Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Major1 said:

Now as for your comment that you can name all kinds of people who do not agree with me that the 1st SEAL opens the Great Tribulation. I do not mean any disrespect neither am I trying to project any arrogance but please understand that I DO NOT CARE!!!!

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I understand, you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. I was just challenging your statement “Current established pre-tribulation believers and scholars maintain that the Day of the Lord, and thus the Tribulation, begins with the breaking of the first seal” which you entered into evidence.

Postvieww said:

I have made my case that the timing of Revelation 4 is before Jesus’s arrival in heaven from His ascension. That IMHO this alone refutes this theory of yours. For your theory to work John would have to have seen himself as one of the 24, we have to allusion to that. John knew personally all of the apostles no indication in the text he recognized anyone. One of the Elders specifically spoke to John Rev 5:5 no indication he recognized him or had a clue as to who they were. They are never identified as saints or angels so all we can do is build a case based on the information we do have. That is what I have tried to do.

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Actually you have NOT made a case at all brother. YOU have stated what YOU believe and what you have actually done is to completely destroy YOUR THEORY!!!!!.

John was NOT IN HEAVEN brother at that time so he could NOT have been a member of the 24 or the church. HE WAS NOT DEAD my dear friend, and that alone blows YOUR THEORY out the door!!!!!

Shall we read what the Bible says instead of making a case or stating a theory????

Revelation 1:9-11.............
"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The Holy Spirit moved John and gave him a panoramic picture of things to come.
What he was allowed to see and hear was an appeal to the eye gate and ear gate.
He was projected foreword by God in his mind and vision NOT HIS BODY!
His body did not leave Patmos my dear brother.

That means he could not have in any way been one of the 24!

Major1 said:

They must accept Christ as Saviour and then they must keep the commandments of God as the salvation of God reverts back to Old Test. economy.

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If the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, and there is a change in the law in Hebrews 7:12, and there is no more sacrifice for sin in Hebrews 10:16-18, and salvation has always been based on faith, instead of works in Hebrews chapter 11 (King David was an adulterer.), and Christ is now the mediator instead of Moses in Hebrews 8:6, there is absolutely no way God is going back to the Old Covenant system of salvation during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul gave a very stern warning against what you are claiming in Galatians 1:6-9.

The idea is one of the greatest errors of John Darby's doctrine.

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

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Major1 said:

John was NOT IN HEAVEN brother at that time so he could NOT have been a member of the 24 or the church. HE WAS NOT DEAD my dear friend, and that alone blows YOUR THEORY out the door!!!!!

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I said:

Postvieww said:

The person of John was taken to heaven “in the spirit” before the throne, where “one sat on the throne”

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Major1 said:

Shall we read what the Bible says instead of making a case or stating a theory????

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If you would actually read my posts we could have a better conversation.

John was not there physically but he saw what he saw in the spirit or in a vision or how ever you choose to describe it. That does not detract from the point I made. If he was seeing the 12 apostles in his (vision) he would have seen himself, that is if in fact they were the 12 apostles.

Major1 said:

SIX:
The number 24 again. The Church is composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel. 12 apostles of the Church. This offers a total of 24.

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Major1 said:

That means he could not have in any way been one of the 24!

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Please explain!

Cynthia1234 said:

I am a dispensationalist, but that doesn’t mean I am going to agree with other dispensationalists, that can have different views on what the dispensations are and who are involved and where and when, etc. It is true that today we are all one in Christ Jesus(Galatians 3:28). But the new covenant comes into effect in the millennial kingdom for the house of Israel and of Judah.

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You still refuse to deal with the fact that the same Greek word "diatheke" which you admit is "covenant" in Hebrews 12:24 is the same Greek word "diatheke" found in Matthew 26:28.
When Matthew wrote Matthew 26:28 he used the Greek word "diatheke", which is the same word the author of Hebrews used in Hebrews 12:24.
How can you or anyone else claim they used a different word?

Your error is confirmed by the fact that Hebrews 8:6 is written in the present tense, during the first century.

Below, a man who once believed and taught what you now believe speaks about the modern doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War.

Jerry Johnson had to abandon Dispensational Theology because he could not get it to agree with his Bible.
Below he speaks frankly to those who continue to admit that there are problems with the system, but still cannot let go of it.


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precepts said:

I would like someone to please show me where a rapture is mentioned in Revelation since the only thing I see mentioned in Revelation are resurrections.

Where does it say there's a rapture if the 2nd advent, as described in the Olivet discourse, is the 2nd resurrection, where that generation, and those standing there at the time of the Olivet discourse, taste death after witnessing Christ coming into his kingdom, which is the New Yah-ru-Shalem?

If the Olivet discourse advent which is the gathering of the elect and the so-called 2nd return of Christ is the 2nd resurrection, when Christ supposedly returns to earth, how does anyone justify a rapture at the "1st resurrection" if there's no advent, no return of Christ to earth until the 2nd resurrection?

Food for thought

A falling away has definitely begun.

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That is your problem, you are confused about the second coming as the 2nd resurrection. It is the First Resurrection ( our resurrection). Rev. 20:5 is not a reference to Jesus resurrection, it is speaking about the Church coming to life, reigning with Christ for 1000 years ( vs. 4). Then the rest of the dead after the 7th trumpet rapture ( which means caught up) and IS the same event when the resurrection takes place. Caught up in the twinkling of an eye and changed. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:51-54).
Before I disclose other references to this event, you must realize that the book of Revelation cannot be understood in a chapter by chapter chronological order of events.
It is like a transparent multi-dimensional sphere of events. We are shown different vantage points, where events overlap and accumulate. Also the scroll with seals is the written play, but the trumpets and bowls fall within the play.
So with that, look at Rev. 7:9, the multitude that cannot be numbered who just arrived in heaven is a reference of the Church just caught up/ resurrected. As you read the following verses you read worship and praises by all for salvation that just came. This is an event with the scroll with seven seals.
Now the same event this time shown as the 7th Trumpet ( last), occurs in Rev. 11:15. This is a different vantage point showing: the kingdom's of the world becoming Christ's; vs. 16 shows them worshipping ( falling on their faces as in Rev. 7:11); giving praises and thanks as God's Temple opens in heaven.
Took me over 20 years to sort that out.tomb
Other observations that support thus would be the 144k in both chapter 7 and 14 - different vantage points; the great earthquake in Rev. 6:12 and 16:18 is most likely the same one; the four horsemen in chapter who inflict war, famine and death to the world are the same as the four angels released from Euphrates in Rev. 9:14

Postvieww said:

You seem base your interpretation of the passage on the crown and white horse, I base mine on Zechariah 6: 1-8 .

1. The 4 horses are “the four spirits of the heavens which go forth from standing before the Lord of the earth”.

2. I don’t believe the Lamb opened the 1st seal to release Himself. Just my opinion, based on Zechariah of course.

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YES I do because that is what the Bible says and NOT what I want it to say.

Will there be LITERALLY FOUR Horsemen riding around the earth in the air for all to see???? NO!!!!

The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in Revelation chapter 6, verses 1-8. The four horsemen are symbolic descriptions of different events which will take place in the end times.

If you do not choose the believe what the Bible says then that is fine with.
I do not choose to do that and when Revelation 6:1-2 says.............
"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals... I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest."..........

I JUST BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS.!!!!!

Revelation 5:6 ............
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a LAMB as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Revelation 6:1 ..............
"And I saw when the LAMB opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see."

Now just to make this interesting......do a study on that word Lamb in Bible translations and you will see that it is capitalized "L". That means a proper name and that Name is Jesus Christ.

NIV............
"Then I saw a Lamb, ............. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes".


New Living Translation..........
"Then I saw a Lamb....".

English Standard Version
"And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb ..........".

KJV............
"And I saw a Lamb........".

Berean Study Bible
"Then I saw a Lamb..........".

Contemporary English Version
"Then I looked and saw a Lamb...........".

Good News Translation
"Then I saw a Lamb .............".


Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Then I saw One like a slaughtered lamb.........".

NET Bible
"Then I saw standing in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb.............."

Postvieww said:

Please explain!

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John was not dead. He was given a view of things to come and was able to see the throne room of God but he was still physically on Patmos.

Postvieww said:

I said:





If you would actually read my posts we could have a better conversation.

John was not there physically but he saw what he saw in the spirit or in a vision or how ever you choose to describe it. That does not detract from the point I made. If he was seeing the 12 apostles in his (vision) he would have seen himself, that is if in fact they were the 12 apostles.

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NO my brother he could not have!

Do you not see that the 24 represenitives WERE IN HEAVEN. John saw them and because he was alive he could not be part of what was spiritual heaven!

John could not be part of the Church in heaven and at the same time be part of the physical church still on the earth in 95 AD when he wrote the Revelation.

He could not have done that anymore than he could have been an angle because he was receiving a vision.

Cynthia1234 said:

God has had a chosen people since Abraham(Jews). It is the apple of his eye. He has special things prepared for them. They are a special group.

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If God considers Jews to be separate from the Church, then He must have a criterion or set of criteria with which to distinguish and identify them.

What are those criteria?

Major1 said:

NO my brother he could not have!

Do you not see that the 24 represenitives WERE IN HEAVEN. John saw them and because he was alive he could not be part of what was spiritual heaven!

John could not be part of the Church in heaven and at the same time be part of the physical church still on the earth in 95 AD when he wrote the Revelation.

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I am trying to get you to explain how 12 of the 24 could be the apostles . I am very much aware that John was still alive on the earth and this was just being shown to him. If you will ever get around to address my point on what Stephen saw as he was being killed we might get somewhere with this discussion.

Major1 said:

He could not have done that anymore than he could have been an angle because he was receiving a vision.

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Great we agree it was a vision. How can it be a vision of the church around the throne and Jesus not there????

Major1 said:

John was not dead. He was given a view of things to come and was able to see the throne room of God but he was still physically on Patmos.

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He was in the spirit.
Notice in

Eze 8:3
Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven,
and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy. [Revelation 17:3]

Revelation 17:3
and he carried me away to a wilderness in the Spirit, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns, [Ezekiel 8:3]

Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

jgr said:

If God considers Jews to be separate from the Church, then He must have a criterion or set of criteria with which to distinguish and identify them.

What are those criteria?

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Ex:If they are from the house of Israel or Judah, then they’re part of the group. They are those who are from the seed of Abraham. Those who followed Moses’ law. It’s not too hard to figure out who is a Jew... But right now in the church age we are spiritually all one in Christ Jesus. But when Jacob’s trouble comes, the Kingdom and very probably along with the new covenant will be preached to Israel mainly. To let them know that they are the ones who killed their messiah. We can’t know exactly what’s going to happen during Jacob’s trouble and what exactly with details... But the Bible clearly makes a difference between Jews and gentiles, otherwise there wouldn’t be mentions of it anyhow.

Woah, this got out of hand real fast. I believe that there is no Rapture, I say I BELIEVE because I don't want to start an argument, but the reason I believe that we will still be here during the great tribulations is a three-parter. Hear me out or ignore me, you have free will, you can believe what you want.
I respect that.
One
First things first, we all know without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
Three things I know God wants is our obedience, our trust, and our faith in him.
Now we also know that trouble worketh patience, and patience Hope, and so on. Romans 5:3-5
So if trouble, more specifically going through troubles and not giving in, worketh faith. Then doesn't that mean that if The Great Tribulation is the worst ever to be experienced ( Matthew 24:21) then wouldn't an event like that, that lasts for so long, build the most Faith in a Christian if they made it through alive?
So without faith, we cannot please God, and if troubles worketh patience, like Paul wrote, then wouldn't the great tribulation build the most faith in a Christian?
If that is true, then why would God not let us Christians experience it?
Two
The bible doesn't say the word Rapture.
The verse that says Jesus will come for his people, is absolutely true. God doesn't lie, he doesn't have to. But if you pray and ask God to give you the Holy Spirit while reading the book in the bible. You'll notice he wants you to read the whole book, not just that verse, you'll feel it in your heart to read that verse in the context of the surrounding paragraph, and not just pick and choose one verse from it.
When you do this you'll want to read into it some more. So do this for yourself and try. I'm not going to tell you how I respect your intelligence as a human and as a Christian.
You'll eventually come up with your own conclusion. SO don't do anything after it forms, instead ask and pray to God out loud, or in your heart these exact words, "Dear Heavenly Father, Is what I believe the truth from your word, or am I wrong, In Jesus Name, I pray, Amen." Now quickly after that prayer open your bible to a random page, and see what draws you the most, That will be your answer.
Also, when Jesus was talking about how "One will be taken and the other left." He wasn't talking about a rapture at all, he was saying One was a Christian and one was a Sinner. Obviously, the sinner is not going to be taken. Only the righteous may enter heaven.
Three
The reason why I am saying all this.
Can you really risk it? If there is a rapture, no worries, and I could very well be wrong.
But can you really risk People believing you, and IF, I SAID IF, there is no rapture, Could you personally be responsible for all of the souls that killed themselves because a rapture never came, and life was too much to bear? Becuase if there is no rapture, then God will count you as a stumbling block to all of the Christians you told that too.
The reason I'm saying all this is because I as a Christian cannot take that risk. I don't want anyone to commit suicide. I love Jesus, therefore I love and care for everyone he loves. If a rapture never happens, there will be some who do commit suicide. So I'll ask again can you really take that risk?
If you don't seriously think about this and follow step Two. Then don't reply to this, if you do reply, with some halfhearted answer, or without a Holy Spirit guided Scripture, then I leave you in God's hands. However, if you truly want the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, you may also reply in kindness.
Remember, What would Jesus Do? Would he argue with someone because he didn't believe him or her? Would he continue an argument at all? Think about that before posting.
Love and Peace be with you all,
-Coleton

Coleton Bryce Ritmanich said:

I believe that there is no Rapture, I say I BELIEVE because I don't want to start an argument, The bible doesn't say the word Rapture.

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It seems that you are not familiar with this topic so I wont go into much detail of when and all that - just show that YES INDEED there is a rapture - The word rapture is translated from the original Greek word harpazo , then it was translated into Latin into the Latin Vulgate as raptus-as raperium , rapiemur which later around the 16th or 17th century was translated into English as rapture - here is the definition -

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch, .
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively

In the English bible it is translated into 'caught away or caught up '
to seize onto - to snatch away suddenly with violent force - like someone snatching something out of your hand unexpectedly

1 Thess 4:17 ” Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
In verse 18 we are to take comfort with the words he is teaching

Book of Acts 8:34-40
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing

The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch , read all verses 34-40 and notice that the words “caught away” in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.
in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away- snatched away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time. Phillip did not take any means of human transportation , God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .

What happened to Philip will happen to born-again believers that devote themselves to the Lord

As you say - you have freewill to believe what ever you want to

You're forgetting one thing though, the original bible was in Hebrew texts, and translated to greek, like a lot. Over the years, that translation was subjected to probably millions of different interpretations most of which did not use the exact wording of the Hebrew language when translating. This is because the customs of the greek sometimes allowed for a synonym to be used in place of a word in the original Hebrew that in their language may have meant the same. Over the years the Holy Bible has been through many such occasions where this is highly likely to have happened.
So yeah, since really no one but the people who translated the original texts from the original language to Greek, and God himself can tell if that actually happened in this case, let us count ourselves both the wiser. Agree to disagree and move on? You can't successfully say that the Greek writing itself didn't use a synonym or a likened word to the original Hebrew text, instead of an exact writing, to just convey the same Idea that the original text had. Unless of course, you did it yourself, or you are God.
I leave you in God's hands.

Also, that verse is what I mentioned, it's talking about the Second Coming. Not a Rapture.

Coleton Bryce Ritmanich said:

You're forgetting one thing though, the original bible was in Hebrew texts, and translated to greek, like a lot. .

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The New Testament was written in Greek the Old Testament was in Hebrew , and Paul wrote wrote the scripture in Greek
but there is reference to the rapture in the OT Hebrew but it was was spoke of directly

God is who we call Father -
If you are a father of your own children would you intentionally put them through a severe event that would likely result in their death ?
If you are a good father you would do everything you could think of to keep them out from that terrible event
God the Father IS the good father