Why Jesus is divine only in John?

Neostarwcc

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Jesus´s divinity was taught in other parts of my the New Testament besides the book of John. One verse that comes to mind is Titus 2:13. Like I've said to you before also his divinity was taught in the OT too. I don't know why Matthew, Luke, and Mark didn't write about his divinity but they did believe it. Peter also wrote about the Trinity in 2nd Peter. I believe all of the apostles believed that Jesus was God but for some reason not all of them wrote about it. It's a mystery.
 
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HypnoToad

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Jesus is certainly divine in the other Gospels, if one understands what they are reading.

1. Matthew 3:3 talks about John the Baptist "preparing the way of the Lord" - Matthew is citing a prophecy from Isaiah 40:3, where "the Lord" in Isaiah's Hebrew is "Yahweh" - the name of God. (Matthew was written to a Jewish audience, so they would have been aware of this.) But who did John prepare the way for? For Jesus. So if John was fulfilling a prophecy about preparing the way for Yahweh by preparing the way for Jesus, then Jesus is being equated to Yahweh.

2. Matthew 14 talks about Jesus calming a storm. The disciples' response in verse 33 was to "worship" Jesus. The Jews were pretty adamant about not worshiping anything but God. Jesus was pretty adamant about not worshiping anything but God. Jesus didn't stop their worship. This would have been a huge sin for all of them had Jesus not been God.

3. Mark 2 talks about Jesus healing a paralytic. Before He heals the man, Jesus forgives his sins. The scribes nearby started thinking that Jesus was guilty of blasphemy, since only God has such authority to forgive sins. Jesus replied (note that they didn't speak their concerns, they were only *thinking* it, yet Jesus knew and answered them) that He certainly did have that authority, the same authority God had.

4. Luke 1 talks about the angel Gabriel predicting John the Baptist's birth to Zechariah.
Note the exact words in verses 16 & 17:
"He will turn many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah."
Who does the "him" in the second sentence refer to? The Lord their God. Gabriel says John will go out before the Lord God. And then later in chapter 3, there is John, preparing the way for... who? ... Jesus. Again, do the math. Gabriel says John will go out before God. John goes out before Jesus. Kinda sounds like it's saying Jesus is God. (Luke 3:4 also makes the same reference to Isaiah 40:3 we saw in Matthew 3.)
 
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Neostarwcc

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Jesus is certainly divine in the other Gospels, if one understands what they are reading.

1. Matthew 3:3 talks about John the Baptist "preparing the way of the Lord" - Matthew is citing a prophecy from Isaiah 40:3, where "the Lord" in Isaiah's Hebrew is "Yahweh" - the name of God. (Matthew was written to a Jewish audience, so they would have been aware of this.) But who did John prepare the way for? For Jesus. So if John was fulfilling a prophecy about preparing the way for Yahweh by preparing the way for Jesus, then Jesus is being equated to Yahweh.

2. Matthew 14 talks about Jesus calming a storm. The disciples' response in verse 33 was to "worship" Jesus. The Jews were pretty adamant about not worshiping anything but God. Jesus was pretty adamant about not worshiping anything but God. Jesus didn't stop their worship. This would have been a huge sin for all of them had Jesus not been God.

3. Mark 2 talks about Jesus healing a paralytic. Before He heals the man, Jesus forgives his sins. The scribes nearby started thinking that Jesus was guilty of blasphemy, since only God has such authority to forgive sins. Jesus replied (note that they didn't speak their concerns, they were only *thinking* it, yet Jesus knew and answered them) that He certainly did have that authority, the same authority God had.

4. Luke 1 talks about the angel Gabriel predicting John the Baptist's birth to Zechariah.
Note the exact words in verses 16 & 17:
"He will turn many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah."
Who does the "him" in the second sentence refer to? The Lord their God. Gabriel says John will go out before the Lord God. And then later in chapter 3, there is John, preparing the way for... who? ... Jesus. Again, do the math. Gabriel says John will go out before God. John goes out before Jesus. Kinda sounds like it's saying Jesus is God. (Luke 3:4 also makes the same reference to Isaiah 40:3 we saw in Matthew 3.)

I forgot about those points. Jesus was pretty adamant about only worshiping God in Matthew 4:8-10 when he was being tempted by the devil. So why would he openly accept worship throughout the gospels if he were not God in the flesh?
 
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Greg Merrill

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Knee V

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John is the latest of the Gospels and reflects a developing Christology not found in the other gospels.
Additionally, John had a purpose for writing his Gospel that the others did not. The prevailing heresy of John's day was a sort of proto-Gnosticism, and John's writings reflect that. He emphasizes that True God truly becomes true man.
 
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John 1720

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Why don't Matthew, Mark & Luke say something about divinity of Jesus?
I mean I don't know if there is!
Can someone comment if there are any verses!
Hi Sir,
This sounds like something you've been told but really only a fairly sloppy read of the New Testament could miss the fact that all the Gospels, and not just John's Gospel, proclaim Jesus to be the Son of God, Son of Man, and the Christ - which are all Divine terms. Add to that there are also many letters or epistles, which, in many cases, predate the Gospels that say or infer the same.


For example if we only look at the title "the Son of God" we find that not only His Apostles and followers proclaimed that title, as well as Jesus Himself inferring it, but we also see that Jesus enemies inferred that He had proclaimed Himself to be the Son of God and accused Him of blasphemy. However, it doesn't stop there. The devil and his minions also inferred it or proclaimed it when they were overpowered by Christ and cast out.

HIS APOSTLES AND FOLLOWERS PROCLAIMED IT:
  • Mat 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
  • Mat 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”
  • Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
  • Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
  • Luk 22:70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”
  • Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
  • Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
  • Mar 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
  • Luk 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
HIS enemies also ATTEST JESUS BOTH CLAIMED HE WAS THE SON OF GOD OR INFERRED IT
  • Mat 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
  • Mar 14:62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
  • Mat 27:40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”
  • Mat 27:43 “He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ ”
  • Mat 27:54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!
  • Mar 15:39 So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”
THE DEVIL AND HIS MINIONS, WHICH HE OVERCAME, INFERRED IT OR PROCLAIMED HIM AS THE SON OF GOD
  • Mat 4:3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread
  • Mat 4:6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’and,‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’
  • Mat 8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
  • Mar 3:11And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”
  • Luk 4:3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”
  • Luk 4:9 Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here.
  • Luk 4:41 And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.
OTHER INFERENCES TO HIS DIVINITY:
  • Act 8:37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
  • Act 9:20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
  • Rom 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
  • 2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me, Silvanus, and Timothy—was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
  • Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me
  • Eph 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
  • Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
  • Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
  • Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
CHRIST IS EQUIVALENT TO GOD WITH US - GOD INDWELLING MAN -MATTHEW 1:23 (Luke 2:1–7 )​
  • Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
  • THE WISE MEN FROM THE EAST WORSHIPPED HIM
  • Mat 2:11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
  • MARK DECLARES JESUS TO BE THE SON OF GOD
  • Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
  • AT HIS BAPTISM HE IS DECLARED TO BE THE SON OF GOD Matthew 3:17 (Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21, 22; John 1:29–34 )
  • And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
  • JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, HAS THE POWER TO FORGIVE SINS -
    • Mat 9:2-7 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you." And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, "This Man blasphemes!"
    • But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? "For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'? "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"—then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
    • And he arose and departed to his house.
  • JESUS SELF PROCLAIMS HIMSELF AS THE CHRIST
    • Mat 10:32-40
    • "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
    • Mat 11:25-30
    • At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
    • All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
  • SON OF MAN, ANOTHER MESSIANC TERM FOR CHRIST AND SON OF GOD, IS LORD OF THE SABBATH DAY
    • Mat 12:6-8 "Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
PROPHESIES HIS RESURRECTION AS SON OF MAN
  • Mat 12:39-40 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

GREATER THAN A PROPHET
  • Mat 13:17 "for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, (IN REFERENCE TO HIMSELF) and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

THE BOAT SCENE – WALKING ON WATER

PETER IN FAITH RECOGNIZES JESUS AS THE CHRIST – THE SON OF GOD
Mat 16:13-20
  • When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

JESUS TRANSFIGURED TO HIS GLORIOUS STATE MATHEW 17
  • 1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
  • 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

The Trustworthy Prophetic Word 2 Peter 1
(Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35 )
  • 16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

JESUS SPEAKS OF HIS POST RESURRECTION PRESENCE AMONG THE PRAYERFUL MATTHEW 18
  • 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
JESUS SPEAKS OF HIS COMING DIVINE KINGDOM – MATTHEW 19
  • 28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
JESUS TELLS THE PARABLE ABOUT HIS DIVINE SONSHIP AMONG MAN – MATTHEW 2 The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers
(Mark 12:1–12; Luke 20:9–19 )
  • 33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
  • 40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
  • 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
  • 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’ ? [43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
Woe to the Scribes and Pharisees Matthew 23
(Mark 12:38–40; Luke 20:45–47 )
  • 1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age Matthew 24
(Mark 13:3–13; Luke 21:17–19 )
  • 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
  • 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
  • 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Coming of the Son of Man Matthew 24
(Mark 13:24–27; Luke 21:25–28 )
  • 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Coming of the Son of Man cont’d Matthew 25
  • 13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations – Matthew 25
  • 31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
  • 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
  • 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
  • 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The Plot to Kill Jesus – Matthew 26 Son of Man self-identified
(Mark 14:1, 2; Luke 22:1, 2; John 11:45–53 )
  • 1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, 2 “You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
  • 23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
(Mark 14:27–31; Luke 22:31–34; John 13:36–38 )
  • 31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written ‘I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
  • 32 But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”
  • 33 Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.”
  • 34 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”

Jesus Faces the Sanhedrin testifies that He is the Christ – Matthew 26
(Mark 14:53–65; Luke 22:66–71; John 18:12–14, 19–24 )
  • 57 And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 58 But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest’s courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end.
  • 59 Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, 60 but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward 61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’ ”
  • 62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
  • 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
  • 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
Jesus Dies on the Cross – Matthew 27
(Mark 15:33–41; Luke 23:44–49; John 19:28–30 )
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!

The Great Commission
(Mark 16:14–18; Luke 24:36–49; John 20:19–23; Acts 1:6–8 )
  • 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.


JOHANNINE LETTERS
1Jo 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Rev 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

Sorry this is so long but there are so many inferences to cover

In Christ, Patrick
 
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I think it is important to note that the references in the synoptic gospels to Jesus are at most ambiguous, and more likely do not reflect any divinity. They are entirely applicable to statements venerating an individual who is either the promised Jewish messiah or simply a holy man. It is only in John where we find a specific identification of a divine being. How would we imagine the Christian religion without the Gospel of John altogether?! As a great holy man, possibly the promised Jewish messiah? One unsolved question is how such a holy man in Judaism could be unmarried since Jewish tradition teaches the notion of an unmarried man being "plag gufo" (half a body). In any case, it is very likely that the gospel rounded out the outreach to pagan mentalities during the time of Constantine when the new empire in Constantinople was legitimizing a new religion that separated itself from traditional paganism in favor of Jewish ideas that were very popular. In other words it was seeking to create a religion that "had something for everybody" in th Empire.
 
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Duvduv

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I think it is interesting that it is John that directly attributes the existence of Jesus to before the 1st century. If so, this reinforces the question as to how people before the year 30-33 attained salvation and atonement for their sins since the dawn of creation. Nothing in the Gospel of John addresses this, and there is nothing in any other Christian scripture that resolves this thorny question.
 
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HypnoToad

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I think it is important to note that the references in the synoptic gospels to Jesus are at most ambiguous, and more likely do not reflect any divinity. They are entirely applicable to statements venerating an individual who is either the promised Jewish messiah or simply a holy man. It is only in John where we find a specific identification of a divine being. How would we imagine the Christian religion without the Gospel of John altogether?! As a great holy man, possibly the promised Jewish messiah? One unsolved question is how such a holy man in Judaism could be unmarried since Jewish tradition teaches the notion of an unmarried man being "plag gufo" (half a body). In any case, it is very likely that the gospel rounded out the outreach to pagan mentalities during the time of Constantine when the new empire in Constantinople was legitimizing a new religion that separated itself from traditional paganism in favor of Jewish ideas that were very popular. In other words it was seeking to create a religion that "had something for everybody" in th Empire.
It's rather unfair to judge Christianity by trying to imagine it without the Gospel of John. That's like trying to argue, "cars aren't very good vehicles, because if you take away the wheels, they can't go anywhere." Well, the fact of the matter is that cars *DO* have wheels, and you have to judge them accordingly. John *IS* part of Christianity, and you have to judge it accordingly.

I think it is interesting that it is John that directly attributes the existence of Jesus to before the 1st century. If so, this reinforces the question as to how people before the year 30-33 attained salvation and atonement for their sins since the dawn of creation. Nothing in the Gospel of John addresses this, and there is nothing in any other Christian scripture that resolves this thorny question.
A thorny question? Since when? This has been addressed by many Christian theologians many times. The Bible itself (in both Testaments) addresses it. It's nothing new, and your notion that it is an unanswered question is simply false. Salvation before Christ was attained in the exact same way as it is attained since Christ: faith in God.
 
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The bottom line is that the same omnicient God who can provide salvation through faith before the first century can do it afterwards too. So the need for Jesus is not logical, especially if mankind were always sinners. John doed not explain the change.
 
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John 1720

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I think it is important to note that the references in the synoptic gospels to Jesus are at most ambiguous, and more likely do not reflect any divinity.
Hi Sir,
As I stated in the previous post (#27 of the thread) Jesus, was called the Son of God, the Christ, the Son of Man by Himself, by His Apostles, by His enemies, ect. So I fail to see the ambiguity that you mention with regard to any pre Johannine understanding of Christ's divine nature in both the synoptic Gospels and the early apostolic letters that predate them. Perhaps if you could be more specific that might help to make your point more debatable. Right now there's not much to go on in order to understand how you draw that conclusion. Going back over some of the support I mentioned in my previous post I'll rehash some of my inferences that highlight His divine nature for brevity. Perhaps that might make for a better starting point.


  • Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
  • Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
  • Mark 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
  • Mark 9:7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
  • Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
  • Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
The Letters

  • Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?
  • Heb 1:1-3 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. -pre AD 70 temple destruction
  • Colossians 1:16-20 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. - no later than AD 62 since Colossae was destroyed around that year by an earthquake
They are entirely applicable to statements venerating an individual who is either the promised Jewish messiah or simply a holy man. It is only in John where we find a specific identification of a divine being.
  • I simply think that is not true, since as I stated the term "the Son of God" infers divinity as well as the theological statements we see in the pre Gospel letters.
How would we imagine the Christian religion without the Gospel of John altogether?! As a great holy man, possibly the promised Jewish messiah? One unsolved question is how such a holy man in Judaism could be unmarried since Jewish tradition teaches the notion of an unmarried man being "plag gufo" (half a body).
  • Well for one sir, we simply do not have to imagine it as that would be superfluous. We also don't have to imagine anything in the Jewish Biblical text that points to the Christ as having some sort of requirement to be married either because that requirement simply does not exist either.
In any case, it is very likely that the gospel rounded out the outreach to pagan mentalities during the time of Constantine when the new empire in Constantinople was legitimizing a new religion that separated itself from traditional paganism in favor of Jewish ideas that were very popular. In other words it was seeking to create a religion that "had something for everybody" in th Empire.
  • Sorry but that is merely supposition and speculation that is really quite unsupported. The wealth of pre-Constantine Early Church Father literature alone documents the same orthodox beliefs about Christ, the cross and the resurrection as we find in the New Testament. And, as mentioned above, there is plenty of Synoptic Gospel and early epistolary support to impeach or nullify that conjecture.
In Christ,
Regards, Patrick
 
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John 1720

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The gospels are interpretive narratives written well after the fact. John was about 60 years after the crucifixion and Mark was the earliest at about 40 years.
Hi Jack,
I think Mark was probably more like 30-35 years after the crucifixion, since it prematurely ends with a hint that it wasn't quite completed; also given that the apostle Peter was executed by Nero probably no later than AD67, him being Mark's main witness according to Papias and Irenaeus. Even given that your dating is not that far off, however, I've got to ask, so what?

Why wouldn't eyewitness testimony still be completely in play three to 6 decades after the fact? Your stating that they are interpretive narratives is simply conjecture. We have ancient testimony that give them apostolic authority so no reason to reject them as mere interpretative narratives based on conjecture.

Now most Americans believed these eyewitnesses 75 years after the fact so why exactly should we choose not believe the Apostles and their scribes then when they wrote only a mere 30 to 60 years later? Their experiences with Jesus were probably etched in their souls even more deeply than the men below. And the men below will probably never forget the events of that day. We tend to remember indelible events just like it was yesterday. Ask a 9-11 survivor or a war vet about the events of a day and they'll recount it in living color for you. ;)

In Christ, Patrick
 
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The bottom line is that the same omnicient God who can provide salvation through faith before the first century can do it afterwards too. So the need for Jesus is not logical, especially if mankind were always sinners. John doed not explain the change.
False.

That faith (before Jesus' earthly ministry) worked because God planned from the beginning for Christ to bring salvation.
 
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That does not explain how mankind from Creation until 33 AD attained salvation and heaven if Jesus was not around on earth. None of this is addressed in any Christian scriptures.
Yes, actually it is. Faith seen from afar or before the atonement is still faith and that faith whether before, during or after resides in the promised Messiah whom we claim has come not only for the Jewish nation but, according to the Abrahamic Covenant, all nations. We have all been blessed through the promised seed of Abraham.

Jesus stated this promise was fulfilled
John 8:56 , "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

So the blessing God promised Abraham was fulfilled as claimed by Yeshua, who claimed to be the promised Messiah or the seed by which Israel and all the ethne' of the world (i.e. the nations) would be blessed Gen 12:3.

The letter to the Hebrews as well as other letters cover this in the NT.

By Faith We Understand Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Faith at the Dawn of History
(Gen. 4:1–16; 5:18–24; 6:5—8:22 )

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Faithful Abraham
(Gen. 15:1–6; 21:1–7 )

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
The Heavenly Hope
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
The Faith of the Patriarchs
(Gen. 22:1–14; 48:8–16; 50:22–25 )

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
The Faith of Moses
(Ex. 2:1–10; 12:31–51 )

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.
By Faith They Overcame
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
The Race of Faith - we are all one whether they were looking forward to the promise, were witnesses to the promise, or live post Pentecost
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 
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HypnoToad

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That does not explain how mankind from Creation until 33 AD attained salvation and heaven if Jesus was not around on earth. None of this is addressed in any Christian scriptures.
It says you follow Judaism. Is the Judaic God bound by time? Because the Christian God is not. So, Jesus not coming until a later time has no bearing on God being able to apply that sacrifice to people before then.
 
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Duvduv

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If there were any distinction then logically there no distinction at any time in history.
Thus, if Jesus had no role before the first century despite the statement in the Gospel of John, then no role is required now either. Salvation does not require Jesus appearing in the 1st century.
 
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If there were any distinction then logically there no distinction at any time in history.
Thus, if Jesus had no role before the first century despite the statement in the Gospel of John, then no role is required now either. Salvation does not require Jesus appearing in the 1st century.
Who said Jesus didn't have a role? He always had His role as Savior. God being able to apply a future sacrifice to an earlier time is not in any way saying that Jesus didn't have a role. That is a complete non sequitur.
 
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Well, if he did he must have been hiding it from mankind! Because people were acquiring salvation and heaven without needing his crucifixion. And if with an omnipotent omniscient God it was possible to be forgiven without any Jesus, then surely it is the same today. This is the unsolvable paradox of Christianity.
 
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