Tribulation and more...

The grief Tribulation is when God's patient is finished and God will give the world to the antichrist
2 Thes 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,, 10 and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing......

.......because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them.

They refuse the truth of Jesus Salvation !!!

TribulationSigns said:

Except for one important and authoritative truth, which is that neither Christ nor the prophets of old ever spoke of two fulfillments of the words as to occur once at Calvary and then another time over 30 years later. Once again, we have the authoritative and infallible words of the Scriptures illustrating its fulfillment, and the unauthoritative words and assumptions of Josephus, and his followers. This also ties into this modern day error of looking for the same literal/physical Temple and city to be restored again, rebuilt as if Christ's words of it never being His kingdom again should become null and void. The same error of attempting to read physical destruction as trying to read physical rebuilding into a prophecy that speaks of only a Spiritual destruction and rebuilding. ..with Christ the chief cornerstone of that rebuilding. In other words, if (and that's a big if) you are going to claim the prophecy was of a very literal/physical destruction, then to be Biblically consistent you must also claim the prophecy of the rebuilding of the ruins must also be taken as literal/physical, else you have confusion. And God is not the author of confusion, man is. But then, was the rebuilding not in Christ over 2000 years ago? It's inconsistent because it's not true.

"Inconsistency is the hallmark of error." -WiseManSay

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In Scripture we see the clear transcendence and replacement of the old covenant physical temple of national Israel, by the New Covenant spiritual temple of spiritual Israel, the Church. In Matthew 24:2, Christ predicted the final stage in that process, the destruction of the physical temple. The first stage began some years earlier on the Day of Pentecost when 3,000 living stones were emplaced upon the foundation of Christ the Cornerstone, and the apostles and prophets, in the beginning of construction of the Church (1 Peter 2:5). That construction will continue until Christ returns again.

God will never permit that process to be reversed or compromised. Any attempt to “build again the things which I destroyed” (Galatians 2:18) will be catastrophic.

The physical has forever been transcended by the spiritual.

Christian_Follower said:

Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation (Greek: θλίψις μεγάλη, thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come? If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.

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Matthew 24.21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

John 16.33: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

In these verses there are two distinct uses of the word.

The Matthew 24.21 reference speaks of a unique event.

The John 16.33 refers to the tribulation principle which can be expected while the believer is on earth prior to the Lord's coming, but which through the peace of the Lord can be endured by faith.

jgr said:

In Matthew 24:2, Christ predicted the final stage in that process, the destruction of the physical temple. The first stage began some years earlier on the Day of Pentecost when 3,000 living stones were emplaced upon the foundation of Christ the Cornerstone, and the apostles and prophets, in the beginning of construction of the Church (1 Peter 2:5). That construction will continue until Christ returns again.

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Sorry, Christ did NOT predict a physical destruction of the temple and the city in 70AD. You can't have New Testament congregation already built at Pentecost with the power of the Kingdom to go forth into the world with Gospel BEFORE the physical destruction of the temple in 70AD. That is confusion. That is NOT what Scripture teaches.

What you missed the point is that the Old Testament congregation of Israel ALREADY fell into desolate the moment Christ went to the Cross. He was talking about the stone of the temple and the city at that time, the Jews, Matthew 24:1-2. No need for physical destruction of the temple to fulfill any prophecy! Besides, the physical temple was no longer holy after Christ went to the Cross so it can't fulfill Christ's prophecy that the abomination of desolation, spoke of Daniel the Prophet, standing in the HOLY place. You got a wrong holy place to begin with.

The only holy place at this side of the Cross is the Church where Christ has built since Pentecost, especially where Holy Spirit dwells! Not physical temple nor Jerusalem in 70AD.

Therefore, the abomination of desolation that Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24 talked about will take place in the CHURCH prior to Second Coming! Not 70AD temple.

TribulationSigns said:

Besides, the physical temple was no longer holy after Christ went to the Cross so it can't fulfill Christ's prophecy that the abomination of desolation, spoke of Daniel the Prophet, standing in the HOLY place. You got a wrong holy place to begin with.

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It would ultimately be transcended by the spiritual temple of each believer. But if we check references to the physical temple in Acts, we see it in active use by the apostles and believers in the service of the gospel, with similarities to physical churches today where true believers worship, and the gospel is proclaimed.

What Scripture would suggest that the temple had become unholy or less holy?

/nvm

/nvm

TribulationSigns said:

Likewise, in verse 27, prior to Second Coming, when the new testament congregation is judged, it is the representation of Jerusalem. It is the beloved city that Revelation 20 says Satan attacks when he is loosed. It's not a plot of dirt in the middle east, it's the New Testament congregation. And speaking of this time when they are to flee and not come down from the housetops, etc, God continues..

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That is exactly what scripture says will happen before Christ's brilliant coming...

1A day of the Lord is coming, My Church Jerusalem (City of Christ/Peace), when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls/congregations.

2I will gather all the nations to My Church Jerusalem to spiritually fight against it; the Church (city) will be captured (infiltrated), the houses of prayer ransacked, and the women/ denominations raped. Half of the city will go into exile (desolated from Christ), but the rest of the people will not be taken from the My Church city. (Zech 14:1-3)

TribulationSigns said:

Was there great tribulation in AD 70 greater tribulation than at any other time period, or greater than any period since, or that ever will be? Of Course Not!!!

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Hear! Hear!

TribulationSigns said:

There is NO possibility of erroneously intermingling these prophesies, For God first said the tribulation was in the days of fleeing to the mountains, and "THEN" seals these truths by declaring unambiguously that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation "of those days" there is seen the sign of Christ's return. Selah! Well preterist doctrines are wrong.

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Angels will take the remnant Elect to the mountain of God, as the last men standing (Joel 2:1-12)

They will be transported in chambers that will be their hiding place, until the indignation from God's wrath is passed. Joel states that the land is as the garden of Eden before them (before the (indignation), and behind them (after the indignation) a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

TribulationSigns said:

The Church has had tribulation from it's inception as we, Saints, always had tribulation. But when Satan is loosed AFTER the building of the New Testament congregation is FINISHED, there will be greater tribulation, Iniquity will INCREASE, there will be greater abominations, so much that the Church will be left spiritually desolate. As the congregation, Israel of old was by it's abominations in verse 26. The abominations which the congregation did not recognize!. There is nothing new under the sun

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Now the abominations will manifest out in the open.

TribulationSigns said:

It is not a period of blood bath that premillennialists are screaming about. It is a spiritual war within the New Testament congregation where Satan can overcome the testimony of God's people with his own lies!

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The Church will finish its testimony and be martyred and the remnant elect are taken by the host of heaven in chambers to a safe mountain in the world, where they will maje the final stand, before the brilliant coming of Christ, when "Let there be Light".

TribulationSigns said:

What do you see out there in church all over the world? Are they faithfully representing God's kingdom where they tolerate homosexuality and transgenderism, allowing women as pastors, physical healing ministries, speaking in tongues, "Your Best Life Now" Gospel, Etc. etc. These are the "abominations" that lead many churches to desolate where God has warned His people (those who have been sealed of God) to escape to avoid being deceived like the rest! THIS is the great tribulation period

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Correct!

TribulationSigns said:

there are far too many professed Christians who are blind thinking that most prophecies are all about a plot of land and about a nation called "Israel" thinking they will be raptured out before terrible 7 years of trail.

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This is the strong delusion working in those who are deceived in believing that a manifested messiah will rule from tgat plot of land.

/nvm

FutureAndAHope said:

The church will go through the Tribulation, but I am not sure if every believer will suffer, the reason I say this is it is not a requirement (to my knowledge) to suffer to enter eternal life. David, Moses, Joseph all did not suffer but are in heaven. But those who do suffer will receive a greater resurrection.

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Those who remain to see the end, where death is more pleasant than life, as the earth rolls to and fro like a drunkard, the day is pitch black darkness, the smell of death from all the dead corpses that riddle the planet, the monsoonal rains and the barely breathable thick air and the muddy terrain that is like quick sand. The remnant before Christ's brilliant return, are likened to the last good tasting wine to the wedding supper of the lamb of God.

6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. (Joel 2:6)

Christian_Follower said:

Okay, the child issue seems to be a good argument for many, but lets re-examine itbu

If there is a pretrib rapture in which all believers and children are removed as most teach thus also must mean for 7 yrs there will be no children born, but of course most pretribers say not necessarily, so if God is loving enough to spare children with a pretrib rapture then He us evil to place children in the midsts of it after the fact

does that make sense?

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the perspective is that Because you have followed the instructions given by Jesus
Notice scripture tells us to call God our Father who is in Heaven
when you say "if God is loving enough to spare children with a pretrib rapture then He us evil to place children in the midsts of it after the fact"
He is not placing anyone in any midst
People will still give birth to children , that will not stop
It is all about the choice people make -
- your responsibility to your job
It is your responsibility to make sure you get to work on time - if you put that responsibility on your employer and not yourself you will lose your job
If you take the responsibility upon yourself , you will make sure that you do whatever is necessary to be done in order to get to work on time - if you do you will earn a living - if you don't you will not have any money to pay your bills

If you need to take the bus to work - it is your responsibility to make sure you get to the bus stop on time or you will miss the bus - it is your responsibility - If you live up that responsibility you will benefit from it to receive what will be given to you for doing your part

If you are too focused on the parties you attend that you cannot get out of bed and get to the bus stop before the bus arrives - you will miss out

God will rapture the people who take responsibility to make sure they are ready - as no one knows when the time will be the rapture occurs - people who take responsibility to make sure they are ready will take part of the rapture - those people who do not take responsibility to be ready will not take part ,
there is a short period of time between the pre trib rapture and the "gathering " that some people call the post trib rapture though the bible uses "gather together' at the post trib time - this is when all those who are in heaven are gathered together will those who made in through the Great trib alive and all believers will then be with Jesus as Jesus establishes His Kingdom on earth

some people think that the Great trib is for everyone but that wrong , it is only for the people who refuse or reject J
Jesus
When you study the Great Delusion that God is sending you will see that this Great Delusion is God sending a lie that people who reject Jesus will fall for - people who accept Jesus before the Great Trib will not fall for the lie because they have accepted the truth that Jesus is God -Jesus is Messiah
People who reject Jesus will see that a person that will come will seemingly have the powers of God and will deceive people into believing that he is God and will worship him
This is Gods way of 'weeding out' people that reject Jesus - the result is that it is the peoples responsibility to make sure they know Jesus as Messiah and what will happen in the coming future - so that God has given you everything you need to know in order to be sure that you are prepared for the coming rapture and not miss the bus

people who reject Jesus will be in the Great trib and then realize that what the bible said will happen - they are seeing it happen - result will be either they repent and refuse the Man of Sin /Great Delusion and realize that in order to have eternal life they must reject the false messiah/Great Delusion
Some people will still reject Jesus and curse God in Heaven for sending the great plagues and will not make it into the Kingdom of God
Jesus did not suffer all that He suffered to provide you a way to eternal life and then say you will suffer the Great Delusion - Jesus tells you what you need to know to avoid the Great Delusion - but some people are so involved with cultural life and the cares of this world that they do not concern themselves with what will come to pass

When Jesus tell us that we are children of the Light and not of darkness that we will not be caught off guard IF we focus on being prepared - those who are not prepared will not be ready - hence the parable of the 10 virgins - 5 were ready and 5 were not ready and the door was shut to those who are not ready

TribulationSigns said:

The Two Witnesses signifies True Church (not two human men as most believe) who receive power (Holy Spirit) to bring Gospel to the world for 1,260 symbolic days which covered most of the New Testament period UNTIL all Elect God intends to be sealed has been sealed, THEN the pit is opened and Satan will be loosened.

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100% correct!

TribulationSigns said:

And Satan's goal is to silence the testimony of the Two Witnesses. How? By waging war, bringing famine and disease where earthquake. But these are NOT to be understood as physical events as many people believe.

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It has bern from day one, but scripture states that the Church will finish her testimony. That is why he was spiritually chained from stopping the great commission, until the Church finishes it to God's satisfaction.

TribulationSigns said:

See... it is the end of their testimony FOR salvation. And with testimony being silenced, it is a time for judgment upon unfaithful congregation where no one being sealed/saved at this appointed time. The killing (silence) of Two Witnesses' testimony TAKES TIME, mirroring Israel!

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The mirroring pattern is inevitable towards the end of the new covenant age, before Christ's return.

TribulationSigns said:

Again, the believers of the New Testament are represented as the chosen, the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Jews, the holy nation, the people of the kingdom of Christ

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Absolutely!

TribulationSigns said:

And the unbelievers are represented spiritually as the reprobates, the nation of the Gentiles, the kingdom of Satan.

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Correct!

TribulationSigns said:

This is one Holy Nation and Kingdom against the unholy nation and Kingdom of Satan!

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That is the game in a nutshell.

TribulationSigns said:

This is teh war spoken of in the preceding verse, not war between literal nation Israel or Jews. Spiritual war and the rumors of wars between spiritual people, nations, and kingdom WITHIN God's congregation for the control of the church which Satan wanted!

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That fulfills Zech 14:1-3.
The fire the Church unleashes is the Word of Truth, which purges all the lies of the enemies of Jesus.

TribulationSigns said:

How do they fight in spiritual wars? With the WORD that comes out of our mouths! True Gospel v.s. False Gospel!

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The Fire they rain down, is the Holy Spirit inspired Word of Truth.

TribulationSigns said:

The more false gospel overcome the turth gospel in the church, it will invite spiritual famine which symbolically to signify a family (lack of) hearing the word of God! Not literal/physical foods from 7-11 stores!

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That is right. But the Judgement of God will also bring literal wars, famine and death.

TribulationSigns said:

He's not making the world physically sick or deseased, but in Loosing Satan he allows the unfaithful of the church to becomes spiritually sick. Remember, Christ came as the Physician (Matthew 9:12; Mark 2:17) illustrating to heal sin, our spiritual sickness.

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That is right!

TribulationSigns said:

What about earthquakes? Well it symbolize the shaking of the Lord upon the earth, HIS JUDGMENTS upon the world.

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These are the literal aspects that manifest towards the end.

TribulationSigns said:

Verse seven is an illustration of the shaking in the judgment of the Lord upon His Kingdoms. Famine and Plagues, these are symbolisms of the end time events which precede the second Advent of Christ.

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Are we here yet?

We are certainly living in The Times.

vinsight4u said:

The church will be here till the 7th trumpet sounds.
She will be waiting for the time of Rev. 14 when - Jesus Christ will come wearing one crown.
He will have a sickle for harvest and reap the earth.

Later - He will return with His saints for the time at the end of Rev. 19, but He will wear many crowns and not carry a sickle.

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Weren't you a pre-Tribber? I remember discussing end times with you years ago. So you've revised your view? For years I've trying to reason with Pre-Tribbers and Post-tribbers that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet to no avail. There aren't many Mid-Trib adherents.

TribulationSigns said:

In other words, if (and that's a big if) you are going to claim the prophecy was of a very literal/physical destruction, then to be Biblically consistent you must also claim the prophecy of the rebuilding of the ruins must also be taken as literal/physical, else you have confusion. And God is not the author of confusion, man is. But then, was the rebuilding not in Christ over 2000 years ago? It's inconsistent because it's not true.

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Just to add my input.
The desolation of the Jewish old covenant temple happened after the vail was torn. The spiritual was being declared right there and then, that the old priestly administration was sacked. The prophetical portion of scripture is covered in Isaiah 22:15-25. However the literal destruction of those who killed their Messiah and the literal burning of their city would also be fulfilled according to the prophetical parable of the wicked tenants and the parable of the Wedding Banquet.

TribulationSigns said:

The 24 elders represent the Elect. They are "elders" IN CHRIST for they have a wisdom of Christ. They cast their crowns to their King. That is Christ's crowns signifies being King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

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That is why he is called the King of kings.
The congregation of peace divided into two, the old and the new, that is the former sea and the latter sea.

half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee tothe valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal (eternity in Persian) (Zech 144-6)

TribulationSigns said:

And He will bring the armies of His Saints from old and new testament with Him at Second Coming (include those who are alive and remains to meet with them in the air) who clothed in fine linen and white and clean because their sins have been removed!

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Hallelujah!

Ronald said:

the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet to no avail. There aren't many Mid-Trib adherents.

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The seventh angel blowing a trumpet is Not the Last trump Paul spoke of - that is a misunderstanding based entirely on assumption -disregarding the Jewish Holy days when the trumpets are blown in succession
There is no bible support for what you claim -there is Much support of the Jewish Holy days when the trumpets are blown in succession

TribulationSigns said:

Sorry, Christ did NOT predict a physical destruction of the temple and the city in 70AD.

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He did according to his parable about the wicked tenants and the parable of the Wedding Banquet.

He also received the Pharisical testimony which was a testimony against themselves. How elaborate!

TribulationSigns said:

You can't have New Testament congregation already built at Pentecost with the power of the Kingdom to go forth into the world with Gospel BEFORE the physical destruction of the temple in 70AD. That is confusion. That is NOT what Scripture teaches.

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The Temple was made desolate, along with its congregation. The old covenant priesthood administration was also sacked according to Isaiah 22:15-25.

TribulationSigns said:

What you missed the point is that the Old Testament congregation of Israel ALREADY fell into desolate the moment Christ went to the Cross.

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100% Correct!

TribulationSigns said:

He was talking about the stone of the temple and the city at that time, the Jews, Matthew 24:1-2. No need for physical destruction of the temple to fulfill any prophecy! Besides, the physical temple was no longer holy after Christ went to the Cross so it can't fulfill Christ's prophecy that the abomination of desolation, spoke of Daniel the Prophet, standing in the HOLY place.

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No need for physical destruction for the changing of the Temple and the priesthood, but the Judgement was literal after 40 year probationary grace for Jews to individually join the new temple, under the new Melchizedeck priesthood.

TribulationSigns said:

The only holy place at this side of the Cross is the Church where Christ has built since Pentecost, especially where Holy Spirit dwells! Not physical temple nor Jerusalem in 70AD.

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That is right!

TribulationSigns said:

Therefore, the abomination of desolation that Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24 talked about will take place in the CHURCH prior to Second Coming! Not 70AD temple.

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Exactly!

double post.

The Times said:

double post.

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Not Exactly !

seventysevens said:

Not Exactly !

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God Bless you brother.