Seventy Times Seven?

Mskriskris said:

I noticed throughout the Word, ending with Jesus, the seventy times seven phrase being used. I know numbers are significant in the Word, but often times when preached, the person just explain as to forgive someone loads of times. But what if its something even deeper than that? I know Daniel had his prophecy of the seventy-seven weeks, and I'm wondering if what Jesus was talking about was more to refer to that prophecy? That Jesus really meant to forgive until the end of times? What if all the times its was mentioned in the Word, it was to connect to Daniel's prophecy, even inadvertently as it was with Lamech (Genesis 4:24)?

I just wonder if anyone ever has, or do have thoughts about this? It's really interesting...

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Some ppl might say it means 490, period.

I do think that a sense of recurring willingness to forgive is also in view, and I think various commentators would also say this.

Forgiving one person 490x times might as well be till the end of time.
I think you would lose count after the first 100 or so.

Mskriskris said:

I just wonder if anyone ever has, or do have thoughts about this? It's really interesting...

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It's just a way of saying 'without limit.'

Doug Melven said:

Forgiving one person 490x times might as well be till the end of time.
I think you would lose count after the first 100 or so.

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No, it might mean 490 days where every day we forgive them. God doesnt give time forever for mankind to repent

R. Hartono said:

No, it might mean 490 days where every day we forgive them. God doesnt give time forever for us to repent

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As long as you are breathing, God will forgive.
Look at King Manasseh, even he was able to be forgiven.

Could it have something to do with the Jubilee?
49 years then debts are cleared in the 50th, right?
so 10 jubilees XD
That's one guess

Other guess: because 7 is number for complete and 77 doubly complete?

There are many layers of meaning to the number given. The first and obvious interpretation is what Albion said, "without limit." Going a little deeper, and interpreting the number seven to mean the present life - time is measured in seven day weeks, - Peter is asking the Lord if he should forgive someone all the days of this life and the Lord says not only this, but in the future age as well, the time denoted by seventy times seven. This interpretation is a paraphrase of the apostolic gift "whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Notice also that it doesn't contradict, but rather elaborates the first interpretation. Now unto the next layer. We know Cain's sin was punishable seven-fold, while Lamech's seventy times seven. So Peter's question can also be interpreted as asking up to what gravity of sin to forgive, those equal to Cain's? And of course the Lord's answer is no, but as serious as those of Lamech's. In these two 'types' of sins, Cain's and Lamech's, all punishable sin is portrayed, that of consent and that of willful action. And by that last statement we have opened the door to the allegorical sense of the passage.


The above interpretations are based on texts from St. John Chrysostom and St. Maximos the Confessor.

Mskriskris said:

seventy times seven

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I wonder if they even knew of multiplication back then. Seems this is a pretty advanced mathematical concept and why would you ever use it in everyday life.

Mskriskris said:

I noticed throughout the Word, ending with Jesus, the seventy times seven phrase being used. I know numbers are significant in the Word, but often times when preached, the person just explain as to forgive someone loads of times. But what if its something even deeper than that? I know Daniel had his prophecy of the seventy-seven weeks, and I'm wondering if what Jesus was talking about was more to refer to that prophecy? That Jesus really meant to forgive until the end of times? What if all the times its was mentioned in the Word, it was to connect to Daniel's prophecy, even inadvertently as it was with Lamech (Genesis 4:24)?

I just wonder if anyone ever has, or do have thoughts about this? It's really interesting...

Click to expand...

I think it's interesting that the sin of Lamech is signified by exponential increase and Jesus uses the same symbol to signify forgiveness.

When reading Matthew 18:21-22, Peter comes asking Jesus how many times he should forgive; he thought seven times but Jesus said seventy times seven. Then following this the parable of the King forgiving his servant for his humility needing and asking (Matthew 18:26-27); but the servant wasn't as forgiving as his King to fellow servants when it came time to collect what was owed (Matthew 18:28-30).

The difference is while the King was merciful to the servant who couldn't pay his debt, having compassion for him; the servant was less so as a hypocrite who judged his fellow servant and condemned him, having vengeance and took it into his own hands (opposite of Matthew 18:31). That's when the King stopped having compassion and didn't forgive, no mercy for the servant; as it was done to his fellow servant, it was to him (Matthew 18:32-34, Matthew 18:35).

Also here's an interesting site I found of Genesis 4, The Untold Story of Cain and Abel; according to the author Cain was remorseful, and God was merciful but also warned others not to take vengeance themselves:

Cain is distressed by this punishment and says to God, according to the translations;

My punishment is greater than I can bear (RSV, Genesis 4:13).

This implies that there is no remorse in Cain and he is more worried about his punishment than the evil act he did to his brother. However, the Hebrew word translated as punishment is avon, which means "iniquity" or "guilt." With this understanding, he is actually saying, "My guilt is greater than I can bear." With this translation we see great remorse. Cain then continues to say,

Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me. (RSV, Genesis 4:14)

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It is often taught that the Old Testament taught Law and the NT taught Grace. However we find throughout the Old Testament instances where God shows Grace. The story of Noah, the exodus of the Israelites and many others are stories of grace and this story is no different as God grants mercy, grace and hope to Cain.

Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him. (RSV, Genesis 4:15)

God evidently believed that Cain's murder did not deserve death, either by his or anyone else's hand and this may be a sign that there is more to this murder story than we are told. Don't forget that the conversation between Cain and Abel is not known for sure and it is also possible that there are elements of this story that have not been passed down to us.

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jesus316 said:

I wonder if they even knew of multiplication back then. Seems this is a pretty advanced mathematical concept and why would you ever use it in everyday life.

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Here's the 9 times table from ancient Babylonia, around 5000 years ago. Actually, the Babylonians could do better than that; they could solve quadratic equations.

nm