Yes repenting Jews in Israel that realized that Jesus IS the true Messiah will be accepted into the church
Are you saying that no Gentiles will come to faith in Christ during this time?
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Yes repenting Jews in Israel that realized that Jesus IS the true Messiah will be accepted into the church
There is a very good likelihood that there will be , some people say that no one can come to Christ during that time , but that is just a misunderstanding of the scripture that tells us that the deception/great delusion is so powerfully deceiving that if the Jewish elect did not know the scriptures that they to would be deceived,Are you saying that no Gentiles will come to faith in Christ during this time?
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The gathering of the elects by the angels mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapiemur [caught up and gathering]...mentioned to happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD IN 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18RAPIEMUR is Not in Matt 24 either
Jesus was not mentioned to be among them in Revelation 4 ...Yes He was He was at the center of the Throne surrounded by the 24 elders and the 4 living creatures
Revelation 14:9-13No is not at all what it says , you have a major misunderstanding there !
Paul say clearly that the APOSTASY [departure from the faith] among the believers will happen before the revealing of the man of sin [antichrist].Christians who will massively depart from the Faith is a false interpretation and does not fit the narrative of the text at all , there is no text anywhere that says Christians will massively depart from the faith , in truth the apostasy in the manner you are trying to imply is happening now
And they repented not of their sins ...cited at the end of Revelation 9:13-21 ...and in Revelation 16 [they repented not and they blasphemed God ]seem to indicate clearly that the Tribulation time will not produce people who will repent... and give glory to God. The Tribulation time will rather produce people totally angry against God because of the long list of calamities and woes ... from Revelation 8 Through Revelation 16.Are you saying that no Gentiles will come to faith in Christ during this time?
Where do you see the word RAPIEMUR in Revelation 4 and Revelation 5 ?...
The text is about John who have seen in a VISION a scenery of the Throne Room of God in Heaven while he was in the spirit...John body have never quit the Patmos Island...What John describe in Revelation 4 and Revelation 5 are Celestials beings :..Angels...the Four Beasts ...the 24 Elders sitting on 24 Thrones.
The fact that they were searching for someone worthy to open the seals mean that Jesus was not there at that moment in Revelation 4 ...Jesus is seen in the throne room only in Revelation 5:6...
No ,the things who is implying the church [example the martyrs]...until the Coming of Jesus in Glory ...You seem to believe that the Christians martyrs will begin only during the 42 months reign of the Antichrist [Revelation 13]...The Christians martyred for their testimony of Jesus begin in the first century...
That is not about 7 churches ages ...
Can you show us a Bible verse saying that ?
The mystery is that the few believers who will still be alive unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory will not know death but will be changed into immortality ...
Can you describe how living today cause suffering ?Are you talking about the Christians who are martyred for their faith in Muslim countries ?
No one who will worship the Beast and his image and who will take the mark of the beast will be saved Revelation 14:9-13...there will not be any new believers during the tribulation but actual Christians who will massively depart from the Faith [APOSTASY]long before the 42 months reign of the Beast.
Yes ,that is exactly what i said ...
That is about the believers who will still be alive and REMAIN UNTO the Coming of Jesus in Glory....that is not about a 7 years trip to Heaven before the Coming of Jesus.8. The mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51: Behold I shew you a mystery, WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED. This is different than the Resurrection of the Dead only John 5:28-29; Hebrews 6:1-2; Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-5.
Jerry Kelso
And they repented not of their sins ...cited at the end of Revelation 9:13-21 ...and in Revelation 16 [they repented not and they blasphemed God ]seem to indicate clearly that the Tribulation time will not produce people who will repent... and give glory to God. The Tribulation time will rather produce people totally angry against God because of the long list of calamities and woes ... from Revelation 8 Through Revelation 16.
NO it is NOT , there is s difference between a snatching away and a gathering that is why there are 2 different words in the original text , the rapiemur which is just the Latin translation of the original Greek word Harpazo that Paul used in Thess 4 Harpazo is to "snatch away violently with force suddenly and unexpectedly" .The gathering of the elects by the angels mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapiemur [caught up and gathering]...mentioned to happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD IN 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
It is taught throughout scripture that "Jesus IS the Lamb that was slain "Jesus was not mentioned to be among them in Revelation 4 ...
IF ANY MAN WORSHIP the beast and his image and take his mark----the same shall drink of the wrath of God- It means what it says -Revelation 14:9-13
How do you interpret IF ANY MAN WORSHIP the beast and his image and take his mark----the same shall drink of the wrath of God ...Are you suggesting that Christians can take the mark and worship the beast with no consequence ?
The idea that at some future time that suddenly a massive amount of people would simultaneously depart from the faith is a false understanding - that would not happen - this is where you need to truly examine the condition of many people that profess to be Christian simply because they attend a social function every weekend to listen to a sermon and want to be the first car leaving the parking lot of the church so they won't have to wait 5 minutes to get in line to get out into traffic to go have lunchPaul say clearly that the APOSTASY [departure from the faith] among the believers will happen before the revealing of the man of sin [antichrist].
That will imply more than just few people....thus Paul refers to a massive departure from the faith of the believers.
What makes you think that this refers to NEW believers ?...Some will not repent, but that does not mean others will not.
The Book of Revelation contains both the lost and the saved.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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What makes you think that this refers to NEW believers ...
Just go outside actually and try to convince some sinners to repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior ...they will just laugh at you ,and you will get lucky if they don't hit you if you insist too much.Now imagine the scene during the events described in Revelation 8 through Revelation 16 ....while they will know that these are plagues from God ...What makes you think a switch is turned off during the tribulation period which keeps all people from accepting the Gospel during that time period?
riberra,
1. Meta Tauta is after all these things.
After all these things is after the church age Revelation 4:1.
Now I understand that this was written directly to the 7 churches of ASIA Revelation 1:9.
But the book of Revelation is a prophecy Revelation 1:3.
2. 1 Thessalonians 4-17 caught up is the raptus in the Latin Vulgate
which is the English rapture meaning to seize or catch up as in come up hither in Revelation 4:1.
Our probationary is now 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer we shall reign.
Enoch is a type of the rapture and was translated to Heaven before Noah’s flood.
Enoch also prophesied that the Lord come with tens of thousands of his saints from Heaven to do judgement Jude 1:17 which is shown in Revelation 19:11-21.
3. The 24 elders are saints in Christ; both Old and New Testament saints that will reign on the earth.
The four beasts are never on the earth.
Saints will judge the world 1 Corinthians 6:2. Angels will be ruled by saints 1 Corinthians 6:3.
Angels are not humans, so the 24 elders are human who are saints. They cast their crowns at Christ feet. Redeemed by the blood out of every kindred and tongue and people Revelation 5:9.
4. Isaiah saw the Lord sitting upon a throne high and lifted up and his train filled the temple. Isaiah 6:1.
Paul was taken up to the third in Heaven whether in the body or not 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
Ezekiel had the hand of the Lord upon him and set him down in the midst of the valley of bones.
God is the ultimate judge 1 Corinthians 15:28. Christ was in Heaven since he went back to Heaven and he was in Heaven in Revelation 4 and falls in line with him making an entrance as the Lamb who was slain in the midst of the elders who the lamb died for vs.
5. Martyrs mentioned in the Fifth seal in the First part of the tribulation are the result of the first Four seals.
6. The 7 church periods belief is very convincing.
The basic truth is that it covers all the church age.
It is true the professing church will get worse but the gates of hell shall never prevail against the true church and they will overcome and receive everything that includes church propmises.
Ephesus-eat of the true life in the midst of the paradise of God.
Smyrna-crown of life and shall not be hurt of the second death.
Pergamos-eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone a new name written which no man knowers saving he that receiveth it.
Thyatira-give Power over the nation and shall rule with a rod of iron as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers, even as Christ received of the father.
Sardis-clothed in white raiment and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels
Philadelphia-make a pillar in the temple of God and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God which is New Jerusalem which comets down out of Heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name.
Laodicea-grant to sit with me in my thro e even as I also overcome and am set down with my father in the throne.
7. There will be new believers such as souls under the altar, tribulation saints in Revelation 8 that John didn’t know were new saints. He would have recognized the church.
Revelation 13:7;15:1-2.
There will also be an apostasy 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
8. The mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51: Behold I shew you a mystery, WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED. This is different than the Resurrection of the Dead only John 5:28-29; Hebrews 6:1-2; Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-5.
Jerry Kelso
That is about the believers who will still be alive and REMAIN UNTO the Coming of Jesus in Glory....that is not about a 7 years trip to Heaven before the Coming of Jesus.
You could say the same reason they didn’t know the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles into one body alike.
The Apostle Paul said that Hosea knew.
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Maybe you can try to ignore this passage and nobody will notice...
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No such thing as various 'Church Ages'. That's a doctrine from John Darby's Dispensatiionalism. It's added theory to The Bible, not written in The Bible. We are not in some Laodiciean Church Age. That is a wrong interpretation of Christ's seven Messages to the seven Churches in Asia. ALL seven of those Messages are still for ALL Churches today, five of them as warnings, and two of them as admonitions.
There is no Greek word harpazo ("caught up") in the Rev.4:1 verse. It is not about a rapture or raptus. It's about John being given a vision of the heavenly while he was in prison on the Isle of Patmos. The Greek word for KJV "Come up" is Greek anabaino which simply means to 'go up' and can be figurative. It would have to be the Greek word harpazo to mean the rapture.
The view of the 24 elders in the heavenly already with their crowns is a FUTURE VIEW AFTER Christ's return and when He is reigning with His elect, because that is when... the rewards to the saints are handed out, and not before.
Secondly, in Rev.5 it shows the many redeemed sing a "new song", which is the same "new song" the 144,000 of Rev.14 will sing while with Jesus standing on Mount Sion (Zion), which means on earth, in Jerusalem, for that is where Jesus is returning and when He gathers His Church. So all that is a FUTURE FORWARD VIEW, not proof of a pre-trib rapture.
No rapture happens at Rev.4:1. That kind of idea has to be added to that Scripture. Isaiah's vision and Paul's vision were slightly different circumstances, because at one time Apostle Paul was stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). In both instances though, it was their spirit that was shown the vision of the heavenly. They did not die.
More than likely, they are the faithful of the OT that were slaughtered for God too. But none of that has anything to do with a pre-trib rapture.
Again, there is no such thing written in God's Word as 'Church Ages'. The seven Messeges Jesus gave the seven Churchs in Asia represent warnings and admonitions, as only two Churches He had no rebuke for. Look at those seven Messages and compare to one's Church today; that's what they are for. The candlesticks John saw are the seven Churches Rev.1 says. John saw the candlesticks in Heaven. Jesus warned one of the Churches He would remove their candlestick out of its place if they didn't repent. A Church Age doctrine of men tries to destroy the heavenly pattern Jesus has for the seven Churches.
No such thing as pre-trib's idea of "tribulation saints". Indeed there may be some that come to Jesus during the tribulation, but that doctrine is taught it's about the unbelieving Jews with the Church already raptured to Heaven. In reality, Christ's Church will be here on earth through... the tribulation. And that's why the apostasy of 2 Thess.2:3-4 will happen, many being deceived by the coming Antichrist there. At Rev.16:15, on the 6th Vial Jesus is still... warning His Church that He comes "as a thief". So His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church still is not yet until the 7th Vial.
Like others said, per 1 Thess.4, the raising of the dead happens first, and Jesus brings those alseep saints with Him when He comes. And also at that time, the Church that's still alive on earth are "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" and "caught up" to Him with them, and all go to Jerusalem, Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from (Zechariah 14).
baberean2,
1. We have already been over this.
Paul was agonizing over the whole nation of Israel because he knew God had not forgotten his chosen people Israel the nation and their gifts and callings in the KoH reign on earth.
2. Hosea has to take a harlot for a wife because of Israel’s whoredoms and are backslidden from God.
Gomer bore Jezreel who would avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jesus and would cause to cease the Kingdom of the house of Israel.
Gomer’s daughter was named Lo-ru-ha-mah for God will have mercy on the house of Israel and utterly take them away but will have mercy on Judah.
The next son was Lo-am-mi for ye are not my people and I will not be your God.
Verse 10 is the setting of Israel being as the sand of the sea where and when they would be called the sons of the living God.
Verse 11 has the children of Judah and Israel appointed as one head.
and shall come up out of the land for great shall be the day of Jezreel which is Armageddon.
So Hosea is not talking about spiritual Israel as you believe to be the church of today.
3. Israel will not be God’s children for awhile but will be in the end.
4. Paul is using a comparison about who were called not of the Jews only but Gentiles?
Gentiles were not calledin Hosea and had no covenants etc.
So your spiritual Israel theory is not in this context like you keep trying to show. Jerry kelso
Christ's Church will be here on earth through... the tribulation.
Agreed that the messages to the 7 churches are for churches of today as well.The seven Messeges Jesus gave the seven Churchs in Asia represent warnings and admonitions, as only two Churches He had no rebuke for. Look at those seven Messages and compare to one's Church today; that's what they are for. The candlesticks John saw are the seven Churches Rev.1 says. John saw the candlesticks in Heaven. Jesus warned one of the Churches He would remove their candlestick out of its place if they didn't repent.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 say clearly that the caught up and gathering the RAPIEMUR is TIED TO THE COMING OF THE LORD IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR -----Guess what? Jesus will appear in the AIR in Revelation 19:11-21 ...riberra,
1. That is your opinion but merely disagreeing doesn’t debunk what the scriptures say in the context given.
You are piecemealing everything together but that takes the scripture out of context for the Resurrection of the Dead, the mystery of the rapture, the true purpose of the tribulation and ignores the truth of today being the time to learn about ruling and reigning.
The gates of hell shall never prevail against the true church and they will be raptured before the tribulation. The professing church will go through the tribulation.
2. The nature of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Revelation 19:7-21 are completely different.
The Old Testament saints knew about the Day of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead only. They knew nothing about the rapture and why not?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 say clearly that the caught up and gathering the RAPIEMUR is TIED TO THE COMING OF THE LORD IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR -----Guess what? Jesus will appear in the AIR in Revelation 19:11-21 ...
The mystery of the rapiemur is that the believers alive and REMAIN and the believers resurrected will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air TO WHERE JESUS WILL BE AT HIS COMING ..