Lutheran Churchmanship and Liturgy

Sean611 · Apr 4, 2018

As a former Anglican (Episcopal), we had many great discussions on Churchmanship and liturgical practices. I imagine most are aware of what Churchmanship means, but for those that don't it refers to the liturgical practices of a particular parish/congregation (high church, broad/middle church, and low church). Although Anglicans are the most known for their liturgical/Churchmanship diversity, it seems that Lutherans have some of this diversity as well.

I belong to the LCMS and I'll get started with questions and answers regarding my parish:

1. Does your congregation use incense?
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted?
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole?
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind?
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp?
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at?
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service?
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS)
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar?
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper?
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar?

1. No
2. Sung Mass
3. Just a stole
4. Usually no
5. Yes
6. No
7. Some do
8. No
9. Yes and Yes
10. Yes
11. Yes

I figured this would get us started, feel free to add your own questions!

tampasteve · Apr 4, 2018

My wife and I are usually attending a LCMS Church now, and plan on becoming members, but we used to attend an ELCA church mostly, so I will answer both.

LCMS:
1. Does your congregation use incense? No
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? Said
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? Chasuble and stole in "Traditional service" Just stole in "Contemporary Service" They have both on Sunday.
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? Albs
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? Yes
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? No
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS) No
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? Yes
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Yes
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? No

ELCA:
1. Does your congregation use incense? No
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? Said
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? Chasuble and stole
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? Albs
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? Yes
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes, but not always used.
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? Yes
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS) No
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? No
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Yes
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? Some do

Sean611 · Apr 4, 2018

Thanks for participating tampasteve! In your estimation, which parish had the higher level of churchmanship or were they pretty equal?

tampasteve · Apr 4, 2018

Sean611 said:
Thanks for participating tampasteve! In your estimation, which parish had the higher level of churchmanship or were they pretty equal?

I like the thread, great idea!

Hm, I would say that on balance they are pretty much equal. Where one does one thing, the other does not, but overall they are pretty equal. That is, unless we are comparing the "contemporary service" at the LCMS church as the ELCA church I go to only has one service. The "contemporary service" is much more low church.

Tigger45 · Apr 4, 2018

Sean611 said:
As a former Anglican (Episcopal), we had many great discussions on Churchmanship and liturgical practices. I imagine most are aware of what Churchmanship means, but for those that don't it refers to the liturgical practices of a particular parish/congregation (high church, broad/middle church, and low church). Although Anglicans are the most known for their liturgical/Churchmanship diversity, it seems that Lutherans have some of this diversity as well.

I belong to the LCMS and I'll get started with questions and answers regarding my parish:

1. Does your congregation use incense?
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted?
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole?
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind?
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp?
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at?
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service?
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS)
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar?
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper?
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar?

1. No
2. Sung Mass
3. Just a stole
4. Usually no
5. Yes
6. No
7. Some do
8. No
9. Yes and Yes
10. Yes
11. Yes

I figured this would get us started, feel free to add your own questions!

LCMC congregation
1. No
2. Chanted
3. One wears a stole the other two wear clerical collars
4. No
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Some do some don’t
8. No
9. No, no
10. No
11. No

Kalevalatar · Apr 6, 2018

Member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland

1. Does your congregation use incense? No.
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? Sung.
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? Alb and stole or chasuble/cope.
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? Yes, albs.
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? No.
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes.
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? On personal preference.
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS) No.
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? Yes and yes.
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Yes.
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? Yes.

[English terms are tricky!]

I'll add more questions

:

1. Does your Mass have a liturgist and a sermonist or a multitasking pastor who does both? Usually we have a liturgist, a sermonist and assisting pastors (plus a cantor), but recently we have been trying out the practice of the litrugist' giving the sermon as well.
2. Does your parish employ cantors? Yes, our Church Law dictates that every parish shall employ (at least) one fulltime cantor.
3. Does your parish do responsory? Yes.
4. Do you have ushers and collect offering? Yes. Also the sextons help.
5. Do you begin your weekly Masses with opening procession? Yes.
6. As part of the Prayers of Intercession, do you read out banns and the names of the parishioners who have passed away or have been baptised? Yes.

tampasteve · Apr 6, 2018

LCMS:
1. Does your Mass have a liturgist and a sermonist or a multitasking pastor who does both? He does both.
2. Does your parish employ cantors? Yes
3. Does your parish do responsory? Yes.
4. Do you have ushers and collect offering? Yes.
5. Do you begin your weekly Masses with opening procession? Yes, in the "Traditional Service" but not in the "Contemporary Service".
6. As part of the Prayers of Intercession, do you read out banns and the names of the parishioners who have passed away or have been baptized? Yes.

ELCA:
1. Does your Mass have a liturgist and a sermonist or a multitasking pastor who does both? He does both.
2. Does your parish employ cantors? Yes
3. Does your parish do responsory? Yes.
4. Do you have ushers and collect offering? Yes.
5. Do you begin your weekly Masses with opening procession? Yes
6. As part of the Prayers of Intercession, do you read out banns and the names of the parishioners who have passed away or have been baptized? Yes.

I will also add another question:
Does your parish have Deacons/Deaconess?
ELCA: Yes, there is a recently ordained Deaconess
LCMS: No, not currently

Kalevalatar · Apr 6, 2018

Does your parish have Deacons/Deaconess? Yes, we ordain deacons for the Church's diaconal social work.

Sean611 · Apr 6, 2018

Great questions!!

1. Does your Mass have a liturgist and a sermonist or a multitasking pastor who does both? He does both.
2. Does your parish employ cantors? No, but on a side note we sometimes have a brass section
3. Does your parish do responsory? Yes
4. Do you have ushers and collect offering? Yes
5. Do you begin your weekly Masses with opening procession? Not generally, usually just a lone person who lights the candles.
6. As part of the Prayers of Intercession, do you read out banns and the names of the parishioners who have passed away or have been baptized? Not generally
7. Does your parish have Deacons/Deaconess? Not at the moment

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 13, 2018

Lutheran Church Canada; use Lutheran Service Book:
1. Does your congregation use incense?
No
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted?
Sung
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole?
Yes
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind?
Yes
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp?
Yes
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at?
Yes
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service?
Variable
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS)
Yes, but in the Sacristy, not the Chancel.
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar?
Yes and yes
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper?
Varies by parish. Some of our clergy genuflect during the consecration as well.
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar?
Yes.

Do these things matter, no.

Sean611 · Apr 13, 2018

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Do these things matter, no.

Thanks for your answers Mark! The purpose of this thread wasn't to debate the importance of these liturgical practices, but made out of curiosity regarding Lutherans and different Lutheran groups.

Also, no, these questions and liturgical practices are quite specific and are not a huge deal. However, I would say that understanding the purpose of different liturgical practices can be important and the way we worship says a lot about our particular branch of Christianity and how we worship God.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 14, 2018

Sean611 said:
Thanks for your answers Mark! The purpose of this thread wasn't to debate the importance of these liturgical practices, but made out of curiosity regarding Lutherans and different Lutheran groups.

Also, no, these questions and liturgical practices are quite specific and are not a huge deal. However, I would say that understanding the purpose of different liturgical practices can be important and the way we worship says a lot about our particular branch of Christianity and how we worship God.

Hi Sean,

I agree, and I certainly could be described as a "High Mass Lutheran". I just don't want anyone to get the idea that services that are heavy on liturgy are "better" than simpler services. :amen:

Sean611 · Apr 14, 2018

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Hi Sean,

I agree, and I certainly could be described as a "High Mass Lutheran". I just don't want anyone to get the idea that services that are heavy on liturgy are "better" than simpler services.

I definitely agree, amen!

derpytia · May 5, 2018

I too am curious about this diversity amongst Lutherans

I belong to an LCMS Lutheran Church in California.

1. Does your congregation use incense? No
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? Some parts are chanted, some parts are sung-chanted, and some are spoken.
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? Just a stole
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? Altar boys/girls wear a simple white alb and wooden cross necklace.
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? No
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? Some do
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS) Yes
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? No
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Yes
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? If they are actually going up to it, Yes. If they are just kneeling at the communion rail, no.

Shane R · May 17, 2018

Allow me to answer from approximately three years of LCMS attendance in SC, VA, TX and various chaplains' services.
1. Does your congregation use incense? I have never attended an LCMS service in which incense was used.
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? In parish churches, usually sung or chanted. Military chaplains nearly always go the simplest, lowest route and all of theirs were said.
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? 3 out of the 4 parishes I attended were only using stoles. 1 used a chasuble (TX). With military chaplains, even the stole is an iffy proposition. If they do it's nearly always green, regardless of the season of the church year.
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? Usually albs
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? Yes. Except at the parish in SC.
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes. But never with military chaplains even though at Great Lakes the Lutherans had their own space to do with as they wished.
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? Yes, according to personal sensibilities.
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS) I have only seen a tabernacle in one LCMS church (TX). It was not used though. It was essentially ornamental at that point in its life.
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? 3/4 yes. LCMS chaplains always served versus populum (facing the people). Although, aboard ship, the table had been installed in a way which would logically point to that type of celebration in the ship's chapel probably due to prevailing RCC norms.
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Yes.
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? Not most.

Interestingly, I know of an LCMS church in NC which is sharing their space with an ACNA church. They have what Anglicans would generally consider a 'high altar' with a traditional choir seating area in the chancel. I don't really know what the Lutherans do but the Anglican priest is permitted to use incense on the Red Letter feasts. I worked with him one Sunday last year at the request of my bishop to see how a Spanish service was done and to give him some guidance on transitioning to the 1928 BCP. Here is a picture of the church at Christmas.

FireDragon76 · May 23, 2018

At our ELCA congregation we do not use incense. Sometimes our liturgy is partly sung, particularly on festival days. There's lots of singing in our regular service, though often short hymns and antiphons mixed with three main hymns.

I don't really miss incense too much, tbh.

The pastor dons a chausible before Communion. All the people serving at the altar wear modern white albs. Sometimes the cantor does not wear an alb if he is not serving communion also.

We do have a sanctuary lamp hanging above the altar.

Given that our church has more modern architecture (it looks like Noah's Ark with stained glass portholes), I think the style of service we have suits our congregation.

All in all, our service is very similar to an average Catholic or middle-of-the-road Episcopalian service.

Sometimes we use a piano, particularly for any hymns that are spirituals. I've encouraged our pastor from time to time to sing more of those, as they are ones I am fond of.

Shane R · Jun 25, 2018

That same LCMS parish I mentioned earlier that is sharing space with an ACNA parish graciously hosted the General Convention of my own Anglican jurisdiction (OAC) last weekend at the behest of the Anglican priest on site. Here is a picture you probably seldom see in LCMS churches:

They let us pull out all the stops and do things our way. The LCMS pastor who runs the place is the second face from the (R) in the chancel area. He witnessed our whole 2:00 service, even read the Epistle appointed for the occasion, but did not receive the sacrament from our clergy. I've never seen an LCMS pastor wear a zuchetto before but I guess he donned one to fit in.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jun 26, 2018

Sean611 said:
1. Does your congregation use incense?

No

2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted?

Some said, some sung. None chanted.

3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole?

Vestment and stole, no chasuble.

4. Do your lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind?

No.

5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp?

No.

6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at?

Yes.

7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service?

Roughly half do, half don't.

8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS)

No.

9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar?

No.

10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper?

No.

11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar?

Yes.

.

Shane R · Sep 10, 2018

I was in my hometown in Ohio a couple of weeks ago and, for want of any better option, I attended a NALC communion service. It was the most low-church Lutheran service I have ever seen that wasn't conducted by a military chaplain. I'll answer the questions again according to the norms of that parish.

1. Does your congregation use incense? No. Nor was there a thurible in sight.
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? The clergy parts were said but the pastor was 80 years old and clearly running on fumes, so to speak, and just to get through a service taxes him greatly at this stage. Many of the responses were sung.
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? There were two clergy, the aforementioned 80 year old pastor and a man about my age who is their evangelist or outreach pastor or something of that nature. Neither vested and both wore colored shirts that no Anglican that was not a bishop would dare to wear. The presiding pastor did not don a stole either.
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? No. The acolyte was the only person in an alb.
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? Yes.
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes.
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? Very few. My 3 yr. old daughter made the sign of the cross more than the average parishioner and she was in Sunday school for 2/3 of the service.
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? (I imagine this would be pretty uncommon in the LCMS) No.
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? No to both.
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Interestingly, they did not have a chalice and paten. They were using a tray-style communion set. He tried to raise the trays up some, but his strength and balance were clearly a limiting factor to what he could do.
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? No.

This parish also had an organist/pianist and a small choir. Their music was quite good.

Newtheran · Sep 23, 2018

LCMS:

1. Does your congregation use incense? No.
2. Is the Mass sung, said, or chanted? Said.
3. Does your priest/pastor wear a chasuble/vestment or just a stole? Stole
4. Do your deacons or lay helpers wear albs or vestments of any kind? No.
5. Does your parish have a sanctus light or presence lamp? Yes.
6. Does your parish have a communion rail to kneel at? Yes.
7. Does your congregation make sign of the cross at various points during the service? Yes (on personal preference)
8. Does your parish reserve the sacrament in a tabernacle? No.
9. Does your parish altar face Eastward? Yes.
Does the pastor face Eastward toward the altar? Yes.
10. Does your pastor raise the elements above his head during the Lord's Supper? Yes
11. Do the congregants bow when they go up to the altar? Some

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