Against Sola Scriptura...

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mark kennedy

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Others interpret the Bible differently, as you know. How do we guard against erroneous interpretations?
The first order of business is to understand the text itself. I've spent a great deal of time going over Genesis 1 with a fine tooth comb and I'm certain the text of Scripture is ambiquise regarding original creation, and emphatic on the time and circumstances with regards to the creation of life on this planet.
 
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redleghunter

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They can tested, but who gives the answer; whose test results do we trust?
This actually gets into the theory of "How can we know anything." It's a deep philosophical position but its quite clear the inspired Holy Scriptures are not difficult to decipher.
 
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Steve Petersen

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This actually gets into the theory of "How can we know anything." It's a deep philosophical position but its quite clear the inspired Holy Scriptures are not difficult to decipher.

Except for how you deciphered that they are inspired and Holy. See if you can do that without using circular reasoning.
 
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redleghunter

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Ok? I'm not really sure what a teaching office might be good for then. Does the WCF allow that their teachings may well be as fallible as someone they disagree with?
Yes WCF calls for the teaching office and when there are disputes on matters of faith to follow the model of the early councils.

Acts 15 being a good example of the apostles discussing how the Holy Spirit led Peter, Paul and others to deliver the gospel to the Gentiles. Then having the traditional Jews demand the Gentiles follow Sinai laws. Then ending by James declaring from the OT prophets (Amos and Isaiah) that the inclusion of the Gentiles was prophesied by God and they were to be included in the church as brothers.

James declared the consensus tying the decision from the evidence of Gentile converts and anchoring such on Holy Writ from the prophets.
 
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redleghunter

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You may want to lower the bar but doing that will not convince anybody but those already committed to "sola scriptura". The rest, including myself, look on and see only a desperate attempt to make a tradition of men into divine revelation.
It's not lowering the bar. Your narrow inquiry leads one to question if we can knowing anything at all.

I may have missed it but what exactly do you find as authoritative to test truth claims?
 
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redleghunter

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Your post says "Scripture alone is where we find the rule of faith" but you need a definition of what is and what is not scripture. Within Christianity there are several lists of books that are to be included in scripture and the lists differ one from another. So show us the definition of scripture that is itself scriptural. If you cannot or if all you can muster is a vague reference to "psalms, law, and prophets" then you have already failed to deal with the first objection to the original posts definition; namely, that scripture does not teach that "The Bible alone is the Word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice." because to conform to that definition it is necessary first to establish what the "bible" is and second to establish that the "bible" alone is the word of God and is the only infallible rule of faith and practise. Failing at the first challenge is sufficient to show that the doctrine in the definition is not biblical. It is a tradition of men and nothing more.
Perhaps start with asking yourself "What does inspired Scriptures mean." It seems you are seeking this answer as every post I have seen from you never offers answers other than more questions.

Once you are confident in what it means to say "inspired Scriptures" then ask and then research the next question: "How do I know what I read are inspired."

This OP is based on Christians who already identify the OT and NT as inspired of God communicating to mankind. This is not a thread about the canon, or if the Bible is reliable.

And not to keep you out there trying to figure out what I'm getting at ask these questions in your search:

-Why did the Hebrews of Jesus's time deem the Law, Prophets and Writings as inspired Holy texts?

-Why did the apostles and early church quote so much from the Hebrew Holy texts? To where they exhorted, taught, reproved, corrected and established truth claims from them?

-Why did the early church do the same as the above with the Gospels and epistles of what was later called the NT?
 
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BobRyan

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My objections to sola scriptura are twofold:
1. The Bible simply doesn't teach it.

yes... it does teach that all doctrine and tradition is to be based on -- and -- judged by the scriptures.
2 Tim 3:16... Acts 17:11, 1 Cor 4:9, Isaiah 8:20



1 Cor 4:9
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

And as noted above --
Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"


Isiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light" is sola scriptura affirmed long before the NT.

hence Christ hammers the traditions of the magisterium of His day ... "sola scriptura" in Mark 7


Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
 
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BobRyan

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Who told you that Matt-Rev is the true canon... is the true canon named/stated in sacred scriptures?

Who told Catholics that the Apocrypha belongs in the Hebrew Canon?
 
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dreadnought

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That's not true, to live you life, direct your prays and establish doctrine according to the Scriptures is a time tested article of faith. Its a legacy from our Hebrew spiritual ancestors and a tradition in the Christian faith these two thousand years.
You, as I understand it, believe the Bible is infallible. Only the Lord is infallible.
 
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redleghunter

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What you have concluded is irrelevant. I stated no such thing.

I stated no such thing. My position is that Protestants have elements of the truth, but that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth.

Textual criticism is incapable of proving that Sacred Scripture is a pious forgery, because we do not possess the original manuscripts. And if we find the original manuscripts, then forgery is no longer a concern.
Your central point in that long post is in fact the following:

Textual criticism throws into question the reliability of the Bible to be used as a source of truth; by extension of this one cannot apply Sola Scriptura to ascertain truth.



Now I did not say you actually believe the above, but it is the argument you used.

The question I have is why even bring up an argument you don't even believe in other than to help the OP with potential views his paper should address? If this be the case, we should ping him.

@Tree of Life
 
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mark kennedy

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And so they put it on the same level as God.
You, as I understand it, believe the Bible is infallible. Only the Lord is infallible.
Then you don't understand me well at all, infallibility is not the same thing as immutable.

Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’ ? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? (John 10:34-36)
So what is the Lord saying there?
 
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Tayla

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The Bible alone is the Word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice.
Yes of course it is. A good definition. The Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God.

There is plenty of information on the internet about your question.
 
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redleghunter

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Mystical Life in Communion with God, by the Spirit of God. It cannot be communicated through words, or anything else, alone, because it is known only by direct experience of God in the Holy Spirit of God. The doctrines and other expressions of Orthodox faith merely point to it, because they flow out of it. Scripture points to it in a most powerful way, but it is not Scripture, it is Life in Communion with God. It is a Living thing: a Living, Holy, blessed experience of God that must be personally experienced to be truly known, as God must be personally experienced in order to be truly known.

"Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." This, according to Scripture, is made possible by the Holy Spirit Who graces us with such knowledge that the world does not have, but we do have.
I like what you wrote. If this was a thread in Romans 8 and walking in the Spirit and not the flesh, you would have a home run here.
 
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redleghunter

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It never fails, once the fallacy runs it's course the retorts become increasingly pedantic, doesn't seem to matter what the subject matter is. The Christian faith isn't a mystery religion that requires initiation into some enlightened state, unknowable to the uninitiated. There are two kinds of revelation, there is the natural revelation that all who come into the world are aware of, but men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness. There is the reflection of the divine attributes and eternal nature of God in the things that are made, and the witness of conscience:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Rom. 1:18-20)

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. (Romans 2:15)
That is the natural revelation, sometimes refereed to as the lesser light of revelation. Then there is special revelation, to those who have received the lesser light of revelation more light is given:

The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John 1:9-13)
We are not talking about an obscure text from a dead religion found in a cave. It is a living witness that has been in the custody of living witnesses their entire history, the Hebrew and Christian communities respectively. The fullest expression of faith is to enter into a covenant relationship with God through the righteousness of God in Christ. The Patriarchs knew God as, El Shaddai, or God Almighty. After the covenant was established as Sinai the ancient Hebrews knew him as Yahweh, the covenant name for God in the Old Testament:

God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but by My name, LORD (Yahweh), I did not make Myself known to them. "I also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned (Exodus 6:2-4)
With the New Testament we have the final revelation of God in Christ, as Jesus told Pontius Pilate, "Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (John 17:14-20)
God makes his revelation known to all who enter the world, to those who receive that revelation God give more light, to those who curse the light and flees to the darkness God withholds the truth of God in Christ:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. (Hebrews 1:1-2)
None of this requires secret knowledge or private interpretation. If you love the truth you will listen to the gospel. Do with the clear testimony of Scripture what you will, that is entirely your own responsibility:

“‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them. (Acts 28:27 Isaiah 6:9-10)
Grace and peace,
Mark
This...QFT.
 
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redleghunter

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Afra

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Your central point in that long post is in fact the following:

Textual criticism throws into question the reliability of the Bible to be used as a source of truth; by extension of this one cannot apply Sola Scriptura to ascertain truth.



Now I did not say you actually believe the above, but it is the argument you used.
No, that is not the argument that I used. The argument I used is what I wrote, and that is not what I wrote.

The question I have is why even bring up an argument you don't even believe in other than to help the OP with potential views his paper should address? If this be the case, we should ping him.

@Tree of Life
I did not bring up an argument that "I don't even believe". That is false.
 
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redleghunter

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You, as I understand it, believe the Bible is infallible. Only the Lord is infallible.
God's words and teachings are infallible. We find His infallible words and teachings in Holy Scriptures. It is why we call the Bible Holy Scriptures because only God is Holy, Holy, Holy.
 
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