

.

Copperhead · Apr 21, 2018

jgr said:
Every reference to the Church is a reference to a group of people scripturally identifiable by faith and obedience in and to their Redeemer, who have borne fruit worthy of repentance. (Matthew 3:8).

Those who claim to be Israel through Abrahamic descendance have the spiritual significance to God of stones on the ground. (Matthew 3:9)

It is self-evident which group is the true Chosen People.

But there is a distinct difference between the Ecclesia and Israel. Both are holy, or set apart to God's purpose, but they also have unique and different destinies. The Ecclesia is made up of only believers in Yeshua. Israel is made up of both believing and unbelieving Hebrews. The Ecclesia is made up of those who have personally selected to join themselves with Yeshua. Israel, one is born into it, it is not by a person electing to be part of it.

One can be part of the Root of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, their type of faith. That is the required type of faith Messiah requires. We are joined with Abraham by faith in Yeshua, and by extension, the true faith of Israel. But we are not physically joined with literal Israel.

jgr · Apr 21, 2018

Copperhead said:
Israel, one is born into it, it is not by a person electing to be part of it.

OK, that is a clarification. You are defining Israel in terms of ethnicity.

A pivotal issue requiring resolution is that of who comprised covenant Israel from the very beginning. The answer is seen in Genesis 17:12:
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

That is, the criteria to enter into covenant relationship with God under the old covenant with Israel were not determined by ethnicity, but rather by faith and obedience in and to God and His covenant conditions.

Ethnicity was not a criterion.

Conversely:

Hebrews 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Ethnicity was insufficient for survival if faith and obedience were abandoned. The numerous OT accounts where God slew ethnic Israelites by the thousands when they disbelieved and disobeyed further convincingly confirm the inefficacy and irrelevance of ethnicity.

Thus to attempt to define Israel today in terms of ethnicity is to fail to recognize that, from the very beginning, the conditions for a covenant relationship with God and His Son have only ever been faith and obedience, and nothing else.

Today, it is exclusively the Church who are the Chosen People who meet those conditions.

Copperhead · Apr 21, 2018

All sounds good. But you forgot the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. it is not for the decedents adhering or not adhering to faith in God that is the deciding factor in all of this, it is God's faithfulness to the promises He made to the patriarchs and confirmed them as long as sun shines, the moon gives forth light, the waves roar on the shore, etc. Jeremiah 31.

And Ezekiel says that they as a nation would be restored first in unbelief, without the Spirit of God in them. But He would then breath life into them. This is before the final cataclysmic days of the end times.

And Yeshua and Hosea stated clearly that national Israel must acknowledge their rejection of Yeshua and call for His return before He would. Obviously, many individual Hebrews have accepted Yeshua over the centuries. But Israel as a national entity has not. This is is the crux of the issue. HaSatan has used every means possible to exterminate the Hebrews from the earth so that there are none to petition the Lord's return.

Isaiah said that Israel would be gathered a second time. And a careful study of Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26 shows us when.

keras · Apr 21, 2018

Copperhead said:
Isaiah himself said that Israel would be gathered a second time. And a careful study of Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26 shows us when.

Your determination to have an ethnic group of Israel, conflicts with all Bible teaching on this matter, as jgr has made clear.
Israel is simply a word that describes the Overcomers for God, as the original man; Jacob was and his descendant Jesus is.
The idea of the Jews still being God's chosen people, is just a construct of the 'rapture' believers. Quite un-Biblical and the only people of God, His Israelite people, are those who have believed in Him and accepted His Sons atoning sacrifice; NOW.

Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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