How most churches today totally quench God’s Spirit !

aiki · Apr 16, 2018

Oldmantook said:
The problem with your hermeneutic as I see it is that you are the one who then gets to choose which passages are applicable today and which are not.

No, as I explained in earlier posts, it is the text of Scripture itself that establishes what is broadly applicable and what is not.

Oldmantook said:
Paul's salutation is clear as he himself penned that he is wrote to "all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus Paul meant for his epistle to not only be directed to the Corinthians but also wider in scope to all believers who live elsewhere. That should be plainly obvious to you.

Again, you are not understanding Paul's salutation correctly. Here it is in full:

1 Corinthians 1:2-3
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verse 2, Paul describes the Corinthian believers: "sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." He then, using the word "with," joins them in this description to all who have called upon the name of Christ. In doing so, Paul is not saying that everything in his letter is to all saints, only that the Corinthian Christians are part of a broader community of people who have also called upon the name of the Lord.

Oldmantook said:
Thus Paul meant for his epistle to not only be directed to the Corinthians but also wider in scope to all believers who live elsewhere. That should be plainly obvious to you.

Paul's letter to the Corinthians contains much that may be applied to all believers but his salutation cannot be used as grounds to say that he was intending to write to all believers through his letter to the saints at Corinth. One has only to read the letter to see how Corinth-specific it is. The letter is not a collection of broad generalities, axioms of spiritual living aimed at a wide audience, but a very personal and particular letter addressing attitudes, and behaviour, and thinking specific to the Corinthian believers (Read chapter 5 for a clear and obvious example).

Oldmantook said:
He compares "we" meaning he and the Corinthians with all the other churches of God. This verse clearly indicates that his letter to the Corinthians is not only directed at their practices but also to the church universal.

1 Corinthians 11:15-17
15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.
17 But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.

Like Paul's salutation, this passage does not give you grounds for what you're asserting about Paul's intended audience of his letter. Making the aside, "Nor have the churches of God," only points to a standard outside or beyond the practices of the Corinthian believers but Paul is not, in making the aside, suggesting that his comments to the Corinthians are intended for all believers everywhere and at all times. This is an eisegetical contortion of Paul's words. If I said to the congregation of my church, "I prefer hymnals with a red cover, as do many others in various churches in the city," I would not, by making the aside about the hymnal cover preferences of people in other churches, intend to address all other churches everywhere in Christendom on the matter of hymnal covers.

Oldmantook said:
Here he makes no mention of other churches but would you go so far to say that his instructions about the Lord's supper to the Corinthians do not apply to us today?

Of course not. But not all of what Paul had to say to the Corinthians on this head applies to every believer in every church throughout all time.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22
20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Are all churches in every time carrying on as the Corinthians were when taking Communion? No.
In the churches I've been a member of over the years, I have never seen anyone attend Communion drunk, nor have I seen anyone making a meal of the Communion elements. None of the churches I've attended were like the Corinthian church in this matter. What, then, of thinking Paul intended his letter to the Corinthians to serve as a general missive to all churches? It doesn't work. Not all churches were like the Corinthian church; Paul's words to the Corinthians are too Corinthian-specific to warrant thinking he intended a wider audience to his letter to them.

Paul's letters, like most letters, are a mixture of specific and general comments and information. Some of what Paul wrote may apply beyond the context of the Corinthian church but some of it won't (except, of course, if a church begins to behave like the Corinthians did). In chapter 14 of Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, most of what Paul writes is Corinth-specific; he is addressing very particular practices and attitudes present in the Corinthian church. Are we obliged to think the general character of the meetings of the Corinthian church ought to be the pattern for all churches? Does Paul ever say that? No. Does he ever say that his commands to the Corinthians concerning their conduct during gatherings is a mandate he intends for all churches in all times? No. If a church is engaging in the sorts of things the Corinthians were, Paul's restrictions apply. And if a church is not, if it is not carrying on in the manner of the church at Corinth, Paul does not ever say that it should. It is committing the Is-Ought Fallacy to think that what is described of the Corinthian church gatherings in Paul's letter is a prescription for all churches in all times.

Oldmantook said:
Based on these factors which to me indicate that he wrote to a wider audience, I find your view to be untenable.

See above.

aiki · Apr 16, 2018

John tower said:
Problem with people like this , they make all kinds of statements with no specific scriptural backing whatsoever : They just make it up as they go along : Such as stating Paul’s statements here were just for the Corinthians : What scripture there said these statements were only for the Corinthians ? : Answer : No scripture said that : So If you don’t have specific scripture that specifically says that you cannot teach it ! ! But that doesn’t stop these people : They just go right on making it up : 1 Cor 4(6)! !

The pot calling the kettle black, here. I take Paul at his word(s). What you and OldmanTook seem to want to do is impose meaning on his words (aka - eisegesis). I say no more than Paul does. You however, are wanting to make a description of the Corinthian church in chapter 14 a prescription for all churches. There is no clear warrant from the chapter itself for doing so, however. Paul never says that what was going on in the Corinthian church ought to be standard practice for all churches in all times. You are imposing that idea on what he wrote rather than confining his meaning to his actual words.

By the way, it would make reading your posts much easier if you would use proper punctuation and paragraph structure. In particular, you are misusing the full colon atrociously. The full colon does not serve the same purpose as a period.

sunlover1 · Apr 16, 2018

Blade said:
Ok.. lets speak truth shall we Now in the US there are what over 300,000 Churches. You said "how MOST Churches"..

Please share how you know this. Seen been to talked to MOST of them have you? No..so forgive me.. but to say MOST is NOT true.. and if its NOT true then what is it? Then there are 365 days in a year...how in the world would one know what they do each Sun/Sat let alone every day.

One thing we need to remember to know is our Father? Has never will never FAIL! What HE has started HE WILL finish. He CANT lie.. that BRIDE in HIS eyes is SPOTLESS which came..is through the lamb of God. We still can only see FLESH.. He does not. THINK about that.. HE does not look at the FLESH.. the FLESH has not been changed YET.

So yes there are some I am sure that stop the sweet sweet Holy Spirit.. yet.. I personally believe so many are blind.. and as Christ said.. if you were blind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains. I think some do it blindly ...

So.. how many of US does it take to PRAY for believe for MOST (your words) Churches? Lets pray TOGETHER agree as touching anything.. agreeing together and the FATHER will hear and AC! Thats why this is posted I pray. For us to PRAY for them AMEN~

thecolorsblend · Apr 16, 2018

timewerx said:
There are many people that would probably just skip your post because it's difficult to read.... Some who had long hard day at work, probably won't bother to read a difficult text like yours.

Can confirm.

thecolorsblend · Apr 16, 2018

John tower said:
Bible says to appoint elders plural in every church never one dictator !

Wouldn't that have complicated the Council of Jerusalem though?

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Wouldn't that have complicated the Council of Jerusalem though?

Probably .

thecolorsblend · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
Probably .

That would’ve been very bad, yes? The Church really needs that Council, doesn’t she?

Steve Petersen · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
( 3 ) : ” WHAT’S WRONG WITH CHURCHES TODAY ? “
August 4, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment

1 THESSALONIANS 5(19) : ” Quench not the spirit .” : What exactly does this mean , and just exactly what do we have to do to quench the spirit ? 1 CORINTHIANS 14(26) : ” Brethren when you come together EVERY ONE OF YOU hath a psalm , hath a doctrine , hath a revelation , etc , let all things be done unto edifying .” This passage is talking about when the church comes together , and it says that EVERY ONE IS SUPPOSED TO SPEAK for the mutual edification of all in the church ! 1 CORINTHIANS 14(31) : ” Ye may ALL prophesy , one by one , that ALL may learn , as the spirit of God gives revelation to EACH PERSON for the edification of all in the church !” But virtually all churches today do not follow this biblical principle but QUENCH THE MOVING OF GOD’S SPIRIT BY LIMITING SPEAKING TO ONE PERSON ONLY CALLED THE PASTOR contrary to the scriptures we have just read ! This does not allow for the free moving of God’s spirit to use whomsoever he will to speak through , but renders virtually all in the church to be silent pew warmers, only allowed to listen , but not allowed TO ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE WHOLE CHURCH BODY AS A HEALTHY CHURCH IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE ! 1 CORINTHIANS 12(7) : ” But the manifestation of the spirit is given TO EVERY MAN to profit withal .” : Not just given to the pastor , but THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO ” EVERY MAN ” TO PROFIT ALL ! 1 CORINTHIANS 12(11) : ” These worketh that one and the selfsame spirit dividing to ” EVERY MAN ” severally as he will.” : Not just the pastor , but ” EVERY MAN ” 1 CORINTHIANS 12(14) : ” For the body is NOT ONE MEMBER BUT MANY .” : Not just the pastor but MANY ! 1 CORINTHIANS 12(21) : ” The eye cannot say unto the hand I have no need of thee , nor again the head unto the feet , : Not just the pastor is needed , but ALL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH ARE NEEDED ! The following verses show exactly how a true church of god should be operating : 1 CORINTHIANS 14(29-32) : 29 : ” Let the prophets speak , two or three , and let the others judge ” 30 : ” If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by , let the first hold his peace .” 31 : ” For ye may ALL PROPHESY , one by one , that all may learn , and all may be comforted . : 32 : ” The spirits of the prophets are SUBJECT TO THE PROPHETS . ” So the members of the church may ” ALL ” speak, one by one in an orderly fashion , and they are subject to the other members , NOT THE PASTOR ! So this is exactly how the Bible says a church meeting should function , and I know of no church of man that functions like this , but they all quench the spirit from moving through all the members of the church by limiting speaking to one man ! CHURCHES IN THIS STATE HAVE NO REAL MOVING OF GOD’S SPIRIT BUT ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD ! SADLY MOST OF THE MAIN STREAM CHURCHES ARE EXACTLY IN THIS STATE ! THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE MAIN STREAM CHURCHES TODAY ! THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM IS TO FOLLOW GOD’S WORD AND LET THE BROTHERS SPEAK AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE CHURCH BODY AND NEVER AGAIN QUENCH GOD’S SPIRIT BY LIMITING SPEAKING TO ANY ONE MAN !

By 'quenching God's spirit' you mean 'not Pentecostal.'

No loss, IMO.

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
By 'quenching God's spirit' you mean 'not Pentecostal.'

No loss, IMO.

Tongues in Acts 2 were real understandable foreign languages : what passes for tongues in most churches today is mindless gibberish !

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

aiki said:
No, as I explained in earlier posts, it is the text of Scripture itself that establishes what is broadly applicable and what is not.

Again, you are not understanding Paul's salutation correctly. Here it is in full:

1 Corinthians 1:2-3
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verse 2, Paul describes the Corinthian believers: "sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." He then, using the word "with," joins them in this description to all who have called upon the name of Christ. In doing so, Paul is not saying that everything in his letter is to all saints, only that the Corinthian Christians are part of a broader community of people who have also called upon the name of the Lord.

Paul's letter to the Corinthians contains much that may be applied to all believers but his salutation cannot be used as grounds to say that he was intending to write to all believers through his letter to the saints at Corinth. One has only to read the letter to see how Corinth-specific it is. The letter is not a collection of broad generalities, axioms of spiritual living aimed at a wide audience, but a very personal and particular letter addressing attitudes, and behaviour, and thinking specific to the Corinthian believers (Read chapter 5 for a clear and obvious example).

1 Corinthians 11:15-17
15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.
17 But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.

Like Paul's salutation, this passage does not give you grounds for what you're asserting about Paul's intended audience of his letter. Making the aside, "Nor have the churches of God," only points to a standard outside or beyond the practices of the Corinthians believers but Paul is not, in making the aside, suggesting that his comments to the Corinthians are intended for all believers everywhere and at all times. This is an eisegetical contortion of Paul's words. If I said to the congregation of my church, "I prefer hymnals with a red cover, as do many others in various churches in the city," I would not, by making the aside about the hymnal cover preferences of people in other churches, intend to address all other churches everywhere in Christendom on the matter of hymnal covers.

Of course not. But not all of what Paul had to say to the Corinthians on this head applies to every believer in every church throughout all time.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22
20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Are all churches in every time carrying on as the Corinthians were when taking Communion? No.
In the churches I've been a member of over the years, I have never seen anyone attend Communion drunk, nor have I seen anyone making a meal of the Communion elements. None of the churches I've attended were like the Corinthian church in this matter. What, then, of thinking Paul intended his letter to the Corinthians to serve as a general missive to all churches? It doesn't work. Not all churches were like the Corinthian church; Paul's words to the Corinthians are too Corinthian-specific to warrant thinking he intended a wider audience to his letter to them.

Paul's letters, like most letters, are a mixture of specific and general comments and information. Some of what Paul wrote may apply beyond the context of the Corinthian church but some of it won't (except, of course, if a church begins to behave like the Corinthians did). In chapter 14 of Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, most of what Paul writes is Corinth-specific; he is addressing very particular practices and attitudes present in the Corinthian church. Are we obliged to think the general character of the meetings of the Corinthian church ought to be the pattern for all churches? Does Paul ever say that? No. Does he ever say that his commands to the Corinthians concerning their conduct during gatherings is a mandate he intends for all churches in all times? No. If a church is engaging in the sorts of things the Corinthians were, Paul's restrictions apply. And if a church is not, if it is not carrying on in the manner of the church at Corinth, Paul does not ever say that it should. It is committing the Is-Ought Fallacy to think that what is described of the Corinthian church gatherings in Paul's letter is a prescription for all churches in all times.

See above.

Hey Aiki , Go Jets , I lived in Fort Rouge : Where do you live ? Too bad I have to disagree with you here : What part of what Paul said , where he said :: The things that I write are for all ! What part of “ For all “ Do you not understand ?

FIRESTORM314 · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
Tongues in Acts 2 were real understandable foreign languages : what passes for tongues in most churches today is mindless gibberish !

I get the impression that is what happened in Acts 2. The different language they spoke were languages of other nations without them actually having to have learned those languages while they were speaking them. "In a way" it was the Spirit confirming the gospel would be preached to all nations.
The mixed local population recognised their own different languages being spoken by the believers.

On the subject of the Holy Spirit - do you think the Spiritual gifts are still in existence?

aiki · Apr 17, 2018

John tower said:
Hey Aiki , Go Jets , I lived in Fort Rouge : Where do you live ?

Not a sports fan, I'm afraid.

I live in Winnipeg.

John tower said:
Too bad I have to disagree with you here :

Uh huh. You aren't the first. You won't be the last.

John tower said:
What part of what Paul said , where he said :: The things that I write are for all ! What part of “ For all “ Do you not understand ?

Can you quote the verse you're thinking of?

John tower · Apr 17, 2018

FIRESTORM314 said:
I get the impression that is what happened in Acts 2. The different language they spoke were languages of other nations without them actually having to have learned those languages while they were speaking them. "In a way" it was the Spirit confirming the gospel would be preached to all nations.
The mixed local population recognised their own different languages being spoken by the believers.

On the subject of the Holy Spirit - do you think the Spiritual gifts are still in existence?

Of course :Though I believe the majority of tongues in churches are fraudulent!

Oldmantook · Apr 18, 2018

aiki said:
In verse 2, Paul describes the Corinthian believers: "sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." He then, using the word "with," joins them in this description to all who have called upon the name of Christ. In doing so, Paul is not saying that everything in his letter is to all saints, only that the Corinthian Christians are part of a broader community of people who have also called upon the name of the Lord.

Okay - I see your point now and I cannot disagree with it so I agree with you that the salutation itself does not include a wider audience.

aiki said:
Like Paul's salutation, this passage does not give you grounds for what you're asserting about Paul's intended audience of his letter. Making the aside, "Nor have the churches of God," only points to a standard outside or beyond the practices of the Corinthians believers but Paul is not, in making the aside, suggesting that his comments to the Corinthians are intended for all believers everywhere and at all times. This is an eisegetical contortion of Paul's words. If I said to the congregation of my church, "I prefer hymnals with a red cover, as do many others in various churches in the city," I would not, by making the aside about the hymnal cover preferences of people in other churches, intend to address all other churches everywhere in Christendom on the matter of hymnal covers.

I disagree with your interpretation of Paul's intent as Paul, unlike your analogy is stating the "practice" of the church(es); not his "preference." He stated that if anyone is contentious, and disagrees with him, we have no such practice nor do the churches of God. There is a wide latitude in terms of individual preference but Paul is not referring to preference; rather he cites the standard practice of the churches which connotes uniformity.

aiki said:
Of course not. But not all of what Paul had to say to the Corinthians on this head applies to every believer in every church throughout all time.

Yes not all, but in the case of instructions regarding the Lord's Supper would you say it applies to all churches throughout all time? Yes or No?

aiki said:
Are all churches in every time carrying on as the Corinthians were when taking Communion? No.
In the churches I've been a member of over the years, I have never seen anyone attend Communion drunk, nor have I seen anyone making a meal of the Communion elements. None of the churches I've attended were like the Corinthian church in this matter. What, then, of thinking Paul intended his letter to the Corinthians to serve as a general missive to all churches? It doesn't work. Not all churches were like the Corinthian church; Paul's words to the Corinthians are too Corinthian-specific to warrant thinking he intended a wider audience to his letter to them.

Paul's letters, like most letters, are a mixture of specific and general comments and information. Some of what Paul wrote may apply beyond the context of the Corinthian church but some of it won't (except, of course, if a church begins to behave like the Corinthians did). In chapter 14 of Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, most of what Paul writes is Corinth-specific; he is addressing very particular practices and attitudes present in the Corinthian church. Are we obliged to think the general character of the meetings of the Corinthian church ought to be the pattern for all churches? Does Paul ever say that? No. Does he ever say that his commands to the Corinthians concerning their conduct during gatherings is a mandate he intends for all churches in all times? No. If a church is engaging in the sorts of things the Corinthians were, Paul's restrictions apply. And if a church is not, if it is not carrying on in the manner of the church at Corinth, Paul does not ever say that it should. It is committing the Is-Ought Fallacy to think that what is described of the Corinthian church gatherings in Paul's letter is a prescription for all churches in all times.

Your personal experience only qualifies as anecdotal evidence which I don't think you (nor I) claim to be the measure of judgment concerning the how scripture is to be interpreted. My experience is different from yours as I have been a part of congregations where communion is actually a meal, yet I don't posit that because of my experience, I interpret the scriptures accordingly. The scriptures speak for themselves and determine our practice; not the other way around. A germane question would be since the NT always describes the Lord's Supper as a meal and not a "snack" of a tiny piece of bread and grape juice/wine do churches today have the latitude to substitute a snack for a meal? That is probably another discussion altogether but it begs the question of whether all churches should make communion a meal instead of what is has morphed into today. Form follows function.
Quote from Steve Atkerson:
"In summary, the Lord’s Supper is the primary purpose for which the church is to gather each Lord’s Day. Eaten as a full meal, the Supper typifies the wedding supper of the Lamb and is thus forward looking. It is to be partaken of as a feast, in a joyful, wedding atmosphere rather than in a somber, funeral atmosphere. A major benefit of the Supper as a banquet is the fellowship and encouragement each member experiences. Within the context of this full meal, there is to be one cup and one loaf from which all partake. One whole loaf is to be used, not only to symbolize the unity of a body of believers, but also because God will use it to create unity within a body of believers."
Therefore the question is, has our modern practice violated apostolic tradition? I say yes and I assume you say no.

Same thing with chapter 14 as you assert that it is Corinth-specific whereas I say it is to be a general pattern to follow. Your argument that Paul never mentions his instructions to the Corinth church as also applicable for all churches is to argue from silence which is never a strong argument to begin with. I on the other hand, could argue that a church can never go wrong by following Paul's instructions in chapt. 14 since his stated intent is to created decency and order in the church (v.40) and edification (v.26). Thus assuming if a church takes Paul's instructions as prescriptive, then the result should be a strengthened body of believers relating to one another and with God with decency and order. Hard to go wrong with that in my opinion.

aiki · Apr 18, 2018

Oldmantook said:
I disagree with your interpretation of Paul's intent as Paul, unlike your analogy is stating the "practice" of the church(es); not his "preference."

You've missed my point. It was about the rhetorical nature of Paul's aside. The aside did not, by itself, serve as a way of addressing all other churches in all other times. It was Paul's way of pointing out to the Corinthians that if anyone among them disagreed with his teaching on female head coverings, that person did so against both Paul's teaching and the common custom (though not rule) of other (he does not say all) churches. Paul was simply strengthening his argument to the Corinthians by this aside; he was not indicating that he was now addressing all other churches in perpetuity.

I'm not suggesting that we ought to entirely ignore Paul's words as applying only to the Corinthians, however. I only want to be careful to distinguish when Paul's words are universal in their application and when they are not. This begins, I think, by being careful to note who he is addressing, and how he is addressing them, and why. When one neglects to do this, the result can be the sort of thinking and assertions found in the OP of this thread.

Oldmantook said:
Your personal experience only qualifies as anecdotal evidence which I don't think you (nor I) claim to be the measure of judgment concerning the how scripture is to be interpreted.

You misunderstand me. I was not speaking to interpretation but to application.

Oldmantook said:
The scriptures speak for themselves and determine our practice; not the other way around.

I agree and have not actually suggested otherwise.

Oldmantook said:
Same thing with chapter 14 as you assert that it is Corinth-specific whereas I say it is to be a general pattern to follow.

What is a general pattern to follow? Paul's advice to the Corinthians or the general nature of the Corinthian gatherings? Ought all churches to be prophesying, and speaking in tongues, and carrying on as the Corinthians were but with the order Paul commanded? I don't see that in the chapter. But this is what the OP was affirming: all churches ought to be prophesying and speaking in tongues and those that aren't have quenched the Spirit. But this is to make a description into a prescription. No where in all of the chapter are we ever told that all churches ought to do just as the Corinthian church was doing regarding prophesying and tongues. We are certainly not told that to fail to do so is to quench the Spirit.

Oldmantook said:
I on the other hand, could argue that a church can never go wrong by following Paul's instructions in chapt. 14

Hear, hear! My main concern was never regarding Paul's instructions, but the OP's assertion that the prophesying and tongues going on in the Corinthian church was prescriptive for all churches in all times.

John tower · Apr 18, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Okay - I see your point now and I cannot disagree with it so I agree with you that the salutation itself does not include a wider audience.

I disagree with your interpretation of Paul's intent as Paul, unlike your analogy is stating the "practice" of the church(es); not his "preference." He stated that if anyone is contentious, and disagrees with him, we have no such practice nor do the churches of God. There is a wide latitude in terms of individual preference but Paul is not referring to preference; rather he cites the standard practice of the churches which connotes uniformity.

Yes not all, but in the case of instructions regarding the Lord's Supper would you say it applies to all churches throughout all time? Yes or No?

Your personal experience only qualifies as anecdotal evidence which I don't think you (nor I) claim to be the measure of judgment concerning the how scripture is to be interpreted. My experience is different from yours as I have been a part of congregations where communion is actually a meal, yet I don't posit that because of my experience, I interpret the scriptures accordingly. The scriptures speak for themselves and determine our practice; not the other way around. A germane question would be since the NT always describes the Lord's Supper as a meal and not a "snack" of a tiny piece of bread and grape juice/wine do churches today have the latitude to substitute a snack for a meal? That is probably another discussion altogether but it begs the question of whether all churches should make communion a meal instead of what is has morphed into today. Form follows function.
Quote from Steve Atkerson:
"In summary, the Lord’s Supper is the primary purpose for which the church is to gather each Lord’s Day. Eaten as a full meal, the Supper typifies the wedding supper of the Lamb and is thus forward looking. It is to be partaken of as a feast, in a joyful, wedding atmosphere rather than in a somber, funeral atmosphere. A major benefit of the Supper as a banquet is the fellowship and encouragement each member experiences. Within the context of this full meal, there is to be one cup and one loaf from which all partake. One whole loaf is to be used, not only to symbolize the unity of a body of believers, but also because God will use it to create unity within a body of believers."
Therefore the question is, has our modern practice violated apostolic tradition? I say yes and I assume you say no.

Same thing with chapter 14 as you assert that it is Corinth-specific whereas I say it is to be a general pattern to follow. Your argument that Paul never mentions his instructions to the Corinth church as also applicable for all churches is to argue from silence which is never a strong argument to begin with. I on the other hand, could argue that a church can never go wrong by following Paul's instructions in chapt. 14 since his stated intent is to created decency and order in the church (v.40) and edification (v.26). Thus assuming if a church takes Paul's instructions as prescriptive, then the result should be a strengthened body of believers relating to one another and with God with decency and order. Hard to go wrong with that in my opinion.

You are not making any sense Aiki : If something is true , it is true everywhere : and as such is applicable to everyone , everywhere and any time : this is ridiculous trying to say it would only apply to the Corinthians !

John tower · Apr 18, 2018

John tower said:
( 3 ) : ” WHAT’S WRONG WITH CHURCHES TODAY ? “
August 4, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment

1 THESSALONIANS 5(19) : ” Quench not the spirit .” : What exactly does this mean , and just exactly what do we have to do to quench the spirit ? 1 CORINTHIANS 14(26) : ” Brethren when you come together EVERY ONE OF YOU hath a psalm , hath a doctrine , hath a revelation , etc , let all things be done unto edifying .” This passage is talking about when the church comes together , and it says that EVERY ONE IS SUPPOSED TO SPEAK for the mutual edification of all in the church ! 1 CORINTHIANS 14(31) : ” Ye may ALL prophesy , one by one , that ALL may learn , as the spirit of God gives revelation to EACH PERSON for the edification of all in the church !” But virtually all churches today do not follow this biblical principle but QUENCH THE MOVING OF GOD’S SPIRIT BY LIMITING SPEAKING TO ONE PERSON ONLY CALLED THE PASTOR contrary to the scriptures we have just read ! This does not allow for the free moving of God’s spirit to use whomsoever he will to speak through , but renders virtually all in the church to be silent pew warmers, only allowed to listen , but not allowed TO ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE WHOLE CHURCH BODY AS A HEALTHY CHURCH IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE ! 1 CORINTHIANS 12(7) : ” But the manifestation of the spirit is given TO EVERY MAN to profit withal .” : Not just given to the pastor , but THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO ” EVERY MAN ” TO PROFIT ALL ! 1 CORINTHIANS 12(11) : ” These worketh that one and the selfsame spirit dividing to ” EVERY MAN ” severally as he will.” : Not just the pastor , but ” EVERY MAN ” 1 CORINTHIANS 12(14) : ” For the body is NOT ONE MEMBER BUT MANY .” : Not just the pastor but MANY ! 1 CORINTHIANS 12(21) : ” The eye cannot say unto the hand I have no need of thee , nor again the head unto the feet , : Not just the pastor is needed , but ALL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH ARE NEEDED ! The following verses show exactly how a true church of god should be operating : 1 CORINTHIANS 14(29-32) : 29 : ” Let the prophets speak , two or three , and let the others judge ” 30 : ” If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by , let the first hold his peace .” 31 : ” For ye may ALL PROPHESY , one by one , that all may learn , and all may be comforted . : 32 : ” The spirits of the prophets are SUBJECT TO THE PROPHETS . ” So the members of the church may ” ALL ” speak, one by one in an orderly fashion , and they are subject to the other members , NOT THE PASTOR ! So this is exactly how the Bible says a church meeting should function , and I know of no church of man that functions like this , but they all quench the spirit from moving through all the members of the church by limiting speaking to one man ! CHURCHES IN THIS STATE HAVE NO REAL MOVING OF GOD’S SPIRIT BUT ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD ! SADLY MOST OF THE MAIN STREAM CHURCHES ARE EXACTLY IN THIS STATE ! THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE MAIN STREAM CHURCHES TODAY ! THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM IS TO FOLLOW GOD’S WORD AND LET THE BROTHERS SPEAK AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE CHURCH BODY AND NEVER AGAIN QUENCH GOD’S SPIRIT BY LIMITING SPEAKING TO ANY ONE MAN !

For Aiki : If something is true , it’s true everywhere , and as such is applicable to everyone , everywhere , and any time : so to try and say certain truths are only applicable to the Corinthians is totally ridiculous and plain just not true !

LoveofTruth · Apr 18, 2018

aiki said:
It was Paul's way of pointing out to the Corinthians...Paul's advice to the Corinthians....

This is your main error here. What Paul wrote was not “his way” or “Paul’s advice”

What Paul wrote was the commandments of the Lord.

As scripture clearly shows

1 Corinthians 14 - 37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

And he said in another place

1 Thessalonians 2 - 13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”

LoveofTruth · Apr 18, 2018

aiki said:
It was Paul's way of pointing out to the Corinthians...Paul's advice to the Corinthians....

This is your main error here. What Paul wrote was not “his way” or “Paul’s advice”

1 Thessalonians 2 - 13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”

Oldmantook · Apr 18, 2018

aiki said:
You've missed my point. It was about the rhetorical nature of Paul's aside. The aside did not, by itself, serve as a way of addressing all other churches in all other times. It was Paul's way of pointing out to the Corinthians that if anyone among them disagreed with his teaching on female head coverings, that person did so against both Paul's teaching and the common custom (though not rule) of other (he does not say all) churches. Paul was simply strengthening his argument to the Corinthians by this aside; he was not indicating that he was now addressing all other churches in perpetuity.

I'm not suggesting that we ought to entirely ignore Paul's words as applying only to the Corinthians, however. I only want to be careful to distinguish when Paul's words are universal in their application and when they are not. This begins, I think, by being careful to note who he is addressing, and how he is addressing them, and why. When one neglects to do this, the result can be the sort of thinking and assertions found in the OP of this thread.

You misunderstand me. I was not speaking to interpretation but to application.

I agree and have not actually suggested otherwise.

What is a general pattern to follow? Paul's advice to the Corinthians or the general nature of the Corinthian gatherings? Ought all churches to be prophesying, and speaking in tongues, and carrying on as the Corinthians were but with the order Paul commanded? I don't see that in the chapter. But this is what the OP was affirming: all churches ought to be prophesying and speaking in tongues and those that aren't have quenched the Spirit. But this is to make a description into a prescription. No where in all of the chapter are we ever told that all churches ought to do just as the Corinthian church was doing regarding prophesying and tongues. We are certainly not told that to fail to do so is to quench the Spirit.

Hear, hear! My main concern was never regarding Paul's instructions, but the OP's assertion that the prophesying and tongues going on in the Corinthian church was prescriptive for all churches in all times.

I think at this point we understand where each other is coming from and we can agree to disagree on an amicable basis - which I appreciate. We disagree on which points in 1 Corinthians are merely descriptive and not prescriptive. You base part of your argument on silence which I don't think is a strong basis for interpretation but that's okay as we disagree on how we apply this hermeneutic.

Is there a difference between custom and practice? Custom infers a particular practice associated with a culture specific to time and place. Practice could be interpreted as a standard universally prescribed standard irrespective of time and place. It depends on how one translates synētheian in 1 Cor 11:16.

In an attempt to find common ground perhaps we can agree that today's church needs to get more of the sheep involved. 1 Cor 14:26 Paul states that when we come together as a body, everyone or each one has something to contribute to the rest of the body for edification. The goal is 100% participation; not spectator church as we have today where the maxim is that "20% in the church do 100% of the work/ministry."

Oldmantook · Apr 18, 2018

aiki said:
You've missed my point. It was about the rhetorical nature of Paul's aside. The aside did not, by itself, serve as a way of addressing all other churches in all other times. It was Paul's way of pointing out to the Corinthians that if anyone among them disagreed with his teaching on female head coverings, that person did so against both Paul's teaching and the common custom (though not rule) of other (he does not say all) churches. Paul was simply strengthening his argument to the Corinthians by this aside; he was not indicating that he was now addressing all other churches in perpetuity.

I'm not suggesting that we ought to entirely ignore Paul's words as applying only to the Corinthians, however. I only want to be careful to distinguish when Paul's words are universal in their application and when they are not. This begins, I think, by being careful to note who he is addressing, and how he is addressing them, and why. When one neglects to do this, the result can be the sort of thinking and assertions found in the OP of this thread.

You misunderstand me. I was not speaking to interpretation but to application.

I agree and have not actually suggested otherwise.

What is a general pattern to follow? Paul's advice to the Corinthians or the general nature of the Corinthian gatherings? Ought all churches to be prophesying, and speaking in tongues, and carrying on as the Corinthians were but with the order Paul commanded? I don't see that in the chapter. But this is what the OP was affirming: all churches ought to be prophesying and speaking in tongues and those that aren't have quenched the Spirit. But this is to make a description into a prescription. No where in all of the chapter are we ever told that all churches ought to do just as the Corinthian church was doing regarding prophesying and tongues. We are certainly not told that to fail to do so is to quench the Spirit.

Hear, hear! My main concern was never regarding Paul's instructions, but the OP's assertion that the prophesying and tongues going on in the Corinthian church was prescriptive for all churches in all times.

I think at this point we understand where each other is coming from and we can agree to disagree on an amicable basis - which I appreciate. We disagree on which points in 1 Corinthians are merely descriptive and not prescriptive. You base part of your argument on silence which I don't think is a strong basis for interpretation but that's okay as we disagree on how we apply this hermeneutic.

Is there a difference between custom and practice? Custom infers a particular practice associated with a culture specific to time and place. Practice could be interpreted as a standard universally prescribed standard irrespective of time and place. It depends on how one translates synētheian in 1 Cor 11:16.

In an attempt to find common ground perhaps we can agree that today's church needs to get more of the sheep involved. 1 Cor 14:26 Paul states that when we come together as a body, everyone or each one has something to contribute to the rest of the body for edification. The goal is 100% participation; not spectator church as we have today where the maxim is that "20% in the church do 100% of the work/ministry."

How most churches today totally quench God’s Spirit !

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