If salvation was always by grace...

Lady Bug said:

Why would Jesus have to come and die on the cross then, if people in the OT were already saved by grace through "faith in Christ"?

I feel like I shouldn't even be asking this, that I should know already.

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The people in the OT were not saved. They may have had hope for a messiah, but the New Testament is very clear that the Old Covenant did not save.

This is also emphasized when Christ is crucified he goes down into sheol for 3 days to minister to the souls of those shut in.

Lady Bug said:

Why would Jesus have to come and die on the cross then, if people in the OT were already saved by grace through "faith in Christ"?

I feel like I shouldn't even be asking this, that I should know already.

Click to expand...

Hello Stranger

Many do not understand the OLD COVENANT and how it relates to the NEW. Some mix up SHADOWS that point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation with that which is eternal.

It is in the SHADOW laws for remission of SIN from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT (SIN offereings) that pointed to JESUS that people in the OLD COVENANT looked to the future of the coming Messiah (Jesus) who is the true lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29)

In the NEW COVENANT we look back to the sacrifice of Christ in the OLD they looked forward. Only the process was different.

All in both the OLD and the NEW COVENANT were saved in exactly the same way and that is by GRACE through FAITH as a gift of God (read HEBREWS 11)

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello Stranger

Many do not understand the OLD COVENANT and how it relates to the NEW. Some mix up SHADOWS that point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation with that which is eternal.

It is in the SHADOW laws for remission of SIN from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT (SIN offereings) that pointed to JESUS that people in the OLD COVENANT looked to the future of the coming Messiah (Jesus)

In the NEW COVENANT we look back to the sacrifice of Christ in the OLD they looked forward. Only the process was different.

All in both the OLD and the NEW COVENANT were saved in exactly the same way and that is by GRACE through FAITH (read HEBREWS 11)

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Hebrews only claims that the Elder's witnessed the truth.
However:
David is described as being in Sheol.

I think there were a few Jews that might have had enough faith to gain salvation (such as Abraham), but the majority relied on the law.

Hi lady Bug,

It's a very good question and I'm sure there is much written about this so you'll have to look into it in more detail. But this is my humble understanding .

As I understand it, the OT believers had faith in Jehovah God and their blood sacrifices were temporary and symbolic atonement in anticipation of the permanent completed sacrifice of our Lord. God accepted this temporary solution in faith but it was never meant to be suitable as the proper sacrifice. We know this because Hebrews 10:4 says "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Only the Lamb of God (Jesus) could take away the sins of the world but God credited the OT believers with that future sacrifice based on their faith.

Hope that helps.

P.S. Love your kitty picture

It was always about grace and God's omnipotence shows that. Jesus's family genealogy looks like the local jail roster, No one could ever keep the law. That is why Jesus came as the only perfect sin atonement, So it was by faith through grace as witnessed through Abraham all the way through us.
The OT looked forward, We look Back :]

Yes, the Mosaic covenant was salvic. But as Hebrews says, the blood of goats and bulls could not remove sins, only cover them over. To truly rid one of sin took the blood of Messiah.

But the salvation was in the covenant, not the expiation of sins.

So good to see you here, Lady bug!

This might help a bit further... Old versus new covenant
Basically...

In the first covenant God swears to provide Abram with an heir and tells him that the sign of the covenant shall be the stars in the sky which represent how numerous his descendents shall be.

Likewise, the new Covenant began at a passover meal, a very special passover meal we refer to as the Last Supper. Jesus becoming the unblemished sacrifice that provides the
nourishment of the meal, and spilling His blood so that no longer would it be
necessary for animals to be sacrificed to renew the covenant.

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Lady Bug said:

Why would Jesus have to come and die on the cross then, if people in the OT were already saved by grace through "faith in Christ"?

I feel like I shouldn't even be asking this, that I should know already.

Click to expand...

I think people in the Old Testament were saved by virtue of the fact that someday Jesus would die on the cross.

dreadnought said:

I think people in the Old Testament were saved by virtue of the fact that someday Jesus would die on the cross.

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I think the Jewish people have a different way of looking at life and what comes next. I found this article about salvation - How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

Lady Bug said:

Why would Jesus have to come and die on the cross then, if people in the OT were already saved by grace through "faith in Christ"?

I feel like I shouldn't even be asking this, that I should know already.

Click to expand...

Matthew 21:33-46 might give you the right idea, (and Ecclesiastes 7:10, FWIW).

Angeldove97 said:

I think the Jewish people have a different way of looking at life and what comes next. I found this article about salvation - How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

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I think we and the Jews worship the same God and that he loves us equally.

dreadnought said:

I think we and the Jews worship the same God and that he loves us equally.

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I'm not claiming anything different, however, I think if we are going to talk about the Jewish faith, we ought to hear what they believe.

Angeldove97 said:

I'm not claiming anything different, however, I think if we are going to talk about the Jewish faith, we ought to hear what they believe.

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I don't think it's necessary for the salvation of a Christian to know what Jews believe. I suspect they believe much as we do, but aren't convinced that Jesus is God in flesh.

dreadnought said:

I think we and the Jews worship the same God and that he loves us equally.

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This is true, that there is no partiality with God, but the breastplate of righteousness is what gives us boldness to approach the throne of grace, and there is a type teaching that Christians tend to promote a bit carelessly. That can lead to the impression that "no one is righteous, so therefore why even bother trying? - eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow we will die. God is good, He loves us so much He even sent His son to die to pay the price for our sin - past, present and future".

It is easy to get that impression from Christians who have already taken aboard to believe such things, and this is what the author of that article is primarily objecting to - although there are Christian scriptures that condemn that attitude too! (eg: Hebrews 10:26-31).

Righteousness is by definition "being morally justifiable" - meaning that repentance (obedient to what God is teaching us - Romans 12:2, John 15) is the key to righteousness and therefore the underlying factor of our confidence toward judgement (Romans 8:33, Isaiah 54:17).

That means that as long as we remain of good conscience (1 Peter 3:21), we have no doubt as to our moral justification, having perfect confidence toward salvation.

The author of that article makes valid points to this effect, however it is clear that he has taken a view of Christianity that does not reflect the authentic knowledge of Christianity, and it is probably true that this has been inspired in him by so-called Christians that themselves do not understand the key principle of it:

Christianity is in fact Judaism implemented under Jesus as everlasting High Priest (consider Matthew 21:43 and Hebrews 7:23-25, also Acts of the Apostles 15:19, esp. Acts of the Apostles 15:10).

Lady Bug said:

Why would Jesus have to come and die on the cross then, if people in the OT were already saved by grace through "faith in Christ"?

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Hi Lady Bug, the Bible tells us:


While God did not "remit" believers' sins from Adam to the Resurrection, He did choose to pass over the sins that were previously committed by them (IOW, He chose to wait to exact the just punishment for OT believers' sins until an acceptable atonement was finally made for them .. by His Son on the Cross).


Yours and His
David

promote a bit carelessly. That can lead to the impression that "no one is righteous, so therefore why even bother trying? - eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow we will die.


Is this observation a dig at that OSAS crowd of which I am a joyful member?

Lady Bug said:

I had no idea that this would be interpreted that way. The answer is a resounding no.

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Sorry , Lady Bug........I get this all the time so I’m super-sensitive these days, I suppose....God bless you

Lady Bug said:

Why would Jesus have to come and die on the cross then, if people in the OT were already saved by grace through "faith in Christ"?

I feel like I shouldn't even be asking this, that I should know already.

Click to expand...

In John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and was glad, so people in the OT were saved by grace through faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way were are. In Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was righteous because he was trained how to rightly live by grace and through faith he was careful to obey all of God's instructions. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Furthermore, verse 14 says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and if we believe that, then it should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20). So while people in the OT were saved by grace through faith, who Jesus is and what he was promised to accomplish is the object of that faith.