What Good is Free Will ?

LoveofTruth · Apr 16, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
"Believe" is a verb. An action.

A work.

Romans 4:5
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

BNR32FAN · Apr 16, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I have asked certain questions along this line to him but he runs from answering them. I think he knows that his doctrine is on shaky ground and he cannot answer, So he simply avoids any hard questions and strong verses that correct him..Instead he uses a few selected verses out of context to try and make his case. But the verses he uses do not mean what he is making them to mean. When you show him the meaning and word study and context and other verses that directly rebuke his understanding, he runs away or simply uses a few verses out of context.

If you ask him to interpret the meaning of the verses he also is unable to do it. , so he simply avoids any discussion and verses that directly rebuke the teaching and there are many verses. He will then simply say,"well you are not ready for this, it's too spiritual, or maybe your not the elect etc" .This is part of the issue and problem.

One of the dangers spiritually is when any person takes one verse and makes it fight against another verse and does not harmonize the verses and expound the meaning of both. To just leave two verses that seem to contradict eachother and choose one verse over the other is not being honest with the text. many try to do this to maintain a false teaching or idea and will not hear the contrary verses. They trouble their doctrine too much.

Yes apparently you are correct because he still declines to answer any of my questions. If your beliefs aren’t in line with ALL the scriptures then they are false. Not just one or two verses.

sunlover1 · Apr 16, 2018

John tower said:
...Why do all you people keep demanding your own will : Do you think you could do better job then God : I assure you , you couldn’t ! So stop demanding your own will and please leave it to God : We will all be better off! All these people want to exalt themselves and help God as if he needs their help : Thank God there is only God’s will, and all things will be done right : despite what these people think!

Kind of ironic
I don't see what you see.
AT ALL

sunlover1 · Apr 16, 2018

Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

thecolorsblend · Apr 16, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Romans 4:5
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

The passage you cited above relates to justification. Your earlier post was about salvation. So which of those two is it?

PS- Believe is still a verb. An action. A work.

LoveofTruth · Apr 16, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
The passage you cited above relates to justification. Your earlier post was about salvation. So which of those two is it?

PS- Believe is still a verb. An action. A work.

Belief also relates to salvation they are both connected

1 Corinthians 15 - 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

We heard the word we believed it is not s work and to keep saved we keep it (the gospel) in memory no sacraments to be saved , no water baptism added to the gospel to be saved, no sabbaths, Mosaic law, Lord supper etc .

LoveofTruth · Apr 16, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
The passage you cited above relates to justification. Your earlier post was about salvation. So which of those two is it?

PS- Believe is still a verb. An action. A work.

belief is an action of our hearts, as Romans 10 says with the heart man believeth unto righteousness...

thecolorsblend · Apr 16, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Belief also relates to salvation they are both connected

Let's try to stay on track here.

First you mention salvation. Then you changed the subject to justification. You are aware, aren't you, that those are two different things?

LoveofTruth said:
We heard the word we believed it is not s work and to keep saved we keep it (the gospel) in memory no sacraments to be saved , no water baptism added to the gospel to be saved, no sabbaths, Mosaic law, Lord supper etc .

...

Yeah, we'll circle back to this after we've gotten the distinctions between justification and salvation cleared up.

LoveofTruth · Apr 16, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Let's try to stay on track here.

First you mention salvation. Then you changed the subject to justification. You are aware, aren't you, that those are two different things?

...

Yeah, we'll circle back to this after we've gotten the distinctions between justification and salvation cleared up.

I said they were connected

what do you suppose "justification of LIFE is?

Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"

and

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Ephesians 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

sunlover1 said:
Kind of ironic
I don't see what you see.
AT ALL

1 Corinthians 2 .

LoveofTruth · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
If the way of man is not in himself how can he have a free will :

The way of man is not in himself refers to Christ who is the way is not in them until they repent and believe the truth. Christ Jesus is the way the truth and the life,

But there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is death.

Many have gone their own way as scripture clearly shows and it shows they have free will and a will contrary to God's will.

Again scripture corrects you in this doctrine you hold. Here is just a small sample of scriptures,

Proverbs 16:25
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Ezekiel 22:31
"Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God."

Ezekiel 36:17
"Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman."

Acts 14:16
"Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways."

Isaiah 65:2
"I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own"

Judges 2:19
"And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way."

Proverbs 1:31
"Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices."

Isaiah 56:11
"Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."

Matthew 7:13,14
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

and so Jesus said

"John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:..."

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
That verse you bring in John does not mean what you try to make it. Jesus chose the apostles for a specific work, they didn't choose that. Read the context he is speaking to his apostles. Paul said he was an apostle not of man nor by man, but by Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost made men overseers. But they were already elders and had faith. God chooses for specific purposes certain people. But this has nothing to do with men receiving the free gift that God offers. To them that received him to them gave he the power to be called the sons of God.

also we read about "choice" and "choose" in scripture, all over the place.

I know these verses will be denied by you and ran from and not answered. or you will simply chant the few verses you do not understand out of context. But consider them anyway. They correct your words.

and you cannot put one verse against another. They must all be harmonized. Like when Paul says if we seek to please men we are not the servants of Christ, but he also said he pleases all men in all things. The two verses do not contradict eachother, but the unwise and babes and those who do not understand it might appear to contradict.

Here is just a small sample of verses that could be brought against your teaching. They are plain to see to the unbiased reader.

Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

1 Chronicles 21:10
"Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee."

Job 34:4
"Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good."

Proverbs 1:29
"For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:"

Proverbs 3:31
"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."

Isaiah 7:16
"For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."

saiah 56:4
"For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;"

Philippians 1:22
"But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not."

1 Corinthians 9:17
"For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

Deuteronomy 18:6
"And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which the Lord shall choose;"

etc etc etc etc etc etc

and who can forget this verse that shone brigthly against your teaching here and that you did not even try to comment on

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built [they did this not God] also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not [God did not command them to do it so it was their own will], nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:[it didn't even come to God's mind, that should be enough to show the error in your doctrine John, but....when you see verses like this that trouble you you seem to hide from them, this is not honest dealing with scripture.]

Eph 1(4) : Mt 13(11) : Only God can open your mind to these things : Obviously I cannot : 1 Cor 2 .

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
The way of man is not in himself refers to Christ who is the way is not in them until they repent and believe the truth. Christ Jesus is the way the truth and the life,

But there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is death.

Many have gone their own way as scripture clearly shows and it shows they have free will and a will contrary to God's will.

Again scripture corrects you in this doctrine you hold. Here is just a small sample of scriptures,

Proverbs 16:25
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Ezekiel 22:31
"Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God."

Ezekiel 36:17
"Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman."

Acts 14:16
"Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways."

Isaiah 65:2
"I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own"

Judges 2:19
"And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way."

Proverbs 1:31
"Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices."

Isaiah 56:11
"Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."

Matthew 7:13,14
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

and so Jesus said

"John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:..."

Well only the Lord can show you the simple truth that he is in control of all things , I cannot , So we will have to leave it to him in his time , as striving is not good : Peace brother .

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Continue reading then read chapter 10.

“Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:1-4‬

Woah wait a minute how are they refusing to accept God’s way? Wouldn’t that mean that God refused to make them accept His way and somehow made them cling to their own way? How do they cling to their own way? They don’t have free will. Oops

Who were of old ordained to this condemnation !

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
So if there is no free will then why is there judgement? Shouldn’t God Himself be the one judged if He chose who will be saved and who will do evil? If we don’t have free will then God is responsible for all the evil in the world and John 3:16 is a lie. Because God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whosoever shall believe in Him will never parish but have eternal life. If what you say is true it would read for God so loved some people in the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whosoever He chooses will never parish and have eternal life. So why all the parables and teachings about doing good works and repenting of sin? If we don’t have free will we cannot do anything God doesn’t want us to do. Here’s a big question if there is no free will why does everyone including those who are saved still sin? Why is God making His chosen people sin? Is God responsible for the evil in the world?

Romans 9(11-22).

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

sunlover1 said:
Jesus tells us to pray that His Will be done, because He WANTS His will to be done.
I want His will to be done in my life.
I LOVE His Will.

Is it God's will for you to sin?
Because you do sin.

That’s kind of funny : You say you want his will to be done : but your always arguing for your own will : Eph 1(11).

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
I agree, free will is the real deal. I'm glad you came around on this.

Rom 13(1), Eph 1(11) : I guess at this point I’m doing what they call : Beating a dead horse : So I’ve shared enough with you now : Not right to strive : So I’ll give it a rest now : agreed ?

LoveofTruth · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
Eph 1(4) : Mt 13(11) : Only God can open your mind to these things : Obviously I cannot : 1 Cor 2 .

That’s not a response to the verses I posted that correct your view.

I can answer your verses and harmonize them with what I teach, you should be able to do the same or else you are blind in this area and only God can open the eyes .

You need to examine every scripture I gave and harmonize them with the text you try to give . Terr can be no contradiction. If there is then your holding one verse against another and leaving them there . This is not an honest way to deal with scripture.

LoveofTruth · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
Rom 13(1), Eph 1(11) : I guess at this point I’m doing what they call : Beating a dead horse : So I’ve shared enough with you now : Not right to strive : So I’ll give it a rest now : agreed ?

Romans 13 speaks of civil government not the same word “powe” as in Acts 1 of the power of the spirit

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
I’m pretty sure free will is a real thing though, you know?

Just cannot let go of that false teaching : Like a drug .

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