Are The Scriptures Sufficiently Clear?

chilehed · Apr 17, 2018

redleghunter said:
It is a mixed history and mixed bag of prohibitions and restrictions. I believe the above is a fair assessment as most are Roman Catholic sources.

It's not a mixed bag at all. Every restriction you cited was for the express purpose of ensuring that the people used faithful translations, not the false translations of heretics, and in every case the private study of Scripture was allowed as long as the Bishop was satisfied that only faithful translations were used. The facts show that it's a lie to claim that the Catholic Church forbade the people from owning and studying the Scriptures.

RDKirk · Apr 17, 2018

Vicomte13 said:
The RCC teaches that literacy, and therefore the Bible, are completely unnecessary for either hope or salvation. The Bible is great for teaching, but it is not necessary.

That does not follow. A person might be illiterate, yet have memorized much of the bible from having it read to him. Being unable to read the bible does not obviate it.

If it were possible for every bible to be destroyed and the memory of all scripture erased from every mind...where do you think hope and salvation would come from? There could be knowledge of the existence of God from creation, but that would be a hopeless knowledge, such as Job faced and such as those Greeks who believed in the Unknown God faced--knowledge that there was a God out there that they could never reach on their own.

I don't believe the Catholic church teaches that the bible is "completely unnecessary" for the Body of Christ, only that it's not necessary for any given individual...provided he has access to a teacher who does have the bible.

thecolorsblend · Apr 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Please forgive me brother it is not my attention to attack the Roman church. I just wanted to make the point that if someone is ignorant to the teachings of the Bible it would be impossible for them to make an educated decision on which church is apostolic in doctrine and tradition.

Uh huh...

Athanasius377 · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
What dodge? The only reason numbers of denominations are ever quoted IS about doctrinal schism.
So much easier to look at doctrinal variation.

Tradition - study early fathers - disciples of apostles, and succession. The life of Anthony by your namesake anasthasius and the councils he attended is a good snapshot of tradition across constantines reign.

Luther's quotes? I would have to look them up again, they are not that obscure, you find them,

I have three collections of the Fathers contained in about 70+ volumes and I have the Gregg translation "The Life of Anthony". I also have a the Percival collection of the Canons and Decrees of the first Seven Ecuminical Coucils. So my question is how do I know what is tradition and what is not? Since you have read the at least some of Fathers you realize the they say a lot of things about a broad range of theological topics. You gave me sources but no clear idea of which of the sources constitute Tradition and what does not. How does a Roman Catholic living in the 21st century know what is tradition and what is not from these sources?

I have looked for this quote and I have not found its origin. Luther is more often than not misquoted so I'm not all that surprised.

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

TuxAme said:
And I would argue that, yes, having 10000 different churches does suggest disunity. Why wouldn't you all be one Church?

Less divisions of the statement of faith. Differences in what you would call liturgy. The liturgy for your church is a unifying element of faith. Whereas for Evangelicals it is the zeal to spread the Gospel, ministry works and planting churches. Very much like the first evangelists.

The greatest unity among Evangelicals is the partnerships with other churches in local community ministry and overseas missionaries.

For example, my church is partnered with 3 other churches running a pro-life pregnancy center which ministers after care as well for baby mother and father. We also partner with over 5 local churches in running a foster care service.

Such is life in the Bible belt. We tend to refer ourselves as the buckle of the Bible belt here in Texas.

TuxAme said:
Can evangelicals say the same? Evangelical is just an "expression" of faith and is cross-denominational, isn't it?

That right there shows many denominations in harmony for the Gospel. Some of the greatest minds of Evangelicalism were Anglican. John Stott, who some dubbed the "Pope of Evangelicalism" and of course there is CS Lewis.

TuxAme · Apr 17, 2018

redleghunter said:
Less divisions of the statement of faith. Differences in what you would call liturgy. The liturgy for your church is a unifying element of faith. Whereas for Evangelicals it is the zeal to spread the Gospel, ministry works and planting churches. Very much like the first evangelists.

The greatest unity among Evangelicals is the partnerships with other churches in local community ministry and overseas missionaries.

For example, my church is partnered with 3 other churches running a pro-life pregnancy center which ministers after care as well for baby mother and father. We also partner with over 5 local churches in running a foster care service.

Such is life in the Bible belt. We tend to refer ourselves as the buckle of the Bible belt here in Texas.

That right there shows many denominations in harmony for the Gospel. Some of the greatest minds of Evangelicalism were Anglican. John Stott, who some dubbed the "Pope of Evangelicalism" and of course there is CS Lewis.

And you kind of prove my point. I'm not talking about, "Oh, yeah, we all work together for the common good". I'm talking about doctrinal unity.

Athanasius377 · Apr 17, 2018

TuxAme said:
242 Catholic denominations, huh? We have no denominations- we aren't a denomination. We don't divide ourselves. We do have different rites, however, and guess what? We're all in perfect communion with one another. Go to a Latin ("Roman") church and you'll be taught the exact same doctrine as someone in an Eastern rite or, more specifically, the Byzantine rite. A Latin Catholic can validly receive communion in any of the other rites within our Church because we all teach the exact same thing. What differs are the expressions of our faith (again, for example, the Latin rite uses unleavened bread for the Eucharist, and the Eastern rite uses leavened bread).

We're not denominated because we're all united. Can you say the same?

I actually agree with you as far as rites in the Roman Church. That was the point of the post. I don't think there are 242 catholic denominations which is why I am perplexed as to why it gets parrotted around so much just because it says something you wish were true about protestants.

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Do they have anything like Anathema Maranatha though?

Not so Medieval but Biblical:

Matthew 18: NKJV
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

1 Corinthians 5: NKJV
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

And a repentant brother is to be restored:

Galatians 6: NKJV
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.

Also 2 Corinthians 2:5-11

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
Surprisingly the quotation came from Luther!
I once spent a depressingly long time reading his writings!
His later letters show regret.

We've asked for the source of your assertion on Luther's regret.

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
It was less the professional reformers, than everyone however well educated or informed, deciding they too could choose doctrine, rather than follow his. " every milkmaid now has their own doctrine" .

That is the inevitable fruit of sola scriptura

What's the source of the milkmaid quote?

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
And you all disagree with each other what it means.

So it cannot be truth, since truth is one, and so God's word is one, so neither is it God's word, just words.

Unless you use the one true meaning from authority and tradition.

I repeat a somewhat amusing story that proves a point.

" so the Protestant says, ' so what paul is telling us in this verse is this.' ..'" giving his interpretation,

Then Paul appears and says " but that's not what I meant"

And the Protestant says " shut up - your opinion is irrelevant- , don't you realise we are sola scriptura?"

Many a true word spoken in jest.

73% of Roman Catholics support artificial contraception.

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
What scripture means.

Sure glad the apostles listened to Jesus and not their magisterium.

klutedavid · Apr 17, 2018

TuxAme said:
Scripture doesn't stand alone, if that's what your question is. When you force Scripture to do so, you have chaos- a hundred, a thousand, and a high estimate places the number at 40,000 different denominations all claiming Scripture to be "sufficiently clear" (whatever that should mean) while all are tugging in radically different directions.

And Satan is laughing all the way to the bank.

A valid point that you make, though there are many of those denominations (40,000), that are very similar in doctrine.

It should also be noted that the R.C.C is not without, an array of of it's own denominations.

Not being a member of any organized church gives the observer a decided advantage. One simply needs the truth and that truth is a very simple truth.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Why has the simple Gospel message been so distorted over time?

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

straykat said:
The very scripture that this very tradition gave to you, funnily. The same reasoning that deduced what fit or what didn't is what guided the Church to hand these scriptures down and teach with them.

Yet people would deny it's authority in one area.. but use the scriptures anyhow.

It's all very circular reasoning.

What exactly is your position in the matter?

You have opined on others comments but have not established your own.

thecolorsblend · Apr 17, 2018

redleghunter said:
Matthew 18: NKJV
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Mmm, good idea, but what does that actually look like? You know? Like, what is the Church supposed to do there exactly? Presumably it's something that isn't Anathema Maranatha.

redleghunter said:
1 Corinthians 5: NKJV
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Hm, interesting. But again, exactly what should the Church do? Exactly how should the Church do it? What exactly should the Church say? Again, I assume Anathema Maranatha isn't it. So what should be done then?

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Athanasius377 said:
Another dodge. Why is this so hard? Where can I find Tradition and where did you get the Luther quote from? Cite the source please. I know its not as easy as copy and pasting a word document but really want to know. The Jews have the Mishnah with their tradition and even have a commentary in the Talmud. So where can I find this Tradition that we need to interpret scripture?

The Roman Catholics have the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). It is a well organized tome which covers most of the required doctrines. But like big books most don't read it except RCIA adult converts .

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
Luther's quotes? I would have to look them up again, they are not that obscure, you find them,

Luther never said what you quoted or alluded to.

See how that works.

You made the claim it is your burden to present the evidence.

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
But he still held their teaching was right, from Moses seat, which was

Yes when they followed Torah and the Prophets.

W2L · Apr 17, 2018

Mountainmike said:
Which is true. Jesus disliked the way they had turned practice of religion into works of law. But he still held their teaching was right, from Moses seat, which was why I referred it.

But note... the tradition to which paul refers " stay true" is wholly different.

The reference to Pharisees tradition i.e. Works of law is prior to Pentecost which was when Jesus started his new covenant church tradition, ( Paul's mention of tradition ) sending them to teach all nations. And that is why scripture says " how can they teach if they are not sent" reinforcing appointed succession, and handing down by tradition.

So you're suggesting its good to observe vain traditions of men, which they added to Gods word?

redleghunter · Apr 17, 2018

chilehed said:
It's not a mixed bag at all. Every restriction you cited was for the express purpose of ensuring that the people used faithful translations, not the false translations of heretics,

That seems to be one side of the story.

chilehed said:
The facts show that it's a lie to claim that the Catholic Church forbade the people from owning and studying the Scriptures.

I believe the original word was "discouraged from."

Thus the mixed bag of edicts throughout history. Notice other than one quote I used Catholic sources to be fair on the matter.

What is clear from the sources is that the early church encouraged private study and meditation. Things became more restrictive as the laity became second class citizens with no voice in the church.

Are The Scriptures Sufficiently Clear?

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