SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

Gr8Grace · Apr 13, 2018

EmSw said:
Want to know what John said righteousness is?

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Did you get that? 'HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS'. Go ahead, and make something else up about this passage.

Well, don't miss this part........"Let no man deceive you."

Rightly dividing His word is doing righteousness, Wrongly dividing His word is doing unrighteousness. Rightly dividing His word is arguably the most important act of righteousness we can do after we are saved. And arguably the most hazardous unrighteous thing to do is wrongly divide it and teaching that false doctrine.
James 3:1~~Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

We can't have both loss of salvation and eternal security at the same time....they are mutually exclusive.

So one of us is DOING unrighteousness. And The Lord Jesus Himself said that His sheep have eternal life and will NEVER perish. John 10:28. And will not,absolutely will not ever come into condemnation.

New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Those who truly possess eternal life will continue in His goodness, simple as that.

This opinion is refuted by all the commands for holiness and faithfulness.

If your opinion was true, there would be no need for any such commands.

If one is sealed by the Holy Spirit, he will continue to bear the fruit of goodness (Galatians 5:22-23).

How about reading the context for the fruit of the Spirit?

Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Do you not see the condition for avoiding the desires of the flesh? It is by walking by the Spirit. The phrase "walk by the Spirit" is not about the status of being saved, but the status of being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).

Only then will the believer not gratify the desires of the flesh.

But, those believers who are not walking by the Spirit, but by their own will, WILL gratify the desires of the flesh.

In Romans 11:20-22, God promises to cut off those who don't continue in His goodness. re #1368.

Please define "cut off". Remember the words were used in a metaphor.

BNR32FAN · Apr 13, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
The term saved by itself without any other reference to refer to is referring to salvation. Anyone who knows the scriptures knows this. Including you.

I noticed you’ve declined to present any scripture evidence of this claim in reference to James 2:14

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

Faith=pistis G4102=faith, faithfulness, fidelity, trust, trustworthiness.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

I said this:
"No, 1 John 1:8 is plain enough. Your opinion and assumptions are just that.

Both v.8 and 10 refute your claims about "cannot sin"."

justbyfaith said:
Optimistic stands for "wishful thinking."

Yes, I agree. Your opinion and assumptions are just wishful thinking.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I both have sin (sin dwells in my mortal flesh) and I have sinned (in the past).

If you deny an ongoing struggle with sin currently, then 1 John 1:8 and 10 are directed at you.

This is not to say that I do sin

Well, you do, whether you're aware of it or not. And again, 1 John 1:8 and 10 apply to you.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

Right. Only those believers who are in fellowship with the Lord do not sin. They are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. The rest are doing that when they are out of fellowship.

1 John 2:17b says, he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Of course. John 6:40 says the same thing: For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

So I believe in eternal security for the saint, not the sinner.

Then your opinion and assumption is unbiblical. The Bible says recipients of eternal life shall never perish (Jn 10:28a).

So, all who have believed shall never perish, and all who have never believed shall perish.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
When you say, Can't have it both ways, you are disregarding what it also says in quoting Romans 5:5 that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost.

That's just another opinion.

If you looked at it more closely, you would see that a strong case is being made for entire sanctification (not sinless perfection: that is a misnomer and a slander on the doctrine and also a misrepresentation of what it really teaches).

What I've seen from your posts is a lack of understanding of the difference between positional and experiential sanctification.

Also it is saying that the key to entire sanctification, which the author has found and implemented, is to not base our salvation on our performance but on the Cross of Christ. CONTRADICTIONS RECONCILED. Next...

Your opinions continue to be contradicted by Scripture.

But, of course our salvation is not based on our performance but Christ's performance (the Cross).

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
And like I said, it's written in spiritual language.

One can say whatever they want, but that doesn't make it right or true. The Bible was written in plain language so that it could be understood.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
He who believes has everlasting life. This is speaking of a LIVING FAITH: believing with THE HEART; which is UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 10:10). re #1368.

There is NOTHING in your opinion that "believing" is a "living faith". Where did you get that from? Certainly not the Bible. Or we would be seeing a citation or quote.

The present tense for 'believe' in the Greek means believing currently or right now. It says nothing about results in the future, as your opinion is trying to claim.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

I said this:
"Here, the words "everlasting life" refers to eternity itself. Not just having the gift, which comes from believing in Jesus Christ as Savior. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

I know your opinion is that these verses are just my opinion and not Scripture, but that's on you."

JLB777 said:
Here are those who will receive eternal life, on the Day of Judgement.

Wrong. Eternal life is given when one believes, according to Jesus. I believe what He says. Not what you opine.

John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47 all say those who believe CURRENTLY POSSESS (present tense) eternal life. So you can opine all you want. But you'll just always be wrong.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

But Rom 3:12 says that there is "none good". So much for your opinion that any person can receive eternal life by continuance in doing good.

If you have a scripture that teaches, those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will also receive eternal life, then please share it with us.

What I have I've already shared with you about WHEN eternal life is given, but it seems you continually resist the fact and Scripture in order to push your own agenda and opinions.

Eternal life is a gift that is given to those who believe, because Jesus said that whoever believes HAS eternal life.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I noticed you’ve declined to present any scripture evidence of this claim in reference to James 2:14

I have many times, but on many other threads and probably earlier in this thread as well.

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

Your gross assumption and error was to insert the word "anyone" in that verse. It doesn't occur. But you've assumed otherwise.

It simply says "can that faith save?" The Greek grammar demands a negative answer. So, NO, it cannot save. So, now we must understand what we are NOT going to be saved FROM if our faith doesn't produce works.

Well, just read the next 2 verses:
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

The one who says this in v.16 is simply a hypocrite. A word that Jesus used often of Pharisees, and James would have been quite aware of, and probably wincing every time he heard about it.

The idiot in v.16 is assumed to be a believer by the phrase "if one of you says...". And James was addressing Jewish believers.

Maybe being called a hypocrite wouldn't bother you much, but it really bothered the Pharisees. And one of the primary reasons people give for not going to church is because "that's where the hypocrites go", not that they're even right. Certainly there are hypocrites in every group. But the point in 2:14 isn't about how to get saved, since James is addressing those who are already saved. He wasn't challenging their salvation.

And look at the rest of ch 2 and 3; full of hypocrisy, even though James never used that word.

We all know what a hypocrite looks like. We don't need the actual word to understand what James was speaking about.

Consider how believers might treat a rich man vs a poor man who attends their assembly in 2:1-4. Yes, James did mention "favoritism", but the point is about hypocrisy, as seen in his commentary in v.4 - have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Isn't that what hypocrites do? They judge others but do the same things themselves.

BNR32FAN · Apr 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I have many times, but on many other threads and probably earlier in this thread as well.

Your gross assumption and error was to insert the word "anyone" in that verse. It doesn't occur. But you've assumed otherwise.

It simply says "can that faith save?" The Greek grammar demands a negative answer. So, NO, it cannot save. So, now we must understand what we are NOT going to be saved FROM if our faith doesn't produce works.

Well, just read the next 2 verses:
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

The one who says this in v.16 is simply a hypocrite. A word that Jesus used often of Pharisees, and James would have been quite aware of, and probably wincing every time he heard about it.

The idiot in v.16 is assumed to be a believer by the phrase "if one of you says...". And James was addressing Jewish believers.

Maybe being called a hypocrite wouldn't bother you much, but it really bothered the Pharisees. And one of the primary reasons people give for not going to church is because "that's where the hypocrites go", not that they're even right. Certainly there are hypocrites in every group. But the point in 2:14 isn't about how to get saved, since James is addressing those who are already saved. He wasn't challenging their salvation.

And look at the rest of ch 2 and 3; full of hypocrisy, even though James never used that word.

We all know what a hypocrite looks like. We don't need the actual word to understand what James was speaking about.

Consider how believers might treat a rich man vs a poor man who attends their assembly in 2:1-4. Yes, James did mention "favoritism", but the point is about hypocrisy, as seen in his commentary in v.4 - have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Isn't that what hypocrites do? They judge others but do the same things themselves.

I didn’t add the word anyone it was just part of the Bible version I used. I didn’t think the word anyone actually changed the definition of the word save but for what it’s worth here’s the actual Greek translation and it doesn’t say can that kind of faith save it says is that faith able to save him. Him referring to the person who says he has faith and doesn’t have works. Just to avoid anymore confusion on the vernacular I’ve taken the liberty of including the Greek and English word for word translation along with Strong’s reference numbers in case there’s any questions on the definition of any of these words. I’ve never had to do this before for such a simple and plainly written statement in the Bible.

James 2:14

14 What [is] the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

14 Τί (what) G5101 IPro-NNS ὄφελος (use) G3786 N-NNS ἀδελφοί (brethren) G80 N-VMP μου (my) G1473 PPro-G1S ἐὰν (if) G1437 Conj πίστιν (faith) G4102 N-AFS λέγῃ (says) G3004 V-PSA-3S τις (someone) G5100 IPro-NMS ἔχειν (has) G2192 V-PNA ἔργα (works) G2041 N-ANP δὲ (and) G1161 Conj μὴ (no) G3361 Adv ἔχῃ (has) G2192 V-PSA-3S μὴ (no) G3361 Adv δύναται (can) G1410 V-PIM/P-3S ἡ (the) G3588 Art-NFS πίστις (faith) G4102 N-NFS σῶσαι (save) G4982 V-ANA αὐτόν (him) G846 PPro-AM3S

We are saved by God’s grace thru faith. James describes faith without works as dead and useless, comparing it to the same faith that demons have and yet when he asks can this kind of faith save someone you say yes. You honestly believe that when James said can that kind of faith save he was actually saying can that kind of faith save someone from hipocracy? I am completely baffled. Like I said before if satan were a man he would be saved by your idea of what is necessary for salvation. You are completely blind and even worse is you absolutely refuse to admit that you are wrong despite all of the evidence that has proved you wrong. I find it extremely hard to believe that you refuse to see the truth out of ignorance. It appears you are deliberately ignoring scriptures that disprove you belief. I will surely pray for you brother.

justbyfaith · Apr 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NOTHING in your opinion that "believing" is a "living faith". Where did you get that from? Certainly not the Bible. Or we would be seeing a citation or quote.

The present tense for 'believe' in the Greek means believing currently or right now. It says nothing about results in the future, as your opinion is trying to claim.

Do you even know your Bible? I got lazy for a second, and didn't reference James 2:17. A living faith is the opposite of a dead faith. Titus 2:1 says, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine."

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I didn’t add the word anyone it was just part of the Bible version I used.

I stand corrected. My version and most versions have "him". However, my point stands. Which is this: those who have faith and don't demonstrate their faith by works are hypocrites.

I didn’t think the word anyone actually changed the definition of the word save but for what it’s worth here’s the actual Greek translation and it doesn’t say can that kind of faith save it says is that faith able to save him. Him referring to the person who says he has faith and doesn’t have works. Just to avoid anymore confusion on the vernacular I’ve taken the liberty of including the Greek and English word for word translation along with Strong’s reference numbers in case there’s any questions on the definition of any of these words. I’ve never had to do this before for such a simple and plainly written statement in the Bible.

James 2:14

14 What [is] the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

14 Τί (what) G5101 IPro-NNS ὄφελος (use) G3786 N-NNS ἀδελφοί (brethren) G80 N-VMP μου (my) G1473 PPro-G1S ἐὰν (if) G1437 Conj πίστιν (faith) G4102 N-AFS λέγῃ (says) G3004 V-PSA-3S τις (someone) G5100 IPro-NMS ἔχειν (has) G2192 V-PNA ἔργα (works) G2041 N-ANP δὲ (and) G1161 Conj μὴ (no) G3361 Adv ἔχῃ (has) G2192 V-PSA-3S μὴ (no) G3361 Adv δύναται (can) G1410 V-PIM/P-3S ἡ (the) G3588 Art-NFS πίστις (faith) G4102 N-NFS σῶσαι (save) G4982 V-ANA αὐτόν (him) G846 PPro-AM3S

We are saved by God’s grace thru faith. James describes faith without works as dead and useless, comparing it to the same faith that demons have and yet when he asks can this kind of faith save someone you say yes. You honestly believe that when James said can that kind of faith save he was actually saying can that kind of faith save someone from hipocracy? I am completely baffled. Like I said before if satan were a man he would be saved by your idea of what is necessary for salvation. You are completely blind and even worse is you absolutely refuse to admit that you are wrong despite all of the evidence that has proved you wrong. I find it extremely hard to believe that you refuse to see the truth out of ignorance. It appears you are deliberately ignoring scriptures that disprove you belief. I will surely pray for you brother.

How about just addressing my point, which I supported from the CONTEXT in v.15,16.

Such a person who would pass by cold and hungry people and just give lip service ARE hypocrites.

That anyone would disagree is sad.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Do you even know your Bible?

Quite well, thank you. I read through all the epistles and Acts and Revelation monthly, and have been doing that for about 16 years.

I got lazy for a second, and didn't reference James 2:17. A living faith is the opposite of a dead faith.

If the Bible actually spoke of a "living faith", you'd have a point. James' point is that a faith without works is useless in demonstrating one's faith to others.

Consider these 3 verses:
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Some translations use "dead" in all 3 verses. But the NIV uses "useless" in v.20. My point is that in the Greek, v.17 and 26 have "nekra", which is used for both literal and figurative death. However, v.20 uses the word "arge" which is translated useless, barren, unproductive. So all 3 verses are about the same thing.

A faith without works is useless. But not for receiving eternal salvation, but in avoiding the charge of hypocrisy. One MUST ignore the context of v.15,16 in order to NOT SEE hypocrisy as the issue related to v.14.

Wanna be a hypocrite? Just don't live out your faith.

Or as v.18 challenges, "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith BY MY WORKS".

It's impossible to show one's faith apart from works. How is that difficult to understand or accept?

justbyfaith · Apr 13, 2018

See Job 8:13-14, Job 15:34, and Job 36:13.

justbyfaith · Apr 13, 2018

Also, the Bible says that faith without works is dead. Therefore a faith with works would be ______________.

Answer: living.

Titus 2:1 gives us instruction to speak the things that will become sound doctrine.

Not to teach such things as would result in plain verses of scripture being denied as truth.

Such as replacing the word dead with the word useless so as to deny the plain biblical teaching that faith without works is dead; and that it is a living faith that saves.

My Bible tells me to turn away from those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, and to reject a heretic after a first and second admonition. 2 Timothy 3:5, Titus 3:10.

Consider this admonition #1.

You have denied the plain biblical teaching that faith without works is DEAD, and it is a LIVING faith which saves. Unless you care to state below that you believe a dead faith doesn't have the power to save anyone, and that the term living faith is one based on biblical doctrine...

Grip Docility · Apr 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I stand corrected. My version and most versions have "him". However, my point stands. Which is this: those who have faith and don't demonstrate their faith by works are hypocrites.

How about just addressing my point, which I supported from the CONTEXT in v.15,16.

Such a person who would pass by cold and hungry people and just give lip service ARE hypocrites.

That anyone would disagree is sad.

By moving the idea of works back to “pleasing God” by “Not sinning”... which is absolutely USELESS in light that we all sin and fall short... people take what was meant as a call to limitless Grace and compassion and reduce it to a holiness club!

But... when James is brought into the scope of Love, Mercy and Merritless acts of Kindness towards ALL (As in we treat EVERYONE as a brother or sister in HIM.., because He died for ALL) humanity in heart, soul and deed (including recognizing brethren not by the state of their flesh, but by the state of their actual profession of the power of the Gospel and their heart that yearns to build up and not tear down those around them)...

The throats get cleared and nay saying starts up!

Satan focuses on Sin! Jesus handled that issue by crucifying all charges against ALL...

Now... the Spirit blows where it may and no one can see where the “Wind” is blowing but GOD...

The pointing out sin game / proclaiming sinlessness game ... helps NO ONE...

However... a heart of mercy towards all... bound to the loving Forgivness of Jesus... (That judges NO flesh) now that’s something...

EmSw · Apr 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You're free to think whatever you want to about them. This thread isn't about any of these. You're just trying to derail the thread.

So, the mind and heart have nothing to do with salvation, right?

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, and no. Yes, unbelievers (I prefer to be specific, since ALL humans are sinners) do not have the abilityy to properly worship God. Are you arguing against what Jesus told the woman at the well? Sure looks that way.

Not arguing, just wondering why you said death was not properly worshiping God.

FreeGrace2 said:
And, no, it is not "their death", whatever that means. Humans are born spiritually dead, or didn't you get the memo. When a person places their trust in Jesus as their Savior, they are born again, or as Paul wrote, "made alive", or spiritual birth.

Or didn't you get the memo?

Now you say it is not their death, but earlier you said it was Adam and Eve's death.

FreeGrace2 said:
What does having no fear have to do with anything? Doesn't matter what people fear or not. Reality is reality. Unless one receives the free gift of eternal life, they will end up in the lake of fire, for eternity. It all comes down to whether people believe what God has revealed. So I don't care what people fear or not.

Care to share where it says unless one receives the free gift of eternal life, they will end up in the lake of fire? I can show you where those who were once believers, and are now unbelievers end up in the lake of fire, and also liars. Do you think any believers are liars?

EmSw · Apr 13, 2018

Grip Docility said:
Satan focuses on Sin! Jesus handled that issue by crucifying all charges against ALL...

The pointing out sin game / proclaiming sinlessness game ... helps NO ONE...

Maybe you should see what Jesus pointed out to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3.

justbyfaith · Apr 13, 2018

Grip Docility said:
By moving the idea of works back to “pleasing God” by “Not sinning”... which is absolutely USELESS in light that we all sin and fall short... people take what was meant as a call to limitless Grace and compassion and reduce it to a holiness club!

But... when James is brought into the scope of Love, Mercy and Merritless acts of Kindness towards ALL (As in we treat EVERYONE as a brother or sister in HIM.., because He died for ALL) humanity in heart, soul and deed (including recognizing brethren not by the state of their flesh, but by the state of their actual profession of the power of the Gospel and their heart that yearns to build up and not tear down those around them)...

The throats get cleared and nay saying starts up!

Satan focuses on Sin! Jesus handled that issue by crucifying all charges against ALL...

Now... the Spirit blows where it may and no one can see where the “Wind” is blowing but GOD...

The pointing out sin game / proclaiming sinlessness game ... helps NO ONE...

However... a heart of mercy towards all... bound to the loving Forgivness of Jesus... (That judges NO flesh) now that’s something...

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