Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Major1

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If God considers Jews to be separate from the Church, then He must have a criterion or set of criteria with which to distinguish and identify them.

What are those criteria?

Gentiles were released from Jewish custom


The divergence is clearly articulated in Acts 15 - at the "Council of Jerusalem," often pegged at 50 AD - roughly 20 years after the Crucifixion. Acts 15 sets up the situation as follows:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. ... Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

In a nutshell - it's the old circumcision debate: Do converts need to go under the knife?

Prior to this disagreement, Christians were simply Jews that believed Jesus was the promised Messiah. When the Messiah came, however, he expanded His mission in such a way as to afford salvation to the Gentiles. (See Matthew 28:19-20)

Peter speaks to this issue, recalling the fact that the Gentiles were being added to the mission - first in Acts 10, and now again in Acts 15:..............

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
At what point did Judaism and Christianity diverge?
 
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seventysevens

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Blessing to you brother, however I do not agree with you. I will not ARGUE with you or anyone else. Some do that and become "personal in their arguments" because of frustration on their part.

They make assumptions and opinions that come from
preconceived agendas and force the Bible to say what it they want it to say instead of understanding what it does say and become angry when that are shown something different from their agenda.

Now, What would Jesus do? He would have said IT and that would have ended it!

As for any REAL BELIEVER committing suicide if there was no Rapture. I can see that is a concern for you but I for one do not feel that way.

We are NOT SAVED and promised eternal life in heaven with God by the Rapture. We are SAVED by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and His death, and resurrection. The Rapture is simply the event by which God has determined to remove born again believers from the earth so that they will escape the WRATH of God.

Now I CAN SEE and understand the opposite. WHEN the Rapture does take place and the many, many people who professed to be saved but instead lived in sin and rebellion look around for their loved ones, I can certainly see how that realization would lead them to suicide as the fact of what just happened sinks in.

Matthew 7:23 is exactly what JESUS WOULD DO.......
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Very good point !
Like Judas when it dawned on him the kiss and betrayal of Jesus to the Sanhedrin for 30 silver coins
 
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jgr

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Gentiles were released from Jewish custom

The divergence is clearly articulated in Acts 15 - at the "Council of Jerusalem," often pegged at 50 AD - roughly 20 years after the Crucifixion. Acts 15 sets up the situation as follows:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. ... Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

In a nutshell - it's the old circumcision debate: Do converts need to go under the knife?

Prior to this disagreement, Christians were simply Jews that believed Jesus was the promised Messiah. When the Messiah came, however, he expanded His mission in such a way as to afford salvation to the Gentiles. (See Matthew 28:19-20)

Peter speaks to this issue, recalling the fact that the Gentiles were being added to the mission - first in Acts 10, and now again in Acts 15:..............

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
At what point did Judaism and Christianity diverge?
Agreed, but still doesn't tell me how God distinguishes. If someone today claims to be a Jew, what are the criteria that God uses to prove or disprove the claim?

If I understand correctly, you're saying (correctly) that circumcision is not a criterion.

But there must be other criteria. For the Church, they're faith and obedience in and to Christ.

What are they for Jews?
 
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BABerean2

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At what point did Judaism and Christianity diverge?

Based on the text below it would be at Calvary.


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(From the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


On the road to Emmaus the risen Savior reveals that the whole Old Testament is about Him.

.
 
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It's kinda hard to argue with anyone here because there is always some truth and scripture to back it up. The truth is I kind of want a rapture to happen. But I'm seeing here scripture going up against scripture, when that happens it could lead to a conflict, but God did not write his truth to go against itself, which means at least one person here is using a Scripture in a different context than it's meant. If we elect to pick and choose our verses, and only say part of what they mean, then that means we are already becoming a stumbling block to each other and everyone who sees this.
I've already said everything I was willing to argue about before, but ultimately it's to each his or her own beliefs.
The core problem I see, looking at all of this and even some of my posts last night sadly, is that you people are still arguing, and worse you're using scripture to argue. That's NOT what Jesus would want. Not at all.
A Christian is supposed to love, he or she is supposed to be a little Christ. But I'm not seeing that here.
Not from my old posts either.
SO I have only this to say here, I love all of you because Jesus Loves You. And Because what Jesus would do in this situation is leave the thread alone, because it's causing strife and separation, that's what I'm going to do.
Peace and Love to you all
Goodbye for now.
-Coleton
 
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seventysevens

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A lot of facts and biblical truths you guys intentionally -deliberately avoid and try to sweep under the rug is what defeats what you prefer to believe- it would require writing a book to describe them in detail-
Such things as God has declared the the piece of earth called ISRAEL will be reborn/reestablished as a country with the descendants of the original people of Israel -
Has happened in our generation

A city called Jerusalem will be the capital city of God where Jesus will have His throne built after Jesus has returned to earth - Has happened in our generation

The original Hebrew language would once again be spoken in that land .
Has happened in our generation

Many factors that you guys refuse to accept because they disprove what you prefer to believe
people can know their heritage by examining their family lineage - the maternal lineage - just like a person knows they are related to Abe Lincoln , they know through the maternal ancestry heritage that they are related Abe Lincoln - not everyone is related to him-

People who live in all areas of earth that know their Jewish heritage choose to uproot from their established lives in all parts on the earth to move to Israel because the HS led them to do so even though they know that neighboring nations intend to destroy the Land of Israel that God has declared HIS Holy Land -- God has not said any such thing of any other land on earth
 
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Postvieww

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None of these were called “saints” like those of Matt 27. Aren’t details nasty little things that bite us in the rear occasionally?
Like the little detail that what my post was addressing had nothing to with saints only people being raised from the dead. 77’s used “appointed for man once to die” I was only dealing with that point. Sorry to diminish your thunder.
 
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seventysevens

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Like the little detail that what my post was addressing had nothing to with saints only people being raised from the dead. 77’s used “appointed for man once to die” I was only dealing with that point. Sorry to diminish your thunder.
As I said already , those who were Resurrected were dead and buried in their graves for centuries - they came out of their graves and rose to life !
In Proper context is what you should apply - but you choose not to
 
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BABerean2

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People who live in all areas of earth that know their Jewish heritage choose to uproot from their established lives in all parts on the earth to move to Israel because the HS led them to do so even though they know that neighboring nations intend to destroy the Land of Israel that God has declared HIS Holy Land

Based on Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13, and John 3:1-16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, you are very confused if you think those that have rejected Christ have the Holy Spirit leading them.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.
 
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seventysevens

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You are truly spiritually blind if you really believe that - God has a plan that he will fulfill regardless of what you think
You have no understanding of why Israel became a nation again

You have no understanding of why Israel is where Jesus will come back to when He returns

You have no understanding of why Jerusalem is the reborn nation of Israel capital city

You have no understanding of why God said that Jerusalem will be the burdensome stone

You have no understanding of why God said a time of Jacobs(Israel) time of trouble is coming to Israel

You have no understanding of why Hebrew is now becoming the reborn nation of Israel primary language
You have no understanding
All you have is an agenda ,Nothing more than that





Based on Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13, and John 3:1-16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, you are very confused if you think those that have rejected Christ have the Holy Spirit leading them.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.
 
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BABerean2

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You are truly spiritually blind if you really believe that - God has a plan that he will fulfill regardless of what you think
You have no understanding of why Israel became a nation again

You have no understanding of why Israel is where Jesus will come back to when He returns

You have no understanding of why Jerusalem is the reborn nation of Israel capital city

You have no understanding of why God said that Jerusalem will be the burdensome stone

You have no understanding of why God said a time of Jacobs(Israel) time of trouble is coming to Israel

You have no understanding of why Hebrew is now becoming the reborn nation of Israel primary language
You have no understanding
All you have is an agenda ,Nothing more than that

The man in the following video understands why.
What he says is a historical fact.
The letter used by a group of politicians to create the modern State of Israel is shown during the presentation.



It is those who ignore the words of this man who are... "spiritually blind".

We are witnessing one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church, and many either cannot or will not look at the truth found in the video above.


.
 
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seventysevens

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The man in the following video understands why.

.
What he says is irrelevant to the fact of the matter
- God has a plan that he will fulfill regardless of what you think
You have no understanding of why Israel became a nation again

You have no understanding of why Israel is where Jesus will come back to when He returns

You have no understanding of why Jerusalem is the reborn nation of Israel capital city

You have no understanding of why God said that Jerusalem will be the burdensome stone

You have no understanding of why God said a time of Jacobs(Israel) time of trouble is coming to Israel

You have no understanding of why Hebrew is now becoming the reborn nation of Israel primary language
You have no understanding
All you have is an agenda ,Nothing more than that
 
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Copperhead

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Like the little detail that what my post was addressing had nothing to with saints only people being raised from the dead. 77’s used “appointed for man once to die” I was only dealing with that point. Sorry to diminish your thunder.

That's ok. Was just pointing out what seemed to be the obvious that these of Matt 27 were the only ones compared to that list you posted that were saints, either directly named as such or implied. Since they were considered saints, I think the "die once" thing kicks in. The others, technically, were not resurrected, they were restored to life.

Dr. J Vernon McGee, the thru the Bible teacher, addressed this same issue on one of his Q&A sessions. He took the same position, except for some minor differences, as I have stated. He thought these saints were taken to be with the Lord by Yeshua also. The only difference between him and I on this was that he feel these saints were recognized by others. I do not. Nothing in the text suggests they were known. Only that they appeared to others.
 
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Copperhead

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What seems surprising about the "who is a Jew" thing is this.... given the history the last 2000 years on how Jews have been treated, why would anyone who isn't a Jew want to claim that they are? So it takes some real guts to claim one is a Jew. I'm not, and sure wouldn't try to pass myself off as one.

And one thing is for certain... the Jewish people have to be a national entity for the Lord to even return. That is, unless Hosea and Yeshua were just pulling our lariat. How that comes about, it is outside my pay grade to worry about, and I'll let others fool with conspiracy theories. I just know that it is a certainty. That is, if the Word of God can be trusted.

Hosea 5:15 - 6:2 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;

In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'

It is just my own little supposition, but I see a 2000 year spread going on in the Hosea passage between Yeshua returning to His place (which implies He left it to begin with) and the calling by Israel for His return. Combine that passage in Hosea with....

Psalms 90:4 (NKJV) For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV) But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
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jgr

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What seems surprising about the "who is a Jew" thing is this.... given the history the last 2000 years on how Jews have been treated, why would anyone who isn't a Jew want to claim that they are? So it takes some real guts to claim one is a Jew. I'm not, and sure wouldn't try to pass myself off as one.

And one this is for certain... the Jewish people have to be a national entity for the Lord to even return. That is, unless Hosea and Yeshua were just pulling our lariat. How that comes about, it is outside my pay grade to worry about. I just know that it is a certainty.

Hosea 5:15 - 6:2 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;

In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'
The issue isn't what anyone claims. The issue is what are the objective determining criteria.

For the Church, those criteria are faith and obedience.

For Jews, no one has yet told us.
 
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Copperhead

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The issue isn't what anyone claims. The issue is what are the objective determining criteria.

For the Church, those criteria are faith and obedience.

For Jews, no one has yet told us.

Well, like I stated, either way, they have to be a national identity in place so that the requirement that they acknowledge their offense (singular) of rejection and call for Him to return can play out. Hosea and Yeshua made that a requirement. I really don't think it matters much who we think Israel is. The Lord will know. And the scripture says He will not return till Israel acknowledges Him and pleads for His return. So that leaves out other strange concepts some promote like the Church has replaced Israel.
 
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jgr

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Well, like I stated, either way, they have to be a national identity in place so that the requirement that they acknowledge their offense (singular) of rejection and call for Him to return can play out. Hosea and Yeshua made that a requirement. I really don't think it matters much who we think Israel is. The Lord will know. And the scripture says He will not return till Israel acknowledges Him and pleads for His return. So that leaves out other strange concepts some promote like the Church has replaced Israel.
Then when you say "...He will not return till Israel acknowledges Him...", you must admit that you don't know whom you're referring to, since you've just said that only "the Lord will know".

A doctrine based on someone that you cannot scripturally identify, cannot be a scriptural doctrine.
 
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straykat

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The most tragic thing about "raptures" and "tribulations" is worrying about some supermarket version of The Tribulation () and ignoring the day to day tribulations the church has always gone through.. and are going through right now. Whether it was Greece left to fend for themselves under Ottoman rule for hundreds of years or whether it's modern times and Daesh displacing people and executing them en masse. A movement STARTED by Wars that were supported by end times nutcases, who gave Neocons their blessings. YOU are the Tribulation. And sometimes I really wish there was a "rapture" just to get away from it all. But alas, that's probably not happening. /rant
 
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seventysevens

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Then when you say "...He will not return till Israel acknowledges Him...", you must admit that you don't know whom you're referring to, since you've just said that only "the Lord will know".

A doctrine based on someone that you cannot scripturally identify, cannot be a scriptural doctrine.
Over the course of time Many people here have tried to help you understand who Israel is but you reject every answer provided to you because of your biased preference
People have gone the extra mile for you to help you understand - but yet you reject and disregard because of your biased preference

You prefer to say that the Church is Israel - and that is the only answer you accept even though scripture as Hosea, Matthew and others have been shared with you , you still try to get people to say what you want them to say because of your preference , your agenda and ulterior motive is quite transparent and when people see through your transparency you try to imply they don't know when they do know -
Anyone can identify you without knowing your name as they can point you out in a crowd or a lineup - it that simple -you choose to replace Israel with the Church , but if it were that simple then Jesus would not be saying -"39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
He is telling them that they will not see HIM JESUS until they recognize HIM as LORD -

The Church recognizes Jesus as Lord and is wanting the Lord to come quickly - but Israel has not yet recognized Jesus as Lord!
Hosea means the same thing

So it is Evident that Jesus is speaking to Israel and telling them this very fact
In today's world now that Israel has become a national entity once again and a portion of Israel(Messianic Jews) has recognized Jesus as Lord - the penalty for the rest of Israel that rejects Jesus is soon to come which will trigger more of Israel to repent and accept Jesus as Lord
 
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BABerean2

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You prefer to say that the Church is Israel

Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.
(GW)


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
This is confirmed by Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16.


.
 
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