Total Depravity

everbecoming2007

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I'm just trying to get a sense of how many Anglicans here and in general believe in Calvin's doctrine of Total Depravity and whether this doctrine is taught in the Articles.

I cannot comment too much as I am still delving into Catholic and various Protestant understandings of justification, sanctification, and the process of salvation and finding it interesting but complicated.
 

Radagast

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I'm just trying to get a sense of how many Anglicans here and in general believe in Calvin's doctrine of Total Depravity and whether this doctrine is taught in the Articles.

Articles IX and X were written under the influence of Calvinism generally and Total Depravity in particular, but in modern times these articles are interpreted in various ways.

Anglicans in Sydney, Australia would be Calvinist, as would many Anglicans in Africa.

I would think Calvinist Episcopalians in the US would be rare.
 
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Paidiske

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If by total depravity, you mean that every person is affected by sin, and is unable to overcome that by their own efforts, I'd agree with that.

I gather that this is developed in particular ways by particular groups, some of which I would agree with and some not, but to be honest, beyond being clear about where I stand, it's not an area in which I'm expert. Debating very fine points of this seems to be an obsession with some American Christians, to a point I find quite foreign.
 
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everbecoming2007

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If by total depravity, you mean that every person is affected by sin, and is unable to overcome that by their own efforts, I'd agree with that.

I gather that this is developed in particular ways by particular groups, some of which I would agree with and some not, but to be honest, beyond being clear about where I stand, it's not an area in which I'm expert. Debating very fine points of this seems to be an obsession with some American Christians, to a point I find quite foreign.

I am still trying to figure out what it does mean. I gather thus far that both Catholics and Calvinists believe God acts first in our salvation, but they are not agreed on total depravity.

I am not sure the Articles do either -- they teach that we are very far gone from original righteousness, but not utterly.

I will be reading more in the meantime so as to better understand and contribute to the thread topic.
 
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Haipule

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I'm just trying to get a sense of how many Anglicans here and in general believe in Calvin's doctrine of Total Depravity and whether this doctrine is taught in the Articles.

I cannot comment too much as I am still delving into Catholic and various Protestant understandings of justification, sanctification, and the process of salvation and finding it interesting but complicated.
Yes, it is complicated but, need not be.

I am no fan of Calvin! But, 'justification' is mostly a Catholic idea. The problem is that the Greek word dikE is one word but can be translated into Latin, and English, by both the words 'just' and 'right'.

"Just", "justified", "justification" are forensic, or legal terms, which is where "legalism" stems from. Whereas the word is mostly used by the writers of Scripture to refer to 'right'(dikE), 'righteous'(dikaios), 'righteousness'(dikaiosunE). You see, we are not "justified". Rather, we are rightified and redeemed(purchased) by the death of Jesus.

Before Luther and Calvin, the argument among Catholics was, "How is a man 'justified'". Before Luther, a man named Jas Hus argued that a "man is 'justified' by grace through faith" according to Ephesians 2:8-9. For that, Jas(John) was burned at the stake.

A better word for hagiosmos translated as "sanctification" is purification.

hagiasmos

To be a purified person is called in Greek “hagiasmos” which means the resultant state of purification, or being pure, which is because you have been cleaned and purified through breathing God’s very own pure pneuma-breath(the theopnustos: God-breathed Scripture) and therefore, a class separated from a class! Therefore, your life becomes a result of that purification or “hagiasmos”. hagiasmos is a noun usually translated into the English as “sanctification” or “holiness(whatever that means)” which, according to most, is to say “being separated unto God” but, hagiasmos means far more then “separation”. In fact, we cannot proceed forward in our understanding of Scripture unless we bring the whole concept of being purified with us in any direction of our study of God’s word. If we say that hagiasmos means merely separation then we have killed that vast word by limiting it to the limit of our own intellect. hagiasmos is built from the root word “hagios” which is usually translated in your English bibles as “holy”. Man has invented many words and concepts to try to help us understand that very weird word “holy”. But hagios means pure, undefiled, unpolluted which makes it unique. So start there so you don’t get sidetracked by those other “college words” such as “holy”, “holiness” or “consecration”. Often hagios is translated as “saint” but actually means “pure-one” and therefore, a unique class. Again, the resultant state of being pure is from the resultant state of being cleansed(through study).

The "process of salvation" is complicated by the French word salvation which is a transliteration of the Latin word salvationem. Neither of which translate the Greek word sOtEria which means: deliverance, preservation, rescue, save, keep safe and sound, make whole, etc, etc, etc. It is a very general word describing what God does for us, every moment of everyday if we can place are trust(translated as faith) in Him every moment of everyday!

The bible gives us instructions for how to live the zOE-life of God's promised joy in the absence of strife(eirEnE: peace) every moment of everyday which requires trust(pistos) and not (blind)"faith".

It is not complicated. However, man has spent 2,000 years sense, complicating the hell out of it!
 
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Radagast

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If by total depravity, you mean that every person is affected by sin, and is unable to overcome that by their own efforts, I'd agree with that.

That's, in essence, what the doctrine says. To quote this guy:

"In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity ... the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin."

There were, btw, a number of Anglican delegates at the Synod of Dort, which clarified this doctrine in 1618/19.
 
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Haipule

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That's, in essence, what the doctrine says. To quote this guy:

"In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity ... the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin."

There were, btw, a number of Anglican delegates at the Synod of Dort, which clarified this doctrine in 1618/19.
Aloha again:

Geez! I hate the word "sin"! Really, from the Latin word sinistra which means: left-hand. Also where we get the English word 'sinister' (which in Latin means "left-eye"). They shortened it down to "sin" and teach the whole world about "sin"?

There is absolutely no list of "sins" in the entire bible!

Truly, "sin" means whatever anyone says it means to as many whom are dumb enough to listen to them!

There are only three things in the entire bible that are "sins"(off-course): whatever is not of faith(trust) and whatever is not of righteousness(right thing, right way), sexual misconduct(unauthorized sex)--that's it!

The Greek word translated as "sin" is hamartia which literally refers to the errant flight of an arrow flung from a bow without any concern for the harm it may cause self and/or others. A good example of that is David and Bathsheba.

It figuratively means: miss, off-course, wayward, sidetracked, etc. That's why John said, "It is impossible to 'sin'". That is, to miss, be amiss, be off-course, be wayward, be sidetracked, if Jesus is the Shepherd leading(duh!).

ergoi tEn sarks translated: "deeds of the flesh" are just that: deeds, works, employment performance, occupation of the flesh and NOT 'sins". This is proven by James who said, "When lust(a deed of the flesh) conceives it give birth to "sin"(hamartia)" and when that errant arrow reaches it's target, brings forth death. Just ask David if James is lying!

In the Hebrew Older Testament(covenants) the Word translated as “sin” is the feminine noun chatta’ath and means the same as the Greek feminine noun hamartia: an errant arrow flung from a bow--miss.

Side by Side: "But if you(-all) will not do so, behold, you(-all) have sinned(miss) against the LORD(to-LORD, Master God), and be sure(and-know-you-all) your sin(miss-of-you-all) [which] (she, the errant arrow)will find you(-all) [out](the word “out” was added). Num 32:23 NASB

Hyper Literal(same verse): And-if not you-all-are-doing, so behold!, you-all-miss to-YaHWeH(LORD, Master God) and(-also)-know-you-all(be sure) miss(errant arrow)-of-you-all which she(errant arrow)-shall-find >> you-all(i.e., self seeking missile, another fine shot--stupid!). Num 32:23

What is the "sin"(hamartia) unto death? An errant lifestyle(drugs, alcohol abuse, crime) that will lead a person to his death(duh!).

By the way, Jesus did not die FOR your "sins"(whatever that means). Rather, it says that Jesus died OVER(huper) our hamartia, that fact that all mankind was amiss because of the parabasis(motion against a fixed point or standard--not "sin"!) of Adam which made all mankind paraptOma(beyond a line which had an effect such as to be in a fallen state).

You didn't do that--Adam did! "And death reigned from Adam until Moses" when the animal offering set the things of death aside until the real offering of the life of Jesus, which death, rendered death dysfunctional!

The picture given is the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat made of gold that covered the hamartia/parabasis/paraptOma of man hidden inside the ark.

hamartia/parabasis/paraptOma
all have to do with where you are going and not what you are doing!

I have been a "sinner"(substantive adjective: amiss-one) but, I am no longer blown off-course! Jesus is my Point Man and God! The only thing I experience is being at the perfect place at the perfect time in history to be in perfect places! Such is the kingdom(King, not kingdom; Rulership, not realm; Dominion, not domain) of heaven/God! A pearl of great price!
 
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Naomi4Christ

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Aloha again:

Geez! I hate the word "sin"! Really, from the Latin word sinistra which means: left-hand. Also where we get the English word 'sinister' (which in Latin means "left-eye"). They shortened it down to "sin" and teach the whole world about "sin"?

There is absolutely no list of "sins" in the entire bible!

Truly, "sin" means whatever anyone says it means to as many whom are dumb enough to listen to them!

There are only three things in the entire bible that are "sins"(off-course): whatever is not of faith(trust) and whatever is not of righteousness(right thing, right way), sexual misconduct(unauthorized sex)--that's it!

The Greek word translated as "sin" is hamartia which literally refers to the errant flight of an arrow flung from a bow without any concern for the harm it may cause self and/or others. A good example of that is David and Bathsheba.

It figuratively means: miss, off-course, wayward, sidetracked, etc. That's why John said, "It is impossible to 'sin'". That is, to miss, be amiss, be off-course, be wayward, be sidetracked, if Jesus is the Shepherd leading(duh!).

ergoi tEn sarks translated: "deeds of the flesh" are just that: deeds, works, employment performance, occupation of the flesh and NOT 'sins". This is proven by James who said, "When lust(a deed of the flesh) conceives it give birth to "sin"(hamartia)" and when that errant arrow reaches it's target, brings forth death. Just ask David if James is lying!

In the Hebrew Older Testament(covenants) the Word translated as “sin” is the feminine noun chatta’ath and means the same as the Greek feminine noun hamartia: an errant arrow flung from a bow--miss.

Side by Side: "But if you(-all) will not do so, behold, you(-all) have sinned(miss) against the LORD(to-LORD, Master God), and be sure(and-know-you-all) your sin(miss-of-you-all) [which] (she, the errant arrow)will find you(-all) [out](the word “out” was added). Num 32:23 NASB

Hyper Literal(same verse): And-if not you-all-are-doing, so behold!, you-all-miss to-YaHWeH(LORD, Master God) and(-also)-know-you-all(be sure) miss(errant arrow)-of-you-all which she(errant arrow)-shall-find >> you-all(i.e., self seeking missile, another fine shot--stupid!). Num 32:23

What is the "sin"(hamartia) unto death? An errant lifestyle(drugs, alcohol abuse, crime) that will lead a person to his death(duh!).

By the way, Jesus did not die FOR your "sins"(whatever that means). Rather, it says that Jesus died OVER(huper) our hamartia, that fact that all mankind was amiss because of the parabasis(motion against a fixed point or standard--not "sin"!) of Adam which made all mankind paraptOma(beyond a line which had an effect such as to be in a fallen state).

You didn't do that--Adam did! "And death reigned from Adam until Moses" when the animal offering set the things of death aside until the real offering of the life of Jesus, which death, rendered death dysfunctional!

The picture given is the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat made of gold that covered the hamartia/parabasis/paraptOma of man hidden inside the ark.

hamartia/parabasis/paraptOma
all have to do with where you are going and not what you are doing!

I have been a "sinner"(substantive adjective: amiss-one) but, I am no longer blown off-course! Jesus is my Point Man and God! The only thing I experience is being at the perfect place at the perfect time in history to be in perfect places! Such is the kingdom of heaven/God! A pearl of great price!

Sin is separation from God.
 
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Radagast

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I hate the word "sin"! Really, from the Latin word sinistra which means: left-hand.

Actually, "sin" is a Germanic word, cognate to the German Sünde. It has nothing to do with sinistra at all.

And yes, the Bible does frequently discuss sin, and the Greek words ἁμαρτία and ἁμαρτάνω are indeed accurately translated as sin/to sin.

When 1 Corinthians 15:3 says "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (Χριστὸς ἀπέθανεν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν κατὰτὰς γραφάς), the preposition ὑπὲρ, used with the genitive, means "for" or "on behalf of." The preposition ὑπὲρ only means "above" with the accusative case (see any NT Greek textbook).
 
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St_Worm2

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I'm just trying to get a sense of how many Anglicans here and in general believe in Calvin's doctrine of Total Depravity and whether this doctrine is taught in the Articles.

I cannot comment too much as I am still delving into Catholic and various Protestant understandings of justification, sanctification, and the process of salvation and finding it interesting but complicated.
This may prove useful to you. This is from Anglican theologian, Dr. J I Packer (from two small sections of his book called Concise Theology, on the subjects of both Original Sin and Inability).

ORIGINAL SIN
DEPRAVITY INFECTS EVERYONE

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

PSALMS 51:5

Scripture diagnoses sin as a universal deformity of human nature, found at every point in every person (1 Kings 8:46; Romans 3:9-23; Romans 7:18; 1 John 1:8-10). Both Testaments have names for it that display its ethical character as rebellion against God’s rule, missing the mark God set us to aim at, transgressing God’s law, disobeying God’s directives, offending God’s purity by defiling oneself, and incurring guilt before God the Judge. This moral deformity is dynamic: sin stands revealed as an energy of irrational, negative, and rebellious reaction to God’s call and command, a spirit of fighting God in order to play God. The root of sin is pride and enmity against God, the spirit seen in Adam’s first transgression; and sinful acts always have behind them thoughts, motives, and desires that one way or another express the willful opposition of the fallen heart to God’s claims on our lives.

Sin may be comprehensively defined as lack of conformity to the law of God in act, habit, attitude, outlook, disposition, motivation, and mode of existence. Scriptures that illustrate different aspects of sin include Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 12:30-37; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 1:18–3:20; 7:7–25; 8:5–8; 14:23 (Luther said that Paul wrote Romans to “magnify sin”); Galatians 5:16-21; Ephesians 2:1-3; Ephesians 4:17-19; Hebrews 3:12; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; John 5:17. Flesh in Paul usually means a human being driven by sinful desire; the NIV renders these instances of the word as “sinful nature.” The particular faults and vices (i.e., forms and expression of sin) that Scripture detects and denounces are too numerous to list here.

Original sin, meaning sin derived from our origin, is not a biblical phrase (Augustine coined it), but it is one that brings into fruitful focus the reality of sin in our spiritual system. The assertion of original sin means not that sin belongs to human nature as God made it (God made mankind upright, Ecclesiastes 7:29), nor that sin is involved in the processes of reproduction and birth (the uncleanness connected with menstruation, sperm, and childbirth in Leviticus 12 and 15 was typical and ceremonial only, not moral and real), but that (a) sinfulness marks everyone from birth, and is there in the form of a motivationally twisted heart, prior to any actual sins; (b) this inner sinfulness is the root and source of all actual sins; (c) it derives to us in a real though mysterious way from Adam, our first representative before God. The assertion of original sin makes the point that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin because we are sinners, born with a nature enslaved to sin.

The phrase total depravity is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be) but in extent. It declares that no part of us is untouched by sin, and therefore no action of ours is as good as it should be, and consequently nothing in us or about us ever appears meritorious in God’s eyes. We cannot earn God’s favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.
Total depravity entails total inability, that is, the state of not having it in oneself to respond to God and his Word in a sincere and wholehearted way (John 6:44; Romans 8:7-8). Paul calls this unresponsiveness of the fallen heart a state of death (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13), and the Westminster Confession says: “Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto” (IX. 3).


INABILITY
FALLEN HUMAN BEINGS ARE BOTH FREE AND ENSLAVED


The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

JEREMIAH 17:9

Clear thought about the fallen human condition requires a distinction between what for the past two centuries has been called free agency and what since the start of Christianity has been called free will. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and others spoke of free will in two senses, the first trivial, the second important; but this was confusing, and it is better always to use free agency for their first sense.

Free agency is a mark of human beings as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in the light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. Thus they are moral agents, answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices. So was Adam, both before and after he sinned; so are we now, and so are the glorified saints who are confirmed in grace in such a sense that they no longer have it in them to sin. Inability to sin will be one of the delights and glories of heaven, but it will not terminate anyone’s humanness; glorified saints will still make choices in accordance with their nature, and those choices will not be any the less the product of human free agency just because they will always be good and right.

Free will, however, has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers, and Augustine affirmed against Pelagius and most of the Greek Fathers that original sin has robbed us of free will in this sense. We have no natural ability to discern and choose God’s way because we have no natural inclination Godward; our hearts are in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free us from that slavery. This, for substance, was what Paul taught in Romans 6:16-23; only the freed will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. A permanent love of righteousness—that is, an inclination of heart to the way of living that pleases God—is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives (John 8:34-36; Galatians 5:1, Galatians 5:13).

It is worth observing that will is an abstraction. My will is not a part of me which I choose to move or not to move, like my hand or my foot; it is precisely me choosing to act and then going into action. The truth about free agency, and about Christ freeing sin’s slave from sin’s dominion, can be expressed more clearly if the word will is dropped and each person says: I am the morally responsible free agency; I am the slave of sin whom Christ must liberate; I am the fallen being who only have it in me to choose against God till God renews my heart. ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.
 
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Paidiske

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Hmm... I'd agree with most of that, but would want to phrase some of it differently, I think.

I find the emphasis on pride particularly unhelpful. I think before most of us are ever proud we are broken, and I suspect that our sinful nature is formed as much in fearfulness, in a sense of unworthiness, and in despair, as much as in pride.

That is, though, I think, something on which Scripture and Anglican understanding would give us room to disagree.

For what it's worth, in trying to define sin I can't go past 1 John 3:4; "sin is lawlessness." Since we know that the law is summed up in the two commands to love, we could unpack that as, sin is the failure to perfectly love God and others.
 
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Radagast

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Hmm... I'd agree with most of that, but would want to phrase some of it differently, I think.

Michael Bird has a shorter version in his book: "People suck, they suck in sin, they are suckness unto death. And the God who is rich in mercy takes the initiative to save people from the penalty, the power, and even the presence of this sin. This is Calvinism, the rest is commentary."
 
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Paidiske

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We probably don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of stuff, but we got on well for a while when we were both taking our children to a worship service designed for kids on the autism spectrum.
 
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Albion

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I am still trying to figure out what it does mean. I gather thus far that both Catholics and Calvinists believe God acts first in our salvation, but they are not agreed on total depravity.

I am not sure the Articles do either -- they teach that we are very far gone from original righteousness, but not utterly.
They also teach that there is nothing we can do on our own that is meritorious in the eyes of God. In fact, such efforts are condemned in Article XIII.

Unfortunately, the term total depravity is understood by the average reader in our times to mean that the person in question is completely given over to the most vicious, cruel, and depraved lifestyle imaginable, whereas it meant something else originally.
 
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JM

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I'm just trying to get a sense of how many Anglicans here and in general believe in Calvin's doctrine of Total Depravity and whether this doctrine is taught in the Articles.

I cannot comment too much as I am still delving into Catholic and various Protestant understandings of justification, sanctification, and the process of salvation and finding it interesting but complicated.

This will take some time but I would recommend attending a Book of Common Prayer service or at least watching the video below. The idea of total inability is expressed in the liturgy.


Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Naomi4Christ

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They also teach that there is nothing we can do on our own that is meritorious in the eyes of God. In fact, such efforts are condemned in Article XIII.

Unfortunately, the term total depravity is understood by the average reader in our times to mean that the person in question is completely given over to the most vicious, cruel, and depraved lifestyle imaginable, whereas it meant something else originally.

Outside of church, depravity suggests a corrupt, ultra hedonistic lifestyle. This is where well-meaning and upright and indignant people get offended.

As a Christian, however, it simply says that we are slaves to sin. This is undeniable. No matter our good intentions and weekly confessions, we can’t help ourselves. There is nothing that we can do about it. I can’t remember the Article number but it is “of original sin”, IIRC, that lays out the Anglican position.

How do we remedy being slaves to sin? By confessing our sin in the knowledge that God is merciful and just, and will pardon our sins so that we can restore a right relationship with him.
 
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Outside of church, depravity suggests a corrupt, ultra hedonistic lifestyle.

There is a move to use the term "radical corruption" instead of "total depravity." But then that "TULIP" acronym disappears, of course.
 
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