Bible verses on Annihilation?

Der Alte · Apr 13, 2018

GUANO said:
I believe a literal interpretation of this parable requires a lot more faith and 'imagination' than I have.
If you take this parable literally then you must also believe the earth is a flat disc, covered by a solid dome held up by great pillars, and that above the solid dome is salt water.

Why would I have to believe that? I know of no scripture which says the earth is a flat disc, etc. I think that was a pagan myth. There are more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible but that does not mean all or most of the Bible is figurative. There is an old adage. "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

Hades is literally under the ground and people are in there, alive, being both burned and slowly devoured by worms in perpetuity. That's quite disturbing to me to think of how you can rectify that with the rest of Scripture.

See my explanation below.

I have no doubt that many early Christians and Jews were superstitious---nothing wrong with pure, innocent, faith. If it helps your faith to believe that God like a big person that lives in the sky and watches over us, then go for it! Me, my faith or conscience doesn't grant me that privilege.

You should be very careful about posting insults. I have never said anything which could logically be understood as me believing "God like a big person that lives in the sky and watches over us"
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

•“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief.

GUANO · Apr 13, 2018

Der Alter said:
Why would I have to believe that? I know of no scripture which says the earth is a flat disc, etc. I think that was a pagan myth. There are more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible but that does not mean all or most of the Bible is figurative. There is an old adage. "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

Because that is the exact model that Genesis illustrates. Simply research Hebrew Cosmology.

I never said nor do I believe that the majority of the Bible is figurative. There are precise and very simple ways to determine if a passage is figurative or not...

Der Alter said:
You should be very careful about posting insults. I have never said anything which could logically be understood as me believing "God like a big person that lives in the sky and watches over us"

I wasn't insulting you or anyone else. If you're insulted by my assumption that you believe that god is some kind of creature like us, but invisible, with superpowers then I don't know what to tell you. That's what it sounds like you believe to me. I don't need to be careful about that at all.

Der Alter said:
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Der Alter said:
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,

•“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief.

The contradictions in the passages posted above are mind-boggling. None of these represent a holistic model in-tune (no we're not talking about music, we're talking about 'spirit') with scripture...

Der Alte · Apr 13, 2018

GUANO said:
Because that is the exact model that Genesis illustrates. Simply research Hebrew Cosmology.

Please show me where Genesis illustrates a flat disc, salt water over a dome etc? Not interested in your view of Hebrew cosmology unless it is clearly stated in scripture.

I never said nor do I believe that the majority of the Bible is figurative. There are precise and very simple ways to determine if a passage is figurative or not...

There are indeed simple ways to determine if a passage is figurative or not and I think I stated the most important. If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Lots of folks conjure up a figure of speech to make scripture support their assumptions/presuppositions.

I wasn't insulting you or anyone else. If you're insulted by my assumption that you believe that god is some kind of creature like us, but invisible, with superpowers then I don't know what to tell you. That's what it sounds like you believe to me. I don't need to be careful about that at all

If you want to know what I believe ask me, don't assume and make insulting accusations.

The contradictions in the passages posted above are mind-boggling. None of these represent a holistic model in-tune (no we're not talking about music, we're talking about 'spirit') with scripture...

Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have known I said there were various beliefs, there were Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, scribes etc.. That some appeared contradictory to others is not relevant. That does not prove that the views I highlighted did not exist. Perhaps you should try actually reading my post and comprehending what I actually said.

Butch5 · Apr 13, 2018

Monna said:
I don't wish to comment directly on the issue of eternal torment vs annihilation as I haven't come to an unwavering conclusions yet. But on other aspects of this discussion.

I find your comments, Der Alter, very interesting. First, it is important to try to learn how people at any particular time in history understood things - in this case how Jesus' audience understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man. We learn a lot from understanding their perspectives. However, if there is one further thing we learn from this, it is that these perspectives were not necessarily correct. We know this from the fact that the disciples seemed incapable of accepting that the Messiah should die; and even after the resurrection, until Paul's vision between Athens and Corinth, saw the crucifixion as a major mistake that God had to correct, rather than a planned and deliberate offering to God for the remission of sins.

Furthermore, Jesus used metaphors and similes frequently in teaching the people. When he said "the kingdom of heaven in like ...." it was clear to everyone that he was speaking metaphorically. In other cases he simply told a story "A man went out to sow seed..." and his inner core of disciples wondered what the point of the story was. He had to explain it clearly to them, saying also that he taught this way so that the people "having ears to hear, still would not understand." Old Testament Jews were convinced that God had his "abode" in Zion, and in the Temple in particular. It seems that it was first in the Babylonian captivity that they fully grasped the fact that J--H was everywhere - in spite of prophetic poetry (in the Psalms) that had already pointed this out. Jesus made it clear to the Samaritan lady that "places" do not confine God to either Samaria or Jerusalem, that God is Spirit and we must worship him in spirit (and in truth). But this didn't stop Jesus telling his closest disciples "In my Father's house are many rooms. I go to prepare a place for you."

And who would have dared to publicly declare that Jonas, that very reluctant prophet, in the very act of disobedience and fleeing from God, then in his 'repentance' and 'burial' in the fish's belly were symbolic of the Messiah's own death and resurrection? This would surely have fit into your category of "imaginative interpretation of scripture." Hebrews is full of examples in which the OT was to be interpreted figuratively and metaphorically. And this definitely required someone to use their imagination. How many other examples that we have not been told of, did Jesus give to the pair on the road to Emmaus, when he apparently showed from Moses and through all the prophets, that the Messiah must die and rise again? How many specific examples can we show from the OT that clearly predict the the death and resurrection of the Messiah? Certainly the scribes and the Pharisees didn't have a clue, and the Sadducees didn't even accept the possibility of the resurrection. (That's why they were Sad, you see? )

As to Butch5, not many people reading the scriptures, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus, would agree that these are nothing more than "inferals." It is one thing to take up all the scriptures that support the view of annihilation, full honesty requires that a convincing explanation of all those scriptures that are used to support everylasting conscious torment. Including Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. What does the scripture actually mean "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10) I once asked a JW what this mean. After a few minutes deep thought he said "whatever it means, it does not mean for ever and ever."

And for me there is a further question. If godly people who have studied the scriptures longer and more deeply than I am likely ever to achieve arrive at such opposite views, and if the sciptures are supposed to present "the truth" why is such a question so unclear or disputed? (Obviously, it is not to either of you, as you have already made up your respective minds - I'm sure you would say, 'through much prayer and meditation and study' but you apparently disagree.) I am left with possibly two alternatives: one - we shouldn't put so much emphasis on the after-world, slipping thereby into the sin of Egypt - but rather on bringing the kingdom of God to reality in the here and now, as in the prayer Jesus taught us; two - (simply a different angle of the first, really) it is left unclear for the same reason Jesus told parables ... a challenge to our commitment to gaining insight into what is important, a distraction for those all too willing to get caught up in divisive issues, or to leave the door open to use the fear of eternal torture as a tool to "win souls for Christ."

I may never make up my mind about the issue. It shouldn't matter to me. What should matter to me is to trust God to do (and judge) rightly, to seek his kingdom and his righteousness first and foremost in my daily walk here and now. But thank you both for presentation of the basis for your views. God bless.

Hi Monna, I can and will address you post more tomorrow. Right now I'm out of town and stuck using my phone to reply. You are right that we should be able to address the passages that seem to support the other view. And, I am able to do so. I can address the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. I can address the thief on the cross. I can address the souls under the altar. I can address them all. And I'd be more than willing to do so if you'd like. I can also give you links to some very in depth study on each of these subjects if you'd like that. As I said I"ve studied this topic deeply and for several years. I am quite familiar with both sides of the argument and am more that adequately able to defend my position and show why the ETC doctrine is not Biblical.

Butch5 · Apr 13, 2018

DW1980 said:
Yes please, I would be interested in how you got to this.

Some of this sounds like what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe (we don't have an immortal soul, for example)? How do you understand Jesus' teaching that the body and soul are separate?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

If the soul was physical, then if someone kills a person, they would be killing the soul. But Jesus said we can't do that. I also don't think I would agree that those who have died in Christ are not with God. Otherwise why would Paul have said:

“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9 NIV)

Thanks

Hi DW1980,

I'm out of town at the moment and using my phone to reply. However, I should have my computer tomorrow and can reply more fully. Regarding your quote of Paul from 2 Cor 5, note the context of the entire section. It is about the resurection. Also, Paul stated plainly in 1 Co 15, if there is no resurrection those who had died in Christ had perished. He gives no hope for the dead Christians other than the resurrection. However, as I said, I should be able to reply more fully tomorrow

Butch5 · Apr 15, 2018

DW1980 said:
Yes please, I would be interested in how you got to this.

Some of this sounds like what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe (we don't have an immortal soul, for example)? How do you understand Jesus' teaching that the body and soul are separate?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

Firstly, the word soul is used in different ways in Scripture. It is used concretely as a living being. It's used abstractly as life. The would soul in scripture is often translated, life. regarding Jesus' words, a person can kill the body, but the person's life is ultimately in God's hand because God will resurrect the dead. So even though a person is killed, the body, their life is not over because God will one day resurrect them. However, when God destroys a person they are completely destroyed, the body and the Life are gone.

Butch5 · Apr 15, 2018

DW1980 said:
Yes please, I would be interested in how you got to this.

Some of this sounds like what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe (we don't have an immortal soul, for example)? How do you understand Jesus' teaching that the body and soul are separate?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

If the soul was physical, then if someone kills a person, they would be killing the soul. But Jesus said we can't do that. I also don't think I would agree that those who have died in Christ are not with God. Otherwise why would Paul have said:

“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9 NIV)

Thanks

To really understand this as with any Bible doctrine we have to take some things into consideration. One thing is that we are dealing with translations. Every translator has theological bent and they will translate according their beliefs. I mean, they're not going to translate it in a way they believe is wrong. However, if what they believe is wrong then they will translate it that way. So we have to keep in mind that passages may need to be examined more closely. Another, and more important thing is our own preconceptions. As people we read our own beliefs into the Scriptures also. For instance, if we believe a spirit is a disembodied person we read that into the word spirit when we see it in Scripture. However, that may not be what the Scriptures mean by the word spirit. So, we have ask if our definition of words actually matches that of the Scriptures. Sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't we run the risk of reading something into the Scriptures that is not there. So, when we come to Scripture we really have an open mind and question those things we already accept a fact. another thing is that some passages of Scripture are interpreted based on ones theological beliefs. Again, if those beliefs are wrong the doctrine based on them is likely to be wrong also.

With that said, I would begin with what is a man? In Gen. 2:7 Moses recorded how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

From this we see that man was created from the dust of the earth. This tells us that man is simply a physical being created from the elements of the earth. This is confirmed by God in Gen 3

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

Notice in this passage God told Adam, 'you're dust.' That's what man is. We see in Gen 2:7 that after God created man He breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. This shows us that a living soul consists of a man (in this case) and the breath or spirit of life from God.

However, it's not just man that is a soul.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:21 KJV)

The word Creature here is the Hebrew for soul. So here the passage says that God brought forth every living soul that moves which the waters brought forth abundantly.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. (Gen. 1:24 KJV)

Here too, the word creature is the word Nepehsh, soul.

So we can see that all kinds of living animals are called souls. This shows that a living being is a soul. However, soul is also used metaphorically and abstractly. Abstractly it's used of life.

20 I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth. (Jer. 34:20 KJV)

Here the word Life is the Hebrew word Nephesh, soul. There are many examples of Nephesh being translated as life

Soul or Nepehsh is also used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance. (Ps. 42:5 KJV)

Here soul is being used to describe David's feelings.

However, in the concrete sense The soul is a living being. The Scriptures say that the soul is in the blood. We know that blood is essential to life. Without blood there is no life.

14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. (Lev. 17:14 KJV)

I Here the word Nephesh, soul, is translated life. God said that the soul of all flesh is in the blood. We can see from these passages that soul is tied directly to physical life.

So, from Gen. 2:7 we see that man is dust, God's breath or spirit is breathed into him and he became a living soul. God told Adam that he would return to the dust.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?(Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)

Here in Ecc 3 we see that in death man is no different than the animals, all return to the dust. However, note that all have on breath or spirit. There is a breath or spirit in man and it is the breath or spirit of life that God breaths into man. Note where that breath or spirit goes when man dies. It goes upward. In Ecc 12 we see that it returns to God.

5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:5-7 KJV)

The breath or spirit of God returns to God when man dies. So we see that the breath returns to God and the body, man, returns to dust, thus there is no longer a soul as it's components have been separated.

This is why I believe in Annihilation. All of man is accounted for at death. The body returns to dust, the breath or spirit returns to God. There is nothing left to live on after death. This is why the only hope Paul holds out for death Christians is the Resurrection.

I'll stop here because the post is getting long there is much more that can be said and I suspect you'll have questions. This should be a good starting point.

ClementofA · Apr 15, 2018

Der Alter said:
There are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible one of those was epizeuxis the repetition of words for emphasis since Hebrew lacked superlatives. The first occurrence of epizeuxis is in Gen 2:17 where God says מות תמות/muth tamuth, literally dying you shall die, translated as "you shall certainly die." An example of epizeuxis in the new testament is when Jesus says αμην αμην λεγω υμιν/amen, amen lego umin, "Verily, verily I say to you." Another example is τους αιωνας των αιωνων/tous aionas ton ainion, for ever and ever

Why change the literal "dying you shall die" (which makes perfect sense & is not a mere repetition like Amen Amen) to the interpretative so-called translation ""you shall certainly die."?

12 points re forever and ever being finite
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2018

ClementofA said:
Why change the literal "dying you shall die" (which makes perfect sense & is not a mere repetition like Amen Amen) to the interpretative so-called translation ""you shall certainly die."?

Thank you for this biased unsupported opinion. Try researching "Figures of speech in the Bible" that is where I got my info. Which OBTW is quoted 30+ times at your pet website "Tents-Я-us." All of the phrases I mentioned are listed under the heading of epizeuxis. Repetition for emphasis.

GUANO · Apr 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
Please show me where Genesis illustrates a flat disc, salt water over a dome etc? Not interested in your view of Hebrew cosmology unless it is clearly stated in scripture.

Genesis 1.

Der Alter said:
There are indeed simple ways to determine if a passage is figurative or not and I think I stated the most important. If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Lots of folks conjure up a figure of speech to make scripture support their assumptions/presuppositions.

The problem is that the concept of consciousness during death is not "good sense". We learn in the first chapters of Genesis that death is a real thing. We learn in the first chapters of Genesis what a 'soul' is and that the soul that eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (errs/sins) "dies"---Strongs 4191, literally means to perish, to be destroyed...

Sheol is the same thing... 'A place of darkness where all the dead go'... Darkness is the opposite of Light, which is consciousness, being 'awake'...

They believed that everything that happened on earth was figurative of what happens in the 'spirit' or 'essence of the matter', you place a body in the "family tomb" and it becomes the "Bosom of Abraham", a metaphor for the soul or spirit of the individual being placed 'inside' the spirt or soul of the ancestor who is the image of the nation--going down into 'history'... Why would you put a body in the earth in a ceremonial fashion and inscribe 'family' words or symbols upon it if it didn't mean anything? Do you know what it means? Have you deeply meditated or 'thought about' this 'thing'? Is this most ancient practice what you would consider inspired by God?

Then ask yourself, what is God? What is YHWH? It is a spirit, a principle. The principle of the Tetragrammaton or the 'four-letter-word', "YHWH". It is thought to mean "The One who Is and Causes To Be" or "The Existing One", revealing It's Name to Moses as "I Am"... What does that mean to you?

Der Alter said:
If you want to know what I believe ask me, don't assume and make insulting accusations.

I never made insulting accusations.

Der Alter said:
Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have known I said there were various beliefs, there were Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, scribes etc.. That some appeared contradictory to others is not relevant. That does not prove that the views I highlighted did not exist. Perhaps you should try actually reading my post and comprehending what I actually said.

I read your post. We can certainly agree that there were various modes of interpretation, even in ancient times. Do you believe that contradictory doctrines are included in the scriptures themselves?

Monna · Apr 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

So Jesus' explanation to his disciples of the storyof the sower and the seed is "nonsense." The story by itself makes eminent plain sense. So do a lot of his stories, including that of the prodigal son, which has very important deeper meaning.

If you think that this arguement is obviously wrong, I would assume it would be because the writer of the gospel has already made it obvious (to you) in his presentation that these stories or parables had deeper meanings. Many of the people hearing them did not understand that. Including Jesus' own disciples who were mysterfied over why Jesus told this story of the sower, the content of which was so plain and straightforward that it seemed ridiculous to tell it - everybody there already knew the facts it presented.

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2018

GUANO said:
Genesis 1.
The problem is that the concept of consciousness during death is not "good sense". We learn in the first chapters of Genesis that death is a real thing. We learn in the first chapters of Genesis what a 'soul' is and that the soul that eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (errs/sins) "dies"---Strongs 4191, literally means to perish, to be destroyed...

Did the souls that ate of the forbidden fruit die the day they ate?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

There are three passages in the Bible which speak of the dead in sheol and hades moving, speaking acting etc.. Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:19-21, Ezekiel 32:28-30 and Luke 16:19-31

Sheol is the same thing... 'A place of darkness where all the dead go'... Darkness is the opposite of Light, which is consciousness, being 'awake'...

Before and during the time of Jesus many Jews believed in a place of eternal fiery torment and they they called it both sheol and Gehenna.
Strongs H7585 שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל she'ôl she'ôl
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Proverbs 23:14
(14) For thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [שְׁאוֹל]

Can punishing a child save him from death

They believed that everything that happened on earth was figurative of what happens in the 'spirit' or 'essence of the matter', you place a body in the "family tomb" and it becomes the "Bosom of Abraham", a metaphor for the soul or spirit of the individual being placed 'inside' the spirt or soul of the ancestor who is the image of the nation--going down into 'history'... Why would you put a body in the earth in a ceremonial fashion and inscribe 'family' words or symbols upon it if it didn't

mean anything? Do you know what it means? Have you deeply meditated or 'thought about' this 'thing'? Is this most ancient practice what you would consider inspired by God?

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Then ask yourself, what is God? What is YHWH? It is a spirit, a principle. The principle of the Tetragrammaton or the 'four-letter-word', "YHWH". It is thought to mean "The One who Is and Causes To Be" or "The Existing One", revealing It's Name to Moses as "I Am"... What does that mean to you?

How is this relevant to this thread?

I read your post. We can certainly agree that there were various modes of interpretation, even in ancient times. Do you believe that contradictory doctrines are included in the scriptures themselves

?

Do you believe that contradictory doctrines are included in the scriptures themselves?

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2018

Monna said:
So Jesus' explanation to his disciples of the storyof the sower and the seed is "nonsense." The story by itself makes eminent plain sense. So do a lot of his stories, including that of the prodigal son, which has very important deeper meaning.

All the unquestioned parables are introduced as parables are introduced as parables and/or explained later by Jesus.

If you think that this arguement is obviously wrong, I would assume it would be because the writer of the gospel has already made it obvious (to you) in his presentation that these stories or parables had deeper meanings. Many of the people hearing them did not understand that. Including Jesus' own disciples who were mysterfied over why Jesus told this story of the sower, the content of which was so plain and straightforward that it seemed ridiculous to tell it - everybody there already knew the facts it presented

.

The rest of your post is moot, see above response.

GUANO · Apr 16, 2018

Monna said:
So Jesus' explanation to his disciples of the storyof the sower and the seed is "nonsense." The story by itself makes eminent plain sense. So do a lot of his stories, including that of the prodigal son, which has very important deeper meaning.

If you think that this arguement is obviously wrong, I would assume it would be because the writer of the gospel has already made it obvious (to you) in his presentation that these stories or parables had deeper meanings. Many of the people hearing them did not understand that. Including Jesus' own disciples who were mysterfied over why Jesus told this story of the sower, the content of which was so plain and straightforward that it seemed ridiculous to tell it - everybody there already knew the facts it presented.

The most awesome thing about this parable, and most of the others, is that the prophecy itself is being fulfilled in real-time as it's being spoken... He's literally speaking in a sort of 'code' about why he speaks to them in 'code' lol and still to this day people don't get it... Or, people get a few, but then they decide that some of the other parables are literal for some reason... In the parable of the sower, we're just dirt... Which is what Genesis says we are... Which is what all the prophets say we are... Our lives are like plants and our deeds are fruits...

Another thing is that, if you put your faith in Jesus and believe the parable is literal for whatever reason you are saved by your faith itself so in fact, the more 'childlike' your understanding the more 'spiritually safe' you are in the long run lol...

GUANO · Apr 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
How is this relevant to this thread?

It's relevant because it seems that you don't know what a 'spirit' is, or rather, you define it

Der Alter said:
Did the souls that ate of the forbidden fruit die the day they ate?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
There are three passages in the Bible which speak of the dead in sheol and hades moving, speaking acting etc.. Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:19-21, Ezekiel 32:28-30 and Luke 16:19-31

Before and during the time of Jesus many Jews believed in a place of eternal fiery torment and they they called it both sheol and Gehenna.
Strongs H7585 שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל she'ôl she'ôl
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Proverbs 23:14
(14) For thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [שְׁאוֹל]
Can punishing a child save him from death

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online

How is this relevant to this thread?

Do you believe that contradictory doctrines are included in the scriptures themselves?

You're argument is that other religious groups believed in a literal place of fiery torment and so it must have existed. The scripture in Genesis is clear that we "parish"... So how do you reconcile the soul "perishing" along with it being eternally tormented in the underworld?

I bring up the nature of God or YHWH because it seems that you don't know what "spirit" is... I don't want to assume, but it seems like you think spirits are living, invisible creatures that interfere in the lives of human beings like one would find in a fiction novel, an epic poem, a myth, or Hollywood movie... Like, some kind of person with superpowers? I just don't believe that so that's probably our main disconnect...

Monna · Apr 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
All the unquestioned parables are introduced as parables

Introduced as such by the writer of the Gospel - not explicitly by Jesus. That is my point. YOU are told these are parables and led to look for deeper meanings. The audience wasn't told that.

Der Alter said:
I stated the most important. If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

So a scriptural text that on its own makes plain sense, can still have a deeper meaning - and traditional Jewish exegesis explects all scripture to have a deeper allegorical meaning.

Would you, at face value, see the repentance of Jonas, his being thrown into the sea and swallowed by a great fish, only to be vomited up on the shore sometime later, as a picture of Jesus identification with sinners, being killed, buried and resurrected? If Jesus himself hadn't made this connection, most people would feel it presumptuous to say that this punishment of a disobedient prophet had any connection whatsoever with the Messiah. So "plain sense" texts not only can be, but probably SHOULD be explored for their deeper meaning.

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2018

GUANO said:
It's relevant because it seems that you don't know what a 'spirit' is, or rather, you define it
You're argument is that other religious groups believed in a literal place of fiery torment and so it must have existed. The scripture in Genesis is clear that we "parish"... So how do you reconcile the soul "perishing" along with it being eternally tormented in the underworld?
I bring up the nature of God or YHWH because it seems that you don't know what "spirit" is... I don't want to assume, but it seems like you think spirits are living, invisible creatures that interfere in the lives of human beings like one would find in a fiction novel, an epic poem, a myth, or Hollywood movie... Like, some kind of person with superpowers? I just don't believe that so that's probably our main disconnect...

I do so love being lectured by people who don't seem to know what they are talking about. I don't think I have said or implied what a spirit is. But now that you have opened that can of worms let us review some scripture which state some characteristics of the spirit.
Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
Some heterodox religious groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Ephesians 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), a self, (John 16:13), or a mind, (Romans 8:27).
There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts of the apostles 5:3-4, Acts of the apostles 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal –Hebrews 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:7-8
10. Distinct will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
11. Loves - Romans 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts of the apostles 8:29; Acts of the apostles 13:2
13. Distinct mind from the father and the son – Romans 8:27
14. Distinct self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Matthew 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts of the apostles 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts of the apostles 7:51
21. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts of the apostles 5:3
23. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Galatians 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Peter 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts of the apostles 13:24; Acts of the apostles 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts of the apostles 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Corinthians 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts of the apostles 2:4; Acts of the apostles 4:29-31; Acts of the apostles 5:18-20; Acts of the apostles 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts of the apostles 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1,14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Ephesians 3:16; Acts of the apostles 1:8; Acts of the apostles 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts of the apostles 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[91] Total scripture

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org
DTL.org/Trinity

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2018

GUANO said:
It's relevant because it seems that you don't know what a 'spirit' is, or rather, you define it
You're argument is that other religious groups believed in a literal place of fiery torment and so it must have existed. The scripture in Genesis is clear that we "parish"... So how do you reconcile the soul "perishing" along with it being eternally tormented in the underworld?

"Parish" is a political area division much like a county.
When Jesus taught about,

•“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief.

I bring up the nature of God or YHWH because it seems that you don't know what "spirit" is... I don't want to assume, but it seems like you think spirits are living, invisible creatures that interfere in the lives of human beings like one would find in a fiction novel, an epic poem, a myth, or Hollywood movie... Like, some kind of person with superpowers? I just don't believe that so that's probably our main disconnect...

Since I have already corrected your misunderstanding, this part of your post is moot.

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2018

Monna said:
Introduced as such by the writer of the Gospel - not explicitly by Jesus. That is my point. YOU are told these are parables and led to look for deeper meanings. The audience wasn't told that.

And you know the audience was not told they were parables how? Jesus Himself introduced some of His parables, the disciples seemed to know when what Jesus was saying was a parable and so did the Jews.

Matthew 21:33
(33) "Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country.
Matthew 21:45
(45) When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.
Mark 13:28
(28) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Luke 8:9-11
(9) And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant,
(10) he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'
(11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

So a scriptural text that on its own makes plain sense, can still have a deeper meaning - and traditional Jewish exegesis explects all scripture to have a deeper allegorical meaning.
Would you, at face value, see the repentance of Jonas, his being thrown into the sea and swallowed by a great fish, only to be vomited up on the shore sometime later, as a picture of Jesus identification with sinners, being killed, buried and resurrected? If Jesus himself hadn't made this connection, most people would feel it presumptuous to say that this punishment of a disobedient prophet had any connection whatsoever with the Messiah. So "plain sense" texts not only can be, but probably SHOULD be explored for their deeper meaning.

The problem with your explanation is many people think virtually everything in the Bible is figurative and thus we have a plethora of private interpretations. So we should throw out all literal meaning and choose which figurative meaning we like best.

Butch5 · Apr 16, 2018

DW1980

There are also a number of passages that show that the dead are in fact not conscious.

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

Here David indicates just what we saw in Genesis and Ecclesiastes. The breath goes forth, the man returns to the dust. He also adds that his thoughts perish that very day. If his thoughts perish that day he surely can't be conscious in some other form if his thoughts have perished.

Psalm 37 speaks of the end of the wicked.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. (Ps. 37:8-9 KJV)

Notice that those who wait on the Lord will inherit the earth (land).

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Ps. 37:10-11 KJV)

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Ps. 37:20 KJV)

Notice the wicked perish. Also note that they burn up. They are consumed. They don't burn for eternity.

34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. (Ps. 37:34 KJV)

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. (Ps. 37:35-36 KJV)

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. (Ps. 37:38 KJV)

These are a few of the passages that show that the dead are dead and not alive in some other form.

Here Davids says that none that die can praise the Lord.

17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Ps. 115:17 KJV)

It's a pretty common belief among Christians that dead believers are alive and with the Lord. Yet according to David none of the dead can praise the Lord. There is quite a bit in the Scriptures that show this.

The idea of eternal conscious torment is drawn from a few misunderstood passages. Part of this is due to a wrong translation of the word aion. Aion means an age. However, it is sometimes translated as eternal or forever. The word is used of periods of time but the length of that time is determined by the context in which the word is used. We see historical periods divided up as the Stone Age or the Iron Age. These are not identical in length yet they are both called an age. We see the same thing with people. Your age is different than someone else's age.

For example, one passage that is often quoted to support ETC is a passage from Jesus.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matt. 25:46 KJV)

The word translated everlasting is aionios, the adjective form of aion. Here it is translated everlasting. However, that is wrong and we can see that from the words of Jude. Jude said that Sodom and Gomorrah were an example of aionios (everlasting) fire.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7 KJV)

Sodom and Gomorrah sufferend aionios fire. Well, we know that those two cities are not still burning today. If they were people would see it and know about it. They're not still burning. This shows us that aion/aionios doesn't mean eternal. It means an age, they burn for period of time. All of the passages that are used to try to support ETC likewise can be understood other than the way they are presented by those holding the ETC position. The easiest way to show they don't support ETC is to study them in context. The context will show that the passage is not support for ETC.

Bible verses on Annihilation?

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