The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

David Kent

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Too bad you cannot prove that fallacy assumption
just because you prefer it has already happened does not you you can prove it - it makes no sense to think it has
Give us the detailed scope of how the events come to pass when Jesus returns without the ridiculous notion that he destroys the earth when he returns

It is up to you to prove the truth of that assumption, when the temple was destroyed, and because you cannot see the truth of that , you have to have a new temple built so it can be destroyed. The prince did come and did destroy the temple. finis.

  • 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein
 
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dougangel

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1. The pagan Roman armies under Titus, which were God's instruments of judgment and destruction. In similar fashion elsewhere, e.g. Jeremiah 43:10-13, God described the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, whom He chose as His instrument of judgment and destruction, as being "My servant." That would of course also include the armies under his control.
If the pagan Nebuchadnezzar and his armies could be characterized as "God's servant", then the pagan Roman armies under Titus could legitimately be characterized as "the people of the prince" Messiah.

2. The Jews themselves, whom Josephus documents as being responsible for an enormity of the suffering that occurred: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world." Contemporary Jews concur:

Ok You can Interpret that way. I have to admit that. Or perhaps God mean't them to be interchangable. And where both right. It's definatley an amazing prophecy taking in to account when it was written.

If the prince is christ completely then it must be meaning the Jews destroyed the temple by there actions.

IF there are 2 princes then it can mean titus and the romans which is more historically accurate.

Technically both could be right.

I guess, as with the crucifixtion where getting into the realm of who is responsible. Jew or gentile.

Luke 21

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 
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dougangel

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It is up to you to prove the truth of that assumption, when the temple was destroyed, and because you cannot see the truth of that , you have to have a new temple built so it can be destroyed. The prince did come and did destroy the temple. finis.

  • 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein

Fundamental Jews are wanting to build a new temple on the mount.
 
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BABerean2

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Luke 21

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

We find the future Second Coming of Christ when "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Paul also referred to this period of time.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Part of the Israelites will be blinded until "the times of the Gentiles" becomes full.
.
 
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dougangel

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Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


That is the prophetic language of Judgement coming on the Israel people.

The problem is we are not accustomed to dealing with such symbolic language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, etc., without thinking literally. However to the Jews, this was not a new language. Matthew’s Jewish readers were certainly well versed in the sort of symbolic language and imagery and understood the meaning. The sun, darkening and the moon don't give its light; and the stars falling from the sky, represents the ceasing of a kingdom."

The prophet Isaiah is a good example of how this symbolic language is used in Jewish thought. This type of apocalyptic, figurative language, was used to describe the desolation and the judgment of God by invading forces. Take for example the prophesied fall of Babylon to the Medes in 539 BC.

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil..." (Isaiah 13:9-11)."

This is applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened (9,10).

Whenever there was an overthrow of the rulers and authorities of a nation, it was represented by the sun, moon, and stars not give their light.

In the judgments of God, through all the prophets, the heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like represented the overthrow of governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Joel 2:10-11 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness. The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai 2:6-7 to speak of political overturns. "For thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and the dry land; 'and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts.

Notice how the shaking of heaven and earth are associated, with the overthrow of thrones and kingdoms; and the strength of the Gentiles. Haggai 2:21-23 "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying: 'I will shake heaven and earth. I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms; I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms. I will overthrow the chariots And those who ride in them; The horses and their riders shall come down, Every one by the sword of his brother

"The destruction of the Jews by Antioch Epiphanes, is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. (Daniel 8:10)

And further note Amos 8:9, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day." This had reference to the northern kingdom.

Now note the prophecy of Ezekiel against Egypt: "And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 32:7-7). This applied to Egypt, as mentioned in verse. 2, 12, 16.

In other contexts, when the stars fall, they fall to the earth, a sure sign of temporal judgment (Isaiah 14:12; And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.

In Isaiah 13:6-13 we see that destruction of the heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire.

Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Nineveh (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703 BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572 BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11. There is no question about when these things would happen. We have literature from the Old Testament that we must read figuratively unless the word demand otherwise.

When Jesus said, "Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken (Matthew 24:29)." No doubt it is the overthrow and abolition of the Mosaic dispensation, or old covenant; the destruction of the Jewish governments, governors, dominions and political states.

In Bible figurative language, when the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken refers to governments and rulers.

The writer of Hebrews borrowed, the language from Haggai 2:6-7 and writes, Hebrews 12:27-28 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

The Jewish readers were certainly well versed in this symbolic language and imagery. Matthews aim is to stare up the memory of his Jewish audience about what was written in their Old Testament scriptures. When the ruling authorities of the nation of Israel passed away, it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky, the moon did not give its light and the passing of the old heavens and earth etc.
 
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David Kent

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If the prince is Christ completely then it must be meaning the Jews destroyed the temple by (there) their actions.

My wife always reads the bible in French mainly from the Ostervald translation which is an update of the Olievetan, the first Bible in French dated 1533 and based on the Texte Reçu, the received text.
I found in interesting that it says instead of Messiah the Prince it has Christ, le Conducteur, and instead of the 'prince' it has 'a conducteur' Conducteur = Driver. The people d'un (of a) conducteur who will come.

The 1910 Louis Segond edition has 'l'Oint (Anointed) au conducteur. And the people d'un chef (of a chief) who will come.

Notice that both versions have an indefinite article for the prince who is to come.
 
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jgr

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My wife always reads the bible in French mainly from the Ostervald translation which is an update of the Olievetan, the first Bible in French dated 1533 and based on the Texte Reçu, the received text.
I found in interesting that it says instead of Messiah the Prince it has Christ, le Conducteur, and instead of the 'prince' it has 'a conducteur' Conducteur = Driver. The people d'un (of a) conducteur who will come.

The 1910 Louis Segond edition has 'l'Oint (Anointed) au conducteur. And the people d'un chef (of a chief) who will come.

Notice that both versions have an indefinite article for the prince who is to come.

Interestingly, of the English version translations on Bible Gateway, only the CJB and TLV render the Daniel 9:26 article as "a" rather than "the". Those two versions advertise themselves as having a Jewish orientation.

The Hebrew interlinear shows "the prince", although there does not appear to be a separate word for the article itself.

The Hebrew "nagid", for "prince", is identical in both instances in the passage, i.e. there is nothing to suggest that the second instance of "prince" is different from the first.
 
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dougangel

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2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein

That's judgement day. Not the second coming.
 
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BABerean2

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That's judgement day. Not the second coming.

Based on the scripture below, they happen on the same day.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The "time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some and destruction for others, is found right after in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In Revelation 11:18 above we find the living "nations", and "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead".

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.
 
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dougangel

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So you think they are different days?

According to Rev 20 they are. You need to read Rev 19,20,21.

Rev 19 is the 2nd coming. The righteous and the righteous dead meet Christ in the air and reign with christ for a thousand years.
In Rev 20 there is the millenium and the unrighteous dead are raised. Then judgement.
Revelation 20 New International Version (NIV)

The Thousand Years

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Judgment of Satan

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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dougangel

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Based on the scripture below, they happen on the same day.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The "time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some and destruction for others, is found right after in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In Revelation 11:18 above we find the living "nations", and "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead".

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

Those verses have to do with the final judgement in Rev 20. See my post #192
 
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BABerean2

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Those verses have to do with the final judgement in Rev 20. See my post #192

How do you ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:18?

.
 
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dougangel

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I'm not ignoring anything. You really haven't read anything carefully have you ?
Your mixing judgements up. I will spell it out for you taking time and effort. Lol.

Of course there is wrath and Judgement at the 2nd coming.
Christ destroys the unrighteous bodies at the 2nd coming.
Satan is Chained
The righteous reign with Christ for a thousand years.
The unrighteous are raised after the thousand years over
Have they learn't there lesson ? No. They attack christ. (this deals with alot of the prophecies about christ being king over everyone ectra)
The Judgment of the Dead
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

The 2nd coming and the Judgement of the dead are both periods of wrath.
 
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BABerean2

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I'm not ignoring anything. You really haven't read anything carefully have you ?
Your mixing judgements up. I will spell it out for you taking time and effort. Lol.

Of course there is wrath and Judgement at the 2nd coming.
Christ destroys the unrighteous bodies at the 2nd coming.
Satan is Chained
The righteous reign with Christ for a thousand years.
The unrighteous are raised after the thousand years over
Have they learn't there lesson ? No. They attack christ. (this deals with alot of the prophecies about christ being king over everyone ectra)
The Judgment of the Dead
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

The 2nd coming and the Judgement of the dead are both periods of wrath.

If you are not ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead" with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18, why did you fail to mention that verse?

When you "spelled it out", "taking time and effort", "Lol", you failed to mention Revelation 11:18.

We would like to see you explain the text of Revelation 11:18, instead of posting an "Lol", which often comes from those who cannot defend their own doctrine...


.
 
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dougangel

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If you are not ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead" with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18, why did you fail to mention that verse?

When you "spelled it out", "taking time and effort", "Lol", you failed to mention Revelation 11:18.

We would like to see you explain the text of Revelation 11:18, instead of posting an "Lol", which often comes from those who cannot defend their own doctrine...


.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and [the time] to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.

I beleive Rev 11:18 is talking about after the milleium where the nations were wroth right before final judgment.But after the 2nd coming the righteous and the unrighteous are sealed unchanged so wrath or judgment is a process from the 2nd coming to the final Jugment where the spirit is destroyed.

Rev 11
The Judgment of Satan

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books
. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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BABerean2

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I beleive Rev 11:18 is talking about after the milleium where the nations were wroth right before final judgment.But after the 2nd coming the righteous and the unrighteous are sealed unchanged so wrath or judgment is a process from the 2nd coming to the final Jugment where the spirit is destroyed.

We are making a little progress, because you have just admitted that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

In the same way that you believe Revelation 11:18 takes place after Revelation chapter 20 the opposite is also possible.
Revelation chapter 20 could be symbolic of the entire "Church Age".



Do you believe Christ will be conducting the funeral services of dead mortals for 1,000 years, after His Second Coming?


.
 
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dougangel

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We are making a little progress, because you have just admitted that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

In the same way that you believe Revelation 11:18 takes place after Revelation chapter 20 the opposite is also possible.
Revelation chapter 20 could be symbolic of the entire "Church Age".



Do you believe Christ will be conducting the funeral services of dead mortals for 1,000 years, after His Second Coming?


.

Ok will he is very cunning how he is presenting that. He's saying there isn't actaully a 1000 years and totally ignoring the content of rev 20.
I do agree that the saints are not on earth during the millenium. They come down after it. Just don't agree with that.
 
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Davy

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No. In Daniel the Abomination which causes Desolation is profaning the truly holy spot in which YHWH's Presence dwelt to accept animal sacrifices.

Those ended with Jesus on the cross. There is no way YHWH is going to invalidate Yeshua's sacrifice and allow new animal sacrifices. To do so would only confirm the doubts of modern day believers in Judaism. Then why would they believe in Yeshua ha Mashiach????

That's actually kind of funny, because God's Hand has nothing to do with orthodox unbelieving Jews still wanting to worship according to the old covenant, since they still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Some orthodox Jews in Jerusalem since the last couple of decades have been sacrificing animals already on passover, on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount.


From - ynet.news - Temple Mount Faithful sacrifices lamb in pre-Passover ritual:

"Kohanim in authentic attire blessed the excited crowd, Levites sang hymns, and a young lamb was offered up as a Passover sacrifice in keeping with all the dictates of the ancient ritual."
 
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