SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

BNR32FAN said:

No you misunderstood me friend. If a person isn’t saved their name is not written in the book of life. When they become saved it is written in the book of life. If they fall away their name is blotted out.

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FreeGrace has written some very solid,plausible stuff on this in this thread that I have not really considered before. So I am going to look into some things.

FreeGrace2 said:

Again, where does the Bible say so?

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Been there done that.

Grip Docility said:

I have to stop and realize the fact here... you don’t really believe Jesus death for us matters.

You don’t just dismiss it, but you go to great lengths to marginalize and erase its meaning.

You strain gnats and willingly swallow theological camels.

Not only do you not care that Jesus died for our sins and is our Propitiation... but you seek to teach others the same and work hard to ignore verse after verse that has you in utter error.

How can I say this?!?

The TRUTH will set you FREE!

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What you fail to realize is I have no respect for someone who calls a pagan Roman ritual of crucifixion the atonement God specifically spelled out for sin.

Now you rail against me with all these accusations when you asked if I knew what the Day of Atonement was. The Day of Atonement had absolutely no use for a cross. I showed you how the pagan crucifixion was NOT anything resembling the Jewish ritual of atonement.

Jesus forgave sins without any blood, without any cross, and without any kind of sacrifice. His death was not needed to forgive sins. The bloodlust of today's Christians is quite amazing, even to the point of desiring a bloody pagan, godless ritual.

EmSw said:

What you fail to realize is I have no respect for someone who calls a pagan Roman ritual of crucifixion the atonement God specifically spelled out for sin.

Now you rail against me with all these accusations when you asked if I knew what the Day of Atonement was. The Day of Atonement had absolutely no use for a cross. I showed you how the pagan crucifixion was NOT anything resembling the Jewish ritual of atonement.

Jesus forgave sins without any blood, without any cross, and without any kind of sacrifice. His death was not needed to forgive sins. The bloodlust of today's Christians is quite amazing, even to the point of desiring a bloody pagan, godless ritual.

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To call the cross of Christ profane is unfortunately a tell.

To be precise... What’s needed to be revealed has been revealed...

May Christ open your spiritual eyes! This is my prayer.

You are spouting teachings of men. I digress.

Grip Docility said:

To call the cross of Christ profane is unfortunately a tell.

To be precise... What’s needed to be revealed has been revealed...

May Christ open your spiritual eyes! This is my prayer.

You are spouting teachings of men. I digress.

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Did you know Jesus' work was finished before He went to the cross?

John 17:4
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

Did you catch that? IT WAS FINISHED! What work was left after He finished it? What work did He need to do on the cross? HE FINISHED THE WORK GOD HAD GIVEN HIM TO DO BEFORE THE CROSS!!!

I guess you don't know what 'profane' is. What is holy and sacred about the gentile Roman cross? Please show any passage in the Bible where God said He uses crosses in atonement; you know you won't find any. Altars are used within the tabernacle.

The godless, perverted Romans used crosses for punishment; the atonement is not, I repeat, IS NOT any form of punishment.

Instead of asking if I know what the Day of Atonement was, you need find out yourself what it was.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.""

OK, mr scholar. Now prove that John 2:11 included all 12 disciples.

Is this your proof that Judas was saved? A question that dodged my challenge.

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Do you agree with Grip that faith like a grain of mustard seed is needed for salvation?

Did you know Judas had little faith? So I ask you, how much faith is needed for salvation?

EmSw said:

What you fail to realize is I have no respect for someone who calls a pagan Roman ritual of crucifixion the atonement God specifically spelled out for sin.

Now you rail against me with all these accusations when you asked if I knew what the Day of Atonement was. The Day of Atonement had absolutely no use for a cross. I showed you how the pagan crucifixion was NOT anything resembling the Jewish ritual of atonement.

Jesus forgave sins without any blood, without any cross, and without any kind of sacrifice. His death was not needed to forgive sins. The bloodlust of today's Christians is quite amazing, even to the point of desiring a bloody pagan, godless ritual.

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Hebrews 9:22, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission (or, forgiveness).

Grip Docility said:

Mercy and Truth...

Without Jesus Death, Burial and Ressurection... we are all condemned...

Do you believe what you read or simply post with a dark agenda?

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Jesus did not say without His death, burial, and resurrection, a man is condemned.

Here is what condemns a man -

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation...

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:29
and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Why do you not believe what Jesus said? Why make things up that was never uttered by Jesus?

EmSw said:

Jesus did not say without His death, burial, and resurrection, a man is condemned.

Here is what condemns a man -

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation...

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:29
and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Why do you not believe what Jesus said? Why make things up that was never uttered by Jesus?

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Sir,

You do not realize how far from correct you are.

No words I speak will do any good and you read the same bible I read...

You are darkened by ideas that are spiritually dead.

Honestly... You don’t give a damn what anyone has to say to you...

That is my sincere perception.

justbyfaith said:

Hebrews 9:22, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission (or, forgiveness).

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Whoever wrote Hebrews was unfamiliar with Jesus' life and ministry on earth. I'll show you that Jesus forgave without any shedding of blood.

Matthew 6:12
And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Matthew 9:2
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Matthew 9
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

Mark 4:12
so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’

Luke 5:20
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

Luke 7:48
Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

I guess who will have to decide who to believe, Jesus, or the unknown writer of Hebrews.

Grip Docility said:

Sir,

You do not realize how far from correct you are.

No words I speak will do any good and you read the same bible I read...

You are darkened by ideas that are spiritually dead.

Honestly... You don’t give a damn what anyone has to say to you...

That is my sincere perception.

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Why am I not correct? Did the words I gave about condemnation untrue? I didn't know the word of God was spiritually dead.

Should I listen and believe you, or should I believe what is written in the word?

Grip Docility said:

Sir,

You do not realize how far from correct you are.

No words I speak will do any good and you read the same bible I read...

You are darkened by ideas that are spiritually dead.

Honestly... You don’t give a damn what anyone has to say to you...

That is my sincere perception.

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As EMSW believes Paul preached a false message, he is bound to believe the same of you. You are in good company!!

Marco70 said:

As EMSW believes Paul preached a false message, he is bound to believe the same of you. You are in good company!!

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I count EMSW and all wonderful company...

However... when it comes to promoting that the cross of Christ is ineffectual... I dare not hold my tongue.

EmSw said:

Why am I not correct? Did the words I gave about condemnation untrue? I didn't know the word of God was spiritually dead.

Should I listen and believe you, or should I believe what is written in the word?

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1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

EmSw said:

Whoever wrote Hebrews was unfamiliar with Jesus' life and ministry on earth. I'll show you that Jesus forgave without any shedding of blood.

Matthew 6:12
And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Matthew 9:2
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Matthew 9
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

Mark 4:12
so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’

Luke 5:20
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

Luke 7:48
Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

I guess who will have to decide who to believe, Jesus, or the unknown writer of Hebrews.

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The one who wrote Hebrews was a Christian in the early church. Jesus' life and ministry on earth is the basis of faith then and now; he was certainly familiar with it. What, you don't think Hebrews is inspired or relevant to this discussion? You really need to take into account 2 Timothy 3:16.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth. Peter was a disciple thus gifted of the Holy Spirit, and he gave credence to Paul's writings. See John 14:26, John 16:12-13, 2 Peter 3:15. Also, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and was filled with the Holy Ghost. Therefore to reject his writings is to reject the testimony of the Holy Ghost. That is a sin against the Holy Spirit; and the more you sin against Him, the greater the danger that you might commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Furthermore, the gospel by which we are saved is testified to in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; and if we reject the gospel which saves we are not saved and may just as well have committed the unpardonable sin because the result is the same.

I said this:
"Again, where does the Bible say so?"

BNR32FAN said:

Been there done that.

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Sure.

EmSw said:

Do you agree with Grip that faith like a grain of mustard seed is needed for salvation?

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Those who understood his wise post know that he was speaking in reference to moving mountains, not how to be saved.

Did you know Judas had little faith?

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How do you know that? Please cite your source when you make claims. Or is it, make up claims.

So I ask you, how much faith is needed for salvation?

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I've already explained it. Go review the post if you're still confused.

EmSw said:

Whoever wrote Hebrews was unfamiliar with Jesus' life and ministry on earth.

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All you've done is discount, deny, reject and ignore all the Scripture that condemns your views. Sad.

Grip Docility said:

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

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What did Jesus preach and what did He tell His disciples to preach?

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 20:1
And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 9:2
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Luke 9:6
And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

You get the idea. The gospel, repentance, and the kingdom were preached by Jesus and His disciples. Not once was the cross and His crucifixion preached, not even a hint of it. Looking at Luke 24 again, we see it was the same message after His death, with no mention of preaching the cross.

Luke 24
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.