Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Copperhead

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[Staff edit].

The thing is, anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is living in a fantasy land. And the greatest obstacle to finding the actual truth, is those who think they already have it.

While I can appreciate what other feel the HS has guided them on regarding such issues, I prefer to always fall back on the written word itself for verification. Kind of a "trust but verify" thing.

As far as removals / raptures go, there are actually several. The first one was definitely pre-trib.... by about 2000 years. The righteous who were resurrected just after Yeshua's resurrection and were taken to the Father. Stacks of early Christian writers that had direct contact with the Apostles or disciples of them confirm that Matt 27:52-53 was not a later added in passage as some of the modern textual critics would have us believe, and it was the first removal of the saints to occur. Those early writers confirm that it was a total resurrection of the saints that were held in Abraham's bosom until the resurrection of the Messiah. They then were resurrected and taken to the Father. That was after Yeshua's resurrection and pre-trib if there ever was a pre-trib rapture.

Follows the pattern of the harvest as laid out in Leviticus 23. And Yeshua was fond of pointing us to the harvest many times in His discourses.

I do believe that Faith is important. But unlike your assertion, I don't think that Christianity is a works religion that one has to prove their worthiness by going thru horrific trials to prove how much faith they have. That is what makes up the man made religions. Maybe you just worded your comments wrong, but just a superficial reading of that comment suggests that. I might have read it wrong, and if so, I apologize.

Sure, there are rewards for faithful service, but the salvation is already paid for those who trust in Yeshua. So what does it benefit the Lord to dump on them by making them go thru the GT? That period of time is when the Lord brings forth His punishment upon the Messiah rejecting world. Those that already have placed their trust in Yeshua, why would the God who justified them thru the death of His Son then pour out His punishment on them?

Isaiah seems to concur....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

John 14:2-3 (ISV) There are many rooms in my Father’s house. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I am going away to prepare a place for you, I will come back again and welcome you into my presence, so that you may be where I am.

Notice.. we go back to with Him to live in His presence. He is not setting up shop on the earth yet. He is hiding us from the punishment of the Father that will be going on the earth, as per Isaiah.

King David, Jeremiah, and others seem to support this.

Psalms 27:5 (KJV) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion:
in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me;
he shall set me up upon a rock.
 
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Postvieww

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As far as removals / raptures go, there are actually several. The first one was definitely pre-trib.... by about 2000 years. The righteous who were resurrected just after Yeshua's resurrection and were taken to the Father. Stacks of early Christian writers that had direct contact with the Apostles or disciples of them confirm that Matt 27:52-53 was not a later added in passage as some of the modern textual critics would have us believe, and it was the first removal of the saints to occur. Those early writers confirm that it was a total resurrection of the saints that were held in Abraham's bosom until the resurrection of the Messiah. They then were resurrected and taken to the Father. That was after Yeshua's resurrection and pre-trib if there ever was a pre-trib rapture.

This is what the passage says:

Matthew27: 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is what it does not say:

1. All Old Testament Saints were raised.

2. This was a resurrection in a new glorified body.

3. That any of these went to heaven.

4. That they did not die again as did Lazarus and others raised from the dead in scripture.
 
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seventysevens

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[Staff edit].

Fact is that rapture WILL happen regardless if you don't believe it - IT IS Gods Plan it IS Gods Word

The KJV was written in Old English which is what was spoken back in those days , but if people speak it today most people will question what is being said because it has been a very long time ago that people spoke like that

in KJV scripture says "Noah knew his wife"
It means that Noah had sex with his wife and bear children
If you met a guy that said to you that he knew your father in college - would you think he meant he had sex with your dad in college ? or would think he meant that he was acquainted with your dad in college ?
Context matters to properly understand what is meant
I showed you bible text where the word rapture is found and how it is applied , if you choose not to believe it that is all on you

People going through the Great Trib are far more likely to give up or give in to accept the mark of the beast because of starvation - they have to buy food and cant unless they have the mark

Jesus knows this far too well and does not want His Children to be put in a position where desperation on the part of a people going through severe hardship would cause them to be permanently separated from God because they accepted the mark
Jesus removes His children from that situation because they had faith IN HIM

people who do not have faith will remain through the GT , but God being merciful to those that repent during the GT will be either martyred or survive and live in Petra but these will mostly be Jews
 
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Copperhead

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This is what the passage says:

Matthew27: 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is what it does not say:

1. All Old Testament Saints were raised.

2. This was a resurrection in a new glorified body.

3. That any of these went to heaven.

4. That they did not die again as did Lazarus and others raised from the dead in scripture.

You are right! It doesn't say those things..... but

Anything prior to the death of Yeshua was OT. When did these saints die then? between Yeshua's death and His resurrection? The OT period didn't end at Malachi, the last book. Even Yeshua said that.

Ignatius a contemporary of the Apostle John and knew him personally confirmed those things, in the writings of his to both the Trallians and Magnesians.

Irenaeus, who knew Polycarp who was a disciple of John, confirmed these same accounts.

Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and others.

So, who do I take the word of..... a poster on a forum in the 21st century, or some who knew the disciples themselves, who knew what really occurred? No brainer. Oh..... the information I got regarding these early writers.... from a thesis article written by Dr. Norman Geisler, a very well known and respected theologian and Bible expositor.

The Early Fathers and the Resurrection of the Saints

And it conforms wonderfully to the first fruits requirements of Leviticus 23. Yeshua pointed us to the harvest many times in His discourses. This, I believe, is why Yeshua told Mary not to cling to Him shortly after His resurrection since He had not yet ascended to the Father. He, as our High Priest, needed to remain ceremonially pure to deliver the first fruits sheave offering (those resurrected saints) to the Father, per Lev 23. Yeshua is the first fruits of those who are resurrected, but He is not the first fruits of the harvest. He is not a sheaf or bundle. So don't anyone get goofy and try to confuse the two in their zeal to discredit this.
 
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seventysevens

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52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
They arose because Jesus resurrected those people
Scripture is Clear
It is destined for people to die ONCE -Then comes judgment
There is no do over
Those people were dead for many years and Jesus resurrected them to life
There is NO scripture to say they are not eternally with God - they did NOT die a second mortal human death -IF they did it would make scripture contradict itself
 
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BABerean2

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Jesus removes His children from that situation because they had faith IN HIM

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It only takes one verse to show that your statement above is in error.

It only takes Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 12:22-24 to show that the New Covenant of Christ was fulfilled during the first century, and that it applies to the "church".

.
 
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seventysevens

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The ONLY error here is your flawed understanding of what scripture means





Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.
 
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Copperhead

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Something I also failed to mention... Job... the oldest book in the Bible also alludes to a pre-trib removal of the righteous. Can't be dogmatic about that, but it is curious nonetheless.

Job 14:13-17 (NKJV) “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my hard service I will wait,
Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You;
You shall desire the work of Your hands
.
16 For now You number my steps,
But do not watch over my sin.
17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
And You cover my iniquity.

Either way, it is interesting that Job had a better grasp on the Gospel and Salvation than many who have the NT do.
 
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Copperhead

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It only takes one verse to show that your statement above is in error.

It only takes Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 12:22-24 to show that the New Covenant of Christ was fulfilled during the first century, and that it applies to the "church".

.

Not quite. I go back to Yeshua always pointing us to the harvest. And the Torah requirements regarding the harvest are in Leviticus 23, right along with the feast days that correspond to Yeshua's first and second coming.

Out of the gate, there is the offering of the First Fruits of the harvest by the High Priest. I believe that was done shortly after Yeshua's resurrection and included the resurrection saints of Matthew 27.

Next is the main harvest, which I believe is the main removal either before or at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel / 7 yr time of Jacob's Trouble. Call it the "rapture" that most think it is if you will.

But, here is the kicker regarding the harvest. the commandment requires that the field corners are not to be harvested yet and are saved for the gleanings harvest. It is not done all at once but incrementally. This comports wonderfully to the concept that those who come to faith and die during the 70th week are those gleanings of the harvest. You know... like the two witnesses in Revelation who are killed, resurrected, and raptured out of here during that time. That is just one example.
 
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Postvieww

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Copperhead said:


You are right! It doesn't say those things..... but


Ignatius a contemporary of the Apostle John and knew him personally confirmed those things, in the writings of his to both the Trallians and Magnesians.


Irenaeus, who knew Polycarp who was a disciple of John, confirmed these same accounts.


Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and others.


So, who do I take the word of..... a poster on a forum in the 21st century, or some who know the disciples themselves, who knew what really occurred. No brainer.




I read through many of the Church Fathers comments you reference what I found was confirmation of the Historicity of the event in Matthew 27. What I did not find is unequivocal backing for the claims of the type of resurrection and a return trip to heaven. Maybe you have some links or quotes?


No you should not believe a 21st century poster on a forum and you should weigh the opinions of Church Fathers against the scriptures, with the scripture being the final authority.


I did find this interesting quote:


“ Jerome wrote: “As Lazarus rose from the dead, so also did many bodies of the Saints rise again to shew forth the Lord’s resurrection;yet notwithstanding that the graves were opened, they did not rise again before the Lord rose, that He might be the first-born of the resurrection from the dead” (cited by Aquinas, ibid., 963). “
 
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seventysevens

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Not quite. I go back to Yeshua always pointing us to the harvest. And the Torah requirements regarding the harvest are in Leviticus 23, right along with the feast days that correspond to Yeshua's first and second coming.

Out of the gate, there is the offering of the First Fruits of the harvest by the High Priest. I believe that was done shortly after Yeshua's resurrection and included the resurrection saints of Matthew 27.

Next is the main harvest, which I believe is the main removal either before or at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel / 7 yr time of Jacob's Trouble. Call it the "rapture" that most think it is if you will.

But, here is the kicker regarding the harvest. the commandment requires that the field corners are not to be harvested yet and are saved for the gleanings harvest. It is not done all at once but incrementally. This comports wonderfully to the concept that those who come to faith and die during the 70th week are those gleanings of the harvest. You know... like the two witnesses in Revelation who are killed, resurrected, and raptured out of here during that time. That is just one example.
Amen , few posters here even look into this depth of study
 
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Copperhead

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Postvieww, go back and look at what I stated. I stated, as did Jerome, that Yeshua is the first born of the resurrection. No conflict. But Yeshua is our High Priest. He is not the first fruits sheave offering of the harvest prescribed in Leviticus 23. He is not a bundle or sheave. Those resurrected saints were. And they rose AFTER Yeshua's resurrection per the Matthew account, so there is not conflict.

I told you guys, in your haste to discredit things, not to confuse the first fruits of the harvest with Yeshua being the first resurrected. But you did anyway. A person can put a sign up on a highway that a bridge is out and still there will be someone who drives off it because they weren't paying attention.

Jerome gave us the Latin Bible. Wonderful accomplishment. But He was around 400AD. Ignatius was a contemporary of the Apostle John and knew him. Which do you think should hold greater weight in these matters? Iranaeus did indeed say that these souls were removed...

Irenaeus wrote: “…He [Christ] suffered who can lead those souls aloft that followed His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact that when the holy hour of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies”(Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus XXVIII, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, Alexander Roberts, ibid., 572-573).

Yeshua told Mary not to hold Him, as He had not yet ascended to the Father. He would be required, as our High Priest, to ascend to the Father with the first fruits Sheave offering of the harvest (the resurrected saints) and present them to the Father. Per Lev 23. Everything fits.
 
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Postvieww

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It is destined for people to die ONCE -Then comes judgment

IF they did it would make scripture contradict itself

How many of these did not die again?

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).



2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).



3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21).



4.. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).



5. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).



6. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).



7. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).



8. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).
 
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BABerean2

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either before or at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel / 7 yr time of Jacob's Trouble.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel, during the first century.

Since "the time of Jacob's trouble" occurred during the captivity in Babylon over 2,000 years ago, you would need a time machine to see it.


.
 
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seventysevens

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None of those were resurrected from the dead buried in the graves for decades or centuries as were those that Jesus resurrected those that rose from the buried graves

You just getting desperate :)
Consider what we call a coma in today's world
, people who look dead , unconscious , they are not really dead - but people back in bible days would say they are dead and if Elijah or some anointed person touched them and healed them and they awoke being healed, that is not a resurrection of the dead





How many of these did not die again?

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).



2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).



3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21).



4.. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).



5. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).



6. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).



7. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).



8. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).
 
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Copperhead

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True, to the Jew first then the Gentile. No conflict. But it is allegorical interpretation to categorically state that the 70th week of Daniel applies. Let's say you are right, BAB. Who was it that confirmed the covenant and then bring an end to the sacrifice? The temple was not destroyed till 70 AD, after Paul's death.

the time of Jacob's trouble was during the captivity in Babylon? Wow.

Matthew 24:21-22 (NKJV) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Isaiah 45:4-5 (NKJV Strong's,) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
 
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Copperhead

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How many of these did not die again?

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).



2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).



3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21).



4.. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).



5. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).



6. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).



7. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).



8. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).

None of these were called “saints” like those of Matt 27. Aren’t details nasty little things that bite us in the rear occasionally?
 
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Major1

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Woah, this got out of hand real fast. I believe that there is no Rapture, I say I BELIEVE because I don't want to start an argument, but the reason I believe that we will still be here during the great tribulations is a three-parter. Hear me out or ignore me, you have free will, you can believe what you want.
I respect that.
One
First things first, we all know without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
Three things I know God wants is our obedience, our trust, and our faith in him.
Now we also know that trouble worketh patience, and patience Hope, and so on. Romans 5:3-5
So if trouble, more specifically going through troubles and not giving in, worketh faith. Then doesn't that mean that if The Great Tribulation is the worst ever to be experienced ( Matthew 24:21) then wouldn't an event like that, that lasts for so long, build the most Faith in a Christian if they made it through alive?
So without faith, we cannot please God, and if troubles worketh patience, like Paul wrote, then wouldn't the great tribulation build the most faith in a Christian?
If that is true, then why would God not let us Christians experience it?
Two
The bible doesn't say the word Rapture.
The verse that says Jesus will come for his people, is absolutely true. God doesn't lie, he doesn't have to. But if you pray and ask God to give you the Holy Spirit while reading the book in the bible. You'll notice he wants you to read the whole book, not just that verse, you'll feel it in your heart to read that verse in the context of the surrounding paragraph, and not just pick and choose one verse from it.
When you do this you'll want to read into it some more. So do this for yourself and try. I'm not going to tell you how I respect your intelligence as a human and as a Christian.
You'll eventually come up with your own conclusion. SO don't do anything after it forms, instead ask and pray to God out loud, or in your heart these exact words, "Dear Heavenly Father, Is what I believe the truth from your word, or am I wrong, In Jesus Name, I pray, Amen." Now quickly after that prayer open your bible to a random page, and see what draws you the most, That will be your answer.
Also, when Jesus was talking about how "One will be taken and the other left." He wasn't talking about a rapture at all, he was saying One was a Christian and one was a Sinner. Obviously, the sinner is not going to be taken. Only the righteous may enter heaven.
Three
The reason why I am saying all this.
Can you really risk it? If there is a rapture, no worries, and I could very well be wrong.
But can you really risk People believing you, and IF, I SAID IF, there is no rapture, Could you personally be responsible for all of the souls that killed themselves because a rapture never came, and life was too much to bear? Becuase if there is no rapture, then God will count you as a stumbling block to all of the Christians you told that too.
The reason I'm saying all this is because I as a Christian cannot take that risk. I don't want anyone to commit suicide. I love Jesus, therefore I love and care for everyone he loves. If a rapture never happens, there will be some who do commit suicide. So I'll ask again can you really take that risk?
If you don't seriously think about this and follow step Two. Then don't reply to this, if you do reply, with some halfhearted answer, or without a Holy Spirit guided Scripture, then I leave you in God's hands. However, if you truly want the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, you may also reply in kindness.
Remember, What would Jesus Do? Would he argue with someone because he didn't believe him or her? Would he continue an argument at all? Think about that before posting.
Love and Peace be with you all,
-Coleton

Blessing to you brother, however I do not agree with you. I will not ARGUE with you or anyone else. Some do that and become "personal in their arguments" because of frustration on their part.

They make assumptions and opinions that come from
preconceived agendas and force the Bible to say what it they want it to say instead of understanding what it does say and become angry when that are shown something different from their agenda.

Now, What would Jesus do? He would have said IT and that would have ended it!

As for any REAL BELIEVER committing suicide if there was no Rapture. I can see that is a concern for you but I for one do not feel that way.

We are NOT SAVED and promised eternal life in heaven with God by the Rapture. We are SAVED by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and His death, and resurrection. The Rapture is simply the event by which God has determined to remove born again believers from the earth so that they will escape the WRATH of God.

Now I CAN SEE and understand the opposite. WHEN the Rapture does take place and the many, many people who professed to be saved but instead lived in sin and rebellion look around for their loved ones, I can certainly see how that realization would lead them to suicide as the fact of what just happened sinks in.

Matthew 7:23 is exactly what JESUS WOULD DO.......
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
 
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Major1

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I am trying to get you to explain how 12 of the 24 could be the apostles . I am very much aware that John was still alive on the earth and this was just being shown to him. If you will ever get around to address my point on what Stephen saw as he was being killed we might get somewhere with this discussion.




Great we agree it was a vision. How can it be a vision of the church around the throne and Jesus not there????

Blessing to you once again my brother. I must have missed your question among all the ones you have asked me because I do not remember one about Stephen.

I do not know what you are referring to about what he saw.

Acts 7:55-56 & 60..........
"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Verse 60).... And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

First of all, Stephen did not say that he saw he APOSTLES in heaven. He did not say that He saw the CHURH in heaven. What he DID SAY was that he SAW JESUS STANDING.

Scriptures say that Jesus went and "SAT at the right hand of God". So then the real question should then be..."WHY IS JESU STANDING"????

I do not know and you do not know. I personally believe that Jesus is STANDING so as to receive Stephan to Himself as He has already said that....
"I go to prepare a place for you.......and i will receive you unto my self that where I am you will be also".

Now again, I really do not know what your thinking is here about Stephen and the 12 Apostles.
However, Stephen from Acts 7 was one of the first deacons but he was NOT AN APOSTLE. That being the Bible fact it negates your thinking.

I hope this helps your understanding and I do appreciate your question as one again YOU have allowed he to get out the Word of God to a world that Needs Jesus Christ as its Lord and Saviour!!

Look at and consider comment #1883 again!!!! That says it all!
 
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