Bible verses on Annihilation?
- Thread starter DW1980
- Start date
- Mar 17, 2015
- 17,184
- 9,196
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Very long lived if not immortal. But not saying whether destroyable.
Upvote
0
- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,502
- 7,861
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18 says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcase will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.
This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).
Upvote
0
GUANO
Well-Known Member
- Jul 3, 2013
- 739
- 324
- 40
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
Great observations and points in this post.
"Annihilationism" cannot be married to the concept of an afterlife at all, it is incompatible--though you will find many who use the language "the soul is annihilated" they are simply not understanding their own supposed logic...
The ancients did not understand the concept of 'heaven' and 'hell' the way we do today, from a Pagan Greek and Roman mindset. The early Hebrews, and indeed, all of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures did not believe in an afterlife at all. They actually believed in death--that it was real. Whenever the bible talks about "Heaven", it's not talking about some 'place' that one can 'travel to' or that one can 'dwell'...
Afterlife, or to be more specific, consciousness after bodily death is not compatible with scripture at all. For starters, it's not compatible with the very earliest doctrines established in Genesis, namely:
1) "God breathed the breath of life into man, and man because a living soul"
* This means that Body + Spirit (Life: the state of breathing) = Soul. Soul is a "Living Creature", it is not some metaphysical aspect of your consciousness, it's simply a breathing body.
2) "..you will surely die"
* This means that any 'living creature' that sins shall die. If you are conscious after 'death', you are not dead. Christ came to conquer death, if death wasn't a real thing, why a Messiah?
The picture in the last chapter of the Bible seems clear that, even after the Millennium, after the Great White Throne (final) Judgement, there are still sinners alive and well and are able to enter the "city" any time they so choose... I'll try to take the time to actually argue some of the scriptures that people use to push physical hell, I've spent a lot of time on the subject. The arguments seem to all be centered on semantics---people just don't seem to understand figurative language and the more primitive and ancient, the more figurative the language. To sum-up, Sheol/Hades/Hell is the state of a) a low estate in life (poor, destitute)--- b) emotional/mental conviction (a "burning conscience")--- c) After death, your memory is held in contempt by society at large.
Upvote
0
- Mar 16, 2004
- 22,024
- 7,364
- 60
- Faith
- Calvinist
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
You are comparing the tribulation saints described in Revelation 7, to the eternal state in Revelation 22 where there is no Temple. Revelation 7 is after the seals and before the Trumpets, Vials and the Millennial Kingdom. You do know that a lot happened in that space of time?
Grace and peace,
Mark
The resurrection hasn't happened yet, since they are separated from their bodies they have no need of food and in no danger of exposure. After the 1000 year reign of Christ it says there will be no need of a sun because God will be their light, not that there will be no sun. They will return to a pristine earth, after the resurrection and want for nothing, never to suffer bodily discomforts of any kind again.
Grace and peace,
Mark
Upvote
0
- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,502
- 7,861
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
I believe the wicked will eventually be destroyed (or turned to ashes and or lifeless corpses in the Lake of Fire) after the Judgment. The wicked will one day be no more.
As for whether souls go to some kind of spirit world:
Well, Jesus said to the thief on the cross,
"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43).
(Note: Some believers suggest that the comma should be after the words "to day"; But I do not believe God's Word has any errors or mistakes in it).
Jesus (the Eternal Living Word) preached to the wicked souls who perished in the global flood in the heart of the Earth while his body was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights,
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20).
The souls of them who are slain for the Word of God cry out under the altar for vengeance and they were given white robes,
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
(Revelation 6:9-11).
There are armies in heaven that followed Jesus upon white horses.
13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Revelation 19:13-14).
(Note: These armies are obviously saints).
When Lazarus died, he was carried off to Abraham's bosom by angels; And when the Rich-man died, he awakened to find himself in torments and Abraham far away with Lazarus in his bosom,
19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:9-31).
(Note: Yes, I realize that you will probably write this off as a parable; But nowhere is this called a parable. Besides, none of Jesus's parables were ever based off of something that could not happen in the real world; Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by making a parallel with the real world).
Jesus says that he goes to prepare a place (mansion) for us, and He says that where He is, there may we be also.
2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:2-3).
We see Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah (after a transfiguration on the Mountain):
1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." (Matthew 17:1-3).
Side Note:
I believe that faithful saints who die in the Lord today go to Abraham's bosom (or Paradise) in the heart of the Earth. After the Pre-Trib Rapture, the saints who die in the Lord from that point will then go directly to Heaven. For in the Rapture, the dead in Christ will rise first. Where are they rising from? Abraham's bosom! The wicked who die today go to hades or hell, but it is not a torture chamber in Earthly like flames that would make them scream uncontrollably. For the Rich-man was not screaming. I believe this is the result of the fact that the Rich-man was being tormented by the heat of the flame in the great gulf between him and or Abraham and or the flames nearby him; Or it was because the flames that he was in were not like our real world flames that would cause such an extreme amount of pain. I also believe that the wicked go through long periods of sleep and they are awakened for special reasons, etc.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,502
- 7,861
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
Yeah, it sounded good at first, but I have now scrapped the idea.
Thank you for pointing things out for me.
Upvote
0
Monna
Well-Known Member
About "immortal" angels:
Hebrews 1:7 can be interpreted to mean quite the opposite - that they are rather ephemeral. Both "winds" and "flames" are relatively short-lived as individual entities. It would not surprise me to learn that God creates a "new" angel/spirit to do a single task and nothing more. Puff! a wind-born tongue of fire to convey a message to a person at a particular moment in life. God can do as He likes.
MSG
Regarding angels he says, The messengers are winds, the servants are tongues of fire.
CJB
Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says, “. . . who makes his angels winds and his servants fiery flames”
RSV
Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire.”
There are some individual angels that make several appearances in the scriptures (Gabriel, who appeared to Daniel and Mary; Michael, who "contended" for the body of Moses, is mentioned in Daniel as "your prince," in Jude, and in Revelation), and the image given in Daniel calls angels princes linked to nations - e,g, the prince of the kingdom of Persia (Dan 10:13). These specific cases don't necessarily mean that all angels are immortal. And I'm still looking/asking for any scriptural evidence that these spirit-beings are "created immortal." If the Devil is destroyed, he is hardly immortal.
Hebrews 1:7 can be interpreted to mean quite the opposite - that they are rather ephemeral. Both "winds" and "flames" are relatively short-lived as individual entities. It would not surprise me to learn that God creates a "new" angel/spirit to do a single task and nothing more. Puff! a wind-born tongue of fire to convey a message to a person at a particular moment in life. God can do as He likes.
MSG
Regarding angels he says, The messengers are winds, the servants are tongues of fire.
CJB
Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says, “. . . who makes his angels winds and his servants fiery flames”
RSV
Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire.”
There are some individual angels that make several appearances in the scriptures (Gabriel, who appeared to Daniel and Mary; Michael, who "contended" for the body of Moses, is mentioned in Daniel as "your prince," in Jude, and in Revelation), and the image given in Daniel calls angels princes linked to nations - e,g, the prince of the kingdom of Persia (Dan 10:13). These specific cases don't necessarily mean that all angels are immortal. And I'm still looking/asking for any scriptural evidence that these spirit-beings are "created immortal." If the Devil is destroyed, he is hardly immortal.
Upvote
0
- Dec 13, 2015
- 5,254
- 4,227
- 37
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Calvinist
- Marital Status
- Married
That's really interesting. I thought that angels would be created to be immortal like God originally created man and woman to be immortal. I wasn't aware that there were verses in scripture that said the opposite. And you're also right that Satan fell just like man fell. Therefore if he was originally created immortal he could have lost his immortality when he fell. He's been able to live ever since he fell 6k+ years more than any human has lived. Just interesting either way.
Upvote
0
- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,578
- 6,064
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,578
- 6,064
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Then in the NT we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death a person having eyes and a tongue suffering in flames, speaking.18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Luke 16:19
(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16:22
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23-24
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16:22
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23-24
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Upvote
0
- Dec 12, 2017
- 521
- 547
- 44
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Engaged
- Politics
- UK - SNP
This is one verse that interests me.
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV)
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life. (NLT)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (ESV)
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life. (NLT)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (ESV)
I had always thought that the two parallels were "eternal" and "punishment/life". If I am understanding you, there's one parallel and one contrast. This is an interesting view, thanks - going to study this some more
Upvote
0
- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,578
- 6,064
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
When we read this verse we will understand it through our 21st century assumptions/presuppositions. How did the 1st century Jews, Jesus was talking to, understand it?
.....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died; old, young, men, women, children, infants. They knew that death was permanent and punishment had nothing to do with it.
Mark 12:18
(18) Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
Luke 20:27
(27) Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
(18) Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
Luke 20:27
(27) Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment."
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment."
Upvote
0
GUANO
Well-Known Member
- Jul 3, 2013
- 739
- 324
- 40
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
The "King of Babylon" that the scriptures above are referring, not only to the king in Babylon at the time, but to a spiritual being---that same "Babylon" mentioned in Revelation. It is a glimpse of the Great White Throne Judgement. That great spirit of 'Babylon', who is associated with the "Beast", is to become mortal (having an end of it's lifespan) and cast into the lake of fire.
In the parable about the beggar taken to Abraham's bosom...
Spirits are principals. They're not creatures or persons who can "carry" any one or any thing any where... Spirits are emotions, ideas, principles, concepts, and other 'forces' which influence the behavior of individuals and groups. Jesus is speaking a parable. Why is this parable "literal" but the others are not? In the other parables of Jesus (and prophetic orations from other authors of scripture), the "earth" represents the people therein and the condition of the earth represents the spiritual condition of the people (rocky, weeds, barren, fertile, etc.)... The underworld, with it's various 'chasms' is underneath and inside the people and is figuratively ruled by terrestrial spirits that are associated with animals such as the 'serpent'... But at the end of the day, these 'beings' exist within the mind/heart/spirit/psyche. The core principle of the parable is: once you're dead, there is no more going "back"... There is an 'impassable separation' between the state of the saved dead, and the convicted dead. The saved dead cannot effect the state of the convicted dead. I believe the whole thing is figurative. How can a dead person experience anything? You can't see without eyes, hear without ears, process language into a cognitive thought-form without a brain... etc...
Upvote
0
- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,578
- 6,064
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
I certainly thank you for this imaginative interpretation of scripture. This seems to be a common ploy of contentious unscriptural later theological systems, whenever scripture as written contradicts one's biblical assumptions/presuppositions simply dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative. That way one can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to. There are a bunch of heterodox groups around doing that very thing. LDS, JW, WWCG, OP, UPCI etc.
.....How did the first century Jews that Jesus was addressing understand the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Why is it that none of this fanciful speculation is ever explained anywhere in the Bible? All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Apr 7, 2012
- 8,932
- 768
- 62
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Hi
I am curious about how people who support annihilation rather than an eternal conscious hell read the Bible. For example, a pastor of a Church I used to attend said while he believed in a conscious eternal hell, it was possible to read the Bible in a way that supported annihilation. I am curious about this.
There are a few threads on this already but a lot contain things like "I don't think that God would...". It would be good if we could keep this to the Bible with just brief explanations of relevant verses.
There is a reason I am asking this, I'll explain - my dad was not a Christian when he died. Obviously I don't like the idea of my dad burning in hell for eternity - but I do trust God, I know He will do the right thing. I don't believe hell is literal fire, but I do think it is eternal and conscious. That said, annihilation seems kinder (by human standards) and I know some Christians do believe that. I'd like to understand how you get to that from the Bible, especially if you're an Evangelical Christian who holds that view.
- If you believe that hell is not a place of conscious punishment, what verses in the Bible teach this?
- How do you understand verses that do seem to teach eternal conscious punishment?
Thanks
Hi DW1980,
I hold the view of annihilation and have studied it extensively. It is what the Bible teaches. Eternal Conscious Torment is not taught in the Scriptures. It is "inferred" from a few misunderstood passages. It's also based on the unbiblical doctrine of the "immortal Soul". When writing to Timothy Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. That means that only the Father is immortal. People are not immortal. The Scriptures say that eternal life is given to the Believer, not the unbeliever. Paul also said, 'the wages of sin is death." God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. The idea that eternal conscious torment is based on the idea that man is some sort of immaterial being that can exist apart from the body. However, this is not from the Bible but rather from Greek philosophy. In Gen. 2 Moses recorded that God created man from the dust of the earth. That means that man is a physical being, not an immaterial being. He recorded that God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. A soul is a physical being. The spirit in man is God's breath or spirit of life. After Adam sinned God told him, 'dust you are and to dust you shall return.'
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)
Notice that God said "dust thou art". God said that Adam was dust and that he would return to dust. The only way anything lives is because God is giving it live. Paul said that God gives life. He used the present tense. He didn't say God gave life. In Job we find it recorded that if God was to retrieve His breath or spirit all flesh would die. That tells us that God is continually giving life to all things. And that all things require His breath or spirit to live. Apart from God's breath or spirit man is not a living soul. We find in Ecclesiastes that when a man dies the breath of spirit returns to God and man returns to the dust. There are plenty of verses in the Scriptures that speak of the dead and their state. David in the Psalms said the dead know nothing, that they cannot praise God, that at death their thoughts perish. Paul when writing to the Corinthians said about Christians who had died, if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. He didn't say they were with God, or with Jesus, or anywhere else. The only hope Paul holds out for dead believers is the resurrection. There is quite a lot on this subject in the Scriptures and I can give you some very good teaching on this subject that is great depth and detail if you'd like.
Upvote
0
Monna
Well-Known Member
I don't wish to comment directly on the issue of eternal torment vs annihilation as I haven't come to an unwavering conclusions yet. But on other aspects of this discussion.
I find your comments, Der Alter, very interesting. First, it is important to try to learn how people at any particular time in history understood things - in this case how Jesus' audience understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man. We learn a lot from understanding their perspectives. However, if there is one further thing we learn from this, it is that these perspectives were not necessarily correct. We know this from the fact that the disciples seemed incapable of accepting that the Messiah should die; and even after the resurrection, until Paul's vision between Athens and Corinth, saw the crucifixion as a major mistake that God had to correct, rather than a planned and deliberate offering to God for the remission of sins.
Furthermore, Jesus used metaphors and similes frequently in teaching the people. When he said "the kingdom of heaven in like ...." it was clear to everyone that he was speaking metaphorically. In other cases he simply told a story "A man went out to sow seed..." and his inner core of disciples wondered what the point of the story was. He had to explain it clearly to them, saying also that he taught this way so that the people "having ears to hear, still would not understand." Old Testament Jews were convinced that God had his "abode" in Zion, and in the Temple in particular. It seems that it was first in the Babylonian captivity that they fully grasped the fact that J--H was everywhere - in spite of prophetic poetry (in the Psalms) that had already pointed this out. Jesus made it clear to the Samaritan lady that "places" do not confine God to either Samaria or Jerusalem, that God is Spirit and we must worship him in spirit (and in truth). But this didn't stop Jesus telling his closest disciples "In my Father's house are many rooms. I go to prepare a place for you."
And who would have dared to publicly declare that Jonas, that very reluctant prophet, in the very act of disobedience and fleeing from God, then in his 'repentance' and 'burial' in the fish's belly were symbolic of the Messiah's own death and resurrection? This would surely have fit into your category of "imaginative interpretation of scripture." Hebrews is full of examples in which the OT was to be interpreted figuratively and metaphorically. And this definitely required someone to use their imagination. How many other examples that we have not been told of, did Jesus give to the pair on the road to Emmaus, when he apparently showed from Moses and through all the prophets, that the Messiah must die and rise again? How many specific examples can we show from the OT that clearly predict the the death and resurrection of the Messiah? Certainly the scribes and the Pharisees didn't have a clue, and the Sadducees didn't even accept the possibility of the resurrection. (That's why they were Sad, you see?
)As to Butch5, not many people reading the scriptures, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus, would agree that these are nothing more than "inferals." It is one thing to take up all the scriptures that support the view of annihilation, full honesty requires that a convincing explanation of all those scriptures that are used to support everylasting conscious torment. Including Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. What does the scripture actually mean "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10) I once asked a JW what this mean. After a few minutes deep thought he said "whatever it means, it does not mean for ever and ever."
And for me there is a further question. If godly people who have studied the scriptures longer and more deeply than I am likely ever to achieve arrive at such opposite views, and if the sciptures are supposed to present "the truth" why is such a question so unclear or disputed? (Obviously, it is not to either of you, as you have already made up your respective minds - I'm sure you would say, 'through much prayer and meditation and study' but you apparently disagree.) I am left with possibly two alternatives: one - we shouldn't put so much emphasis on the after-world, slipping thereby into the sin of Egypt - but rather on bringing the kingdom of God to reality in the here and now, as in the prayer Jesus taught us; two - (simply a different angle of the first, really) it is left unclear for the same reason Jesus told parables ... a challenge to our commitment to gaining insight into what is important, a distraction for those all too willing to get caught up in divisive issues, or to leave the door open to use the fear of eternal torture as a tool to "win souls for Christ."
I may never make up my mind about the issue. It shouldn't matter to me. What should matter to me is to trust God to do (and judge) rightly, to seek his kingdom and his righteousness first and foremost in my daily walk here and now. But thank you both for presentation of the basis for your views. God bless.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Dec 12, 2017
- 521
- 547
- 44
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Engaged
- Politics
- UK - SNP
And for me there is a further question. If godly people who have studied the scriptures longer and more deeply than I am likely ever to achieve arrive at such opposite views, and if the sciptures are supposed to present "the truth" why is such a question so unclear or disputed? (Obviously, it is not to either of you, as you have already made up your respective minds - I'm sure you would say, 'through much prayer and meditation and study' but you apparently disagree.) I am left with possibly two alternatives: one - we shouldn't put so much emphasis on the after-world, slipping thereby into the sin of Egypt - but rather on bringing the kingdom of God to reality in the here and now, as in the prayer Jesus taught us; two - (simply a different angle of the first, really) it is left unclear for the same reason Jesus told parables ... a challenge to our commitment to gaining insight into what is important, a distraction for those all too willing to get caught up in divisive issues, or to leave the door open to use the fear of eternal torture as a tool to "win souls for Christ."
I may never make up my mind about the issue. It shouldn't matter to me. What should matter to me is to trust God to do (and judge) rightly, to seek his kingdom and his righteousness first and foremost in my daily walk here and now. But thank you both for presentation of the basis for your views. God bless.
I broadly agree with you, but as I said in the OP, this is a personal issue for me. I want to know whether my dad is or will suffer eternal conscious torment. Like you, I do trust God to do the right thing, and I know one day I will know and be at peace about this, but, it's something I am struggling with now. :-(
Upvote
0
- Dec 12, 2017
- 521
- 547
- 44
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Engaged
- Politics
- UK - SNP
Yes please, I would be interested in how you got to this.
Some of this sounds like what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe (we don't have an immortal soul, for example)? How do you understand Jesus' teaching that the body and soul are separate?
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
If the soul was physical, then if someone kills a person, they would be killing the soul. But Jesus said we can't do that. I also don't think I would agree that those who have died in Christ are not with God. Otherwise why would Paul have said:
“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9 NIV)
Thanks
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
GUANO
Well-Known Member
- Jul 3, 2013
- 739
- 324
- 40
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
I believe a literal interpretation of this parable requires a lot more faith and 'imagination' than I have.
If you take this parable literally then you must also believe the earth is a flat disc, covered by a solid dome held up by great pillars, and that above the solid dome is salt water. Hades is literally under the ground and people are in there, alive, being both burned and slowly devoured by worms in perpetuity. That's quite disturbing to me to think of how you can rectify that with the rest of Scripture.
I have no doubt that many early Christians and Jews were superstitious---nothing wrong with pure, innocent, faith. If it helps your faith to believe that God like a big person that lives in the sky and watches over us, then go for it! Me, my faith or conscience doesn't grant me that privilege.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
