The Bible is God

DZoolander said:

Of course you've seen it demonstrated in this thread.

It's not infallible, inerrant, necessary or sufficient, for exactly the reasons why the other individual said.

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THe words of Christ are not necessary?

Tree of Life said:

Whenever I argue in favor of a high view of Scripture, I inevitably am met by opponents with the assertion that: "The Bible is not God." They mean different things by this. Sometimes they mean that the Bible is not infallible. Sometimes they mean that the Bible is not the only way that God authoritatively speaks to us. Sometimes they mean that the Bible should not be worshipped or revered like we worship God. Whatever they mean, the purpose of their assertion is to diminish the worth and importance of the Bible.

I have no problem affirming that the Bible is God with a few qualifications. First, when I say "the Bible" I am not referring to any particular physical copy of the Bible - any scroll, tome, or book. God is not a book. I'm referring to the Word of God which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Second, I'm not saying that the words of Scripture can be identified with God in every way in a one-to-one sense. There are ways in which the words of Scripture are not God. For example, the words of Scripture are not eternal. They were created at a particular place and particular time by human authors.

So what do I mean? I mean that the Bible is the very speech of God and that his speech cannot be easily separated from his person.

Imagine your mother hands you the phone and says: "John, it's your dad. He wants to talk to you." It would be silly to say: "That's not my dad! That's just a phone! A piece of plastic! I want to talk to my dad!" The phone and John's dad are not identical in every way. But John's dad is on the phone. To interact with the phone is to interact with John's dad. John can hear and speak to his dad through the medium of the phone. The words of the phone are the very words of John's dad.

The Bible is divine words. The Bible is authoritative just like God is authoritative. What the Bible says, God says. The Bible is infallible just like God is infallible. The Bible is truth just like God is truth itself. In this sense, the Bible is God. To hear the Bible is to hear God.

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Tree of Life said:

For example, the words of Scripture are not eternal.

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Matthew chapter 24 verse 35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

W2L said:

Commentators seem to believe that hebrews 4:12 refers to Gods words, but not the Lord HImself.

Hebrews 4:12 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

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Truth has a "life."

W2L said:

Commentators say that the "word" in hebrews 4:12 refers to the words of God, but not the divine Logos Himself. Now if we accept their interpretation of that scripture then we must admit that the word refers to the scriptures, or Gods words. If we admit that then we must admit that the scriptures are alive.

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I don't think you should get bogged down in words. The Lord is alive and well. What he has said, he has said - it is all true. But there is a difference of opinion over what he has said.

dreadnought said:

I don't think you should get bogged down in words. The Lord is alive and well. What he has said, he has said - it is all true. But there is a difference of opinion over what he has said.

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Im not getting bogged down, but trying to defend against the accusations of heresy and idolatry.

W2L said:

Im not getting bogged down, but trying to defend against the accusations of heresy and idolatry.

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I haven't accused you of either.

dreadnought said:

I haven't accused you of either.

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I know, others have though.

Some may like to know this is also being discussed at another site. I can't promote the site here but send me a PM

Philip_B said:

I was simply noting that the Greek is logos tou theos which we might well translate Word of God, yet most of us are aware that the is a significance place on the word Logos which we are familiar with in the opening of the Fourth Gospel.

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But the Fourth Gospel does not use the phrase ho logos tou theos. It uses ho logos, and indicates that the Logos was God, rather than being of God.

Hebrews 4:12 is not talking about the Logos, God the Son.

W2L said:

Bread refers to doctrine.

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And you know this how?

Radagast said:

And you know this how?

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I'll retract my comment.

Radagast said:

Hebrews 4:12 is not talking about the Logos, God the Son.

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What is Hebrews 4:12 talking about?

the bible is not God.

we're confusing the injection of essence with a means of communication.

To say that the Bible is God is heresy and blasphemous, as I have already said.

Repent and God will forgive you.

We do not offer worship to the Scriptures, nor do we pray to them, sacrifice to them, or go around telling people, "HEY, look at what's in my hand! It's GOD!! Hey, you non-believers, God is in my very hands, now repent and believe!"

And where in the world do you find any of the Apostles going around preaching that the Scriptures are Christ, or the Word of God?

Furthermore, the Scriptures and the Word of God are not synonymous or equivalent.

The Greek says that Jesus was the Logos of God, not the Graphas of God.

γραφὰς (graphas) — 9 Occurrences

Matthew 22:29 N-AFP
GRK: εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν
NAS: not understanding the Scriptures nor
KJV: knowing the scriptures, nor
INT: knowing the Scriptures nor the

Mark 12:24 N-AFP
GRK: εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν
NAS: that you do not understand the Scriptures or
KJV: not the scriptures, neither
INT: knowing the Scriptures nor the

Luke 24:32 N-AFP
GRK: ἡμῖν τὰς γραφάς
NAS: He was explaining the Scriptures to us?
KJV: he opened to us the scriptures?
INT: to us the Scriptures

Luke 24:45 N-AFP
GRK: συνιέναι τὰς γραφάς
NAS: to understand the Scriptures,
KJV: that they might understand the scriptures,
INT: to understand the Scriptures

John 5:39 N-AFP
GRK: ἐραυνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς ὅτι ὑμεῖς
NAS: You search the Scriptures because
KJV: Search the scriptures; for in
INT: You search the Scriptures for you

Acts 17:11 N-AFP
GRK: ἀνακρίνοντες τὰς γραφὰς εἰ ἔχοι
NAS: examining the Scriptures daily
KJV: and searched the scriptures daily,
INT: examining the Scriptures if were

1 Corinthians 15:3 N-AFP
GRK: κατὰ τὰς γραφάς
NAS: according to the Scriptures,
KJV: sins according to the scriptures;
INT: according to the Scriptures

1 Corinthians 15:4 N-AFP
GRK: κατὰ τὰς γραφάς
NAS: day according to the Scriptures,
KJV: day according to the scriptures:
INT: according to the Scriptures

2 Peter 3:16 N-AFP
GRK: τὰς λοιπὰς γραφὰς πρὸς τὴν
NAS: the rest of the Scriptures, to their own
KJV: the other scriptures, unto
INT: the other Scriptures to the


Your argument is that, since God has spoken to mankind and His words have been written down by His servants, then His words are also part of Him? In one sense, that is true just like I can say that my arm is part of me. But is my arm...me? No. My arm by itself is not me. If my arm were by itself, no one would address it as HwtChirino, but they would say, "Hey, that is HwtChirino's arm."

We never see the Lord Jesus refer to His words as being Himself. We see Him say, "I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me." And, "I am the good shepherd...I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life...I am the Resurrection and the Life...I am the Light of the world...I am the Bread of Life...I AM".

But tell me, please! Where do you read in the Gospels that the Lord says, "I am the Scriptures [graphas]?" Where do you read in the Bible any of the Lord's Apostles saying anything remotely similar to that? No where, no where, absolutely no where.

Your reasoning is not good. Your references are not good. And this doctrine is not good, nor is it God-glorifying since it is a heresy. I urge you, brother, do not delay in your repentance and be humble in admitting your fault.

W2L said:

THe words of Christ are not necessary?

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There were a few things other than "ought one read the words of Christ" in the original post.

To that end - the way many Christians treat the Bible like a craven image of God - dancing around it like it's their version of the Golden Calf - has always given me concern. It's always seemed to me that they sacrifice a real relationship with the living God for a relationship with a book.

Tree of Life said:

Whenever I argue in favor of a high view of Scripture, I inevitably am met by opponents with the assertion that: "The Bible is not God." They mean different things by this. Sometimes they mean that the Bible is not infallible. Sometimes they mean that the Bible is not the only way that God authoritatively speaks to us. Sometimes they mean that the Bible should not be worshipped or revered like we worship God. Whatever they mean, the purpose of their assertion is to diminish the worth and importance of the Bible.

I have no problem affirming that the Bible is God with a few qualifications. First, when I say "the Bible" I am not referring to any particular physical copy of the Bible - any scroll, tome, or book. God is not a book. I'm referring to the Word of God which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Second, I'm not saying that the words of Scripture can be identified with God in every way in a one-to-one sense. There are ways in which the words of Scripture are not God. For example, the words of Scripture are not eternal. They were created at a particular place and particular time by human authors.

So what do I mean? I mean that the Bible is the very speech of God and that his speech cannot be easily separated from his person.

Imagine your mother hands you the phone and says: "John, it's your dad. He wants to talk to you." It would be silly to say: "That's not my dad! That's just a phone! A piece of plastic! I want to talk to my dad!" The phone and John's dad are not identical in every way. But John's dad is on the phone. To interact with the phone is to interact with John's dad. John can hear and speak to his dad through the medium of the phone. The words of the phone are the very words of John's dad.

The Bible is divine words. The Bible is authoritative just like God is authoritative. What the Bible says, God says. The Bible is infallible just like God is infallible. The Bible is truth just like God is truth itself. In this sense, the Bible is God. To hear the Bible is to hear God.

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The Bible is (God's direct Word) spoken to us.

Same yesterday as today.

Some men will always think that they are a little smarter. Not a humble position.

M-Bob

Infallible and inerrant (it's always weird to me how people will separate these two) actually mean something. It either is, or it isn't. Demonstrably it is neither.

That's really not an example of "thinking someone're smarter" - it's acknowledging that what we want to be true, or have been told is true, doesn't necessarily reflect what actually is truth.

I don't get bogged down in worries about "Well, if you mistrust this one thing in the Bible and think it's untrue, how can you be sure of anything else?" Once again - if your relationship is simply with a book (which I would argue is the nature of many people's faiths) - yeah - that would cause worry. If the book is simply simply a part of a larger relationship with Him, then the occasional messup/wacky allegorical tale, etc... in the Bible really doesn't matter.

Tree of Life said:

Whenever I argue in favor of a high view of Scripture, I inevitably am met by opponents with the assertion that: "The Bible is not God." They mean different things by this. Sometimes they mean that the Bible is not infallible. Sometimes they mean that the Bible is not the only way that God authoritatively speaks to us. Sometimes they mean that the Bible should not be worshipped or revered like we worship God. Whatever they mean, the purpose of their assertion is to diminish the worth and importance of the Bible.

I have no problem affirming that the Bible is God with a few qualifications. First, when I say "the Bible" I am not referring to any particular physical copy of the Bible - any scroll, tome, or book. God is not a book. I'm referring to the Word of God which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Second, I'm not saying that the words of Scripture can be identified with God in every way in a one-to-one sense. There are ways in which the words of Scripture are not God. For example, the words of Scripture are not eternal. They were created at a particular place and particular time by human authors.

So what do I mean? I mean that the Bible is the very speech of God and that his speech cannot be easily separated from his person.

Imagine your mother hands you the phone and says: "John, it's your dad. He wants to talk to you." It would be silly to say: "That's not my dad! That's just a phone! A piece of plastic! I want to talk to my dad!" The phone and John's dad are not identical in every way. But John's dad is on the phone. To interact with the phone is to interact with John's dad. John can hear and speak to his dad through the medium of the phone. The words of the phone are the very words of John's dad.

The Bible is divine words. The Bible is authoritative just like God is authoritative. What the Bible says, God says. The Bible is infallible just like God is infallible. The Bible is truth just like God is truth itself. In this sense, the Bible is God. To hear the Bible is to hear God.

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Since Jesus is the word of God, in some sense it is a fact that the Bible is God, as long as you are looking at it in that way (the word of God=Bible=Jesus). I made this same statement a few years back on this forum and some person said something like that was blasphemy. I think they were looking for an argument (like sooooo many people do on these forums).

Really, you can't argue with that. It says so in the Bible that the word was with God, the word WAS God and that Jesus is the word of God. So, as long as you believe that Jesus is God, you also have to see the factual connection of how the Bible, being the word of God (which is equal to Jesus), can also be equated to God.

dhh712 said:

Since Jesus is the word of God, in some sense it is a fact that the Bible is God, as long as you are looking at it in that way (the word of God=Bible=Jesus).

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This is the equivocation fallacy. Jesus is the Word of God. Scripture is the word of God. But Jesus is not Scripture. "Word of God" has different senses and meanings, depending on context and usage. That's like saying that since a river has banks, you should go down to the river to deposit cash.

DZoolander said:

There were a few things other than "ought one read the words of Christ" in the original post.

To that end - the way many Christians treat the Bible like a craven image of God - dancing around it like it's their version of the Golden Calf - has always given me concern. It's always seemed to me that they sacrifice a real relationship with the living God for a relationship with a book.

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I have a relationship with the Lord. Nobody bows down to the bible an treats it like an idol.