Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible

☦Marius☦ said:

Jews don't even have a Canon. What are you rambling about. Maccabees are excellent accounts btw

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Maccabees is full of historical inaccuracies, just beginning with Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

"... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.


2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.


3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.


28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet ...

Basil the Great said:

I just popped in and will not take the time to read this entire thread. I understand why praying to the dead is controversial, though I see both sides of the issue. However, it does trouble me that so many Christians are against praying for the dead. There is a big difference between the two traditions and there is nothing in Scripture which forbids us from praying for the dead.

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Yes there is:

Necro-Mancy is attempting to speak, pray to or for, contact the dead/deceased:


The dead can't talk, they got a mouth full of dirt.
They no longer can see, hear or know anything in the grave, returned unto the dust:
The pagan nations did that stuff, and still do it today, go to China or Asia in general, India, Africa, South America, Native America, they offer prayer to/for all ancestors:

genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

☦Marius☦ said:

Point?

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YOU are appearing to be following a teaching of the father of a lies. in that you never die. YOUr theology appears to teach that your body dies but not you. and that is what satan taught to Eve, that she was immortal, o
NLY GOD IS IMMORTAL

BIBLE TEACHES SOUL SLEEP TILL THE RESURRECTION AT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.

The7thColporteur said:

Yes there is:

Necro-Mancy is attempting to speak, pray to or for, contact the dead/deceased:

Deuteronomy 18:11 KJB - Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.​

Isaiah 8:19 KJB - And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
​

The dead can't talk, they got a mouth full of dirt.

Proverbs 20:17 KJB - Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
​

They no longer can see, hear or know anything in the grave, returned unto the dust:

Job 14:21 KJB - His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJB - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJB - Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJB - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalms 115:17 KJB - The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 3:13 KJB - For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

Job 3:14 KJB - With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;

Job 3:15 KJB - Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

Job 3:16 KJB - Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

Job 3:17 KJB - There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

Job 3:18 KJB - There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

Job 3:19 KJB - The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
​

The pagan nations did that stuff, and still do it today, go to China or Asia in general, India, Africa, South America, Native America, they offer prayer to/for all ancestors:

Deuteronomy 18:9 KJB - When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.​

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Actually necromancy is trying to communicate with spirits. We don't. We ask them to pray for us, we don't ask for a conversation. Completely different then summoning. Don't even try to approach this topic because I used to be into the hermetic arts and I know what I am talking about.

Not only that but most of the verses you provided were before the Crucifixion, and therefore not even relevant. As for the ones in Ecclesiastes, it is talking about the unsaved dead. Why is this so hard to understand?

Original Happy Camper said:

genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:



YOU are appearing to be following a teaching of the father of a lies. in that you never die. YOUr theology appears to teach that your body dies but not you. and that is what satan taught to Eve, that she was immortal, o
NLY GOD IS IMMORTAL

BIBLE TEACHES SOUL SLEEP TILL THE RESURRECTION AT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.

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Yes everything that you disagree with is Satanic. Satan told Eve should wouldn't physically die if she ate the fruit. We all physically die. We are talking about the resurrection of the Spirit here. That verse isn't even relevant.

☦Marius☦ said:

Your description of monks is downright inaccurate and frankly offensive. Go look up something on Orthodox monks before you go making accusations about men I garuntee are more pious then you. Monks on MT Athos pray more than 8 hours a day standing, fast year round, work the rest of the day, and barely sleep when they aren't praising God in the liturgy. They are also entirely self sufficient. Unless you can say the same I'll ask you to kindly keep your offensive bigotry to yourself.

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Yea, I don't think so, as monasticism always leads to corruption within, and iconography will always lower the concept of God's character, into base idolatry [hence an "image"], and please read again, what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:6, in its context [labour wasn't painting icons, standing for 8 hours [wasted time], counting their fasting as holiness, barely any time for sleep, no time to think and dwell upon God's actual words, endlessly mumbling vain repetitions]:

http://roadsandkingdoms.com/2014/the-grumpy-monks/

A LETTER FROM A GREEK ORTHODOX PRIEST

Sex and fraud woe for Greek church

The7thColporteur said:

Maccabees is full of historical inaccuracies, just beginning with Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

"... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.

a) Location: Persia - 6:5
b) Place: in bed - 6:8
c) Cause: dies from a broken spirit due to military
reversals - 6:8, 9
d) People involved: friends - 6:10, Philip - 6:14
e) Dies: 6:16
f) Text: 1 Mac. 6:14 - 16​

14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, whom he made ruler over his realm.

15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.​

2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.

a) Location: Persia - 1:13
b) Place: the temple of the goddess Nanea during his
wedding - 1:13 - 15
c) Cause: crushed to death by stones hurled down from
the ceiling and then dismembered - 1:16
d) People involved: Antiochus' attendants & the priests
of Nanea who kill him - 1:15
e) Dies: 1:16
f) Text: 2 Mac. 1:14 - 16​

14 For Antiochus, as though he would marry her, came into the place, and his friends that were with him, to receive money in the name of a dowery.

15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entered with a small company into the compass of the temple, they shut the temple as soon as Antiochus was come in:

16 and opening a privy door of the roof, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and struck down the captain, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.​

3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.

a) Location: the road to Jerusalem - 9:3 - 7
b) Place: on a mountain road - 9:8, 28
c) Cause:

1. God's curse on him - 9:5
2. He falls from his chariot - 9:7
3. worms eat him & his skin rots off - 9:9, 10​

d) People involved: his chariot driver, his army - 9:4, 9
e) Dies: 9:28
f) In this account he repents and becomes a Jew and
then writes a letter of peace to the Jews.
g) Text: 2 Mac. 9:28​

28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet ...

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Actually the book is considered historically accurate. However you are correct in that Antiochus dies three separate times. The second one you mention is acknowledged as probably false news the writer heard and recorded, the third is clearly a folk story because of its similarities to harod's downfall. Don't know about the other but I do know that book is accurate enough to even be used by secular scholars as reliable.

The7thColporteur said:

Yea, I don't think so, as monasticism always leads to corruption within, and iconography will always lower the concept of God's character, into base idolatry [hence an "image"], and please read again, what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:6, in its context [labour wasn't painting icons, standing for 8 hours [wasted time]]:

http://roadsandkingdoms.com/2014/the-grumpy-monks/

A LETTER FROM A GREEK ORTHODOX PRIEST

Sex and fraud woe for Greek church

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I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. The second article is written by someone who claims theological debate is wasted time, and the third is about church corruption which- surprise surprise, exists.

Monasticism always leads to corruption within huh? Is that why monks are often healers, or given foresight, or the ability of prayer of the heart? Why sometimes their faces shine with light and their bodies remain uncorrupt after death?

I realize all those "pointless rituals" might mean nothing to some of you, but for me 8 hours of prayer and song to God is time not wasted. You are clearly someone who thinks yourself higher then anyone since you so readily judge men who are ready to give up the world in order to live a life of constant prayer. Had you ever actually been in one of these monasteries you would know.

And since we don't represent the unincarnate God in iconography specifically so we don't lower his unrepresentable holy being. Christ was however incarnate as a human. So unless you think looking at Christ would lower his power, then it is no different to look at a representation of him.

What I've found debating protestants such as yourselves is that you don't just disagree with Apostolic positions, you also think yourself better than everyone who disagrees with you. We are all just "sheep", and sinful at that *gasp*. We can't all be the perfect likeness of yourself. Even monks sin, that's why they put so much effort into trying not to.

☦Marius☦ said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove....

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For one, I am not speaking about individual persons. I am speaking about the system, and yet even so, this is off OP, and I am going back to it.

The7thColporteur said:

For one, I am not speaking about individual persons. I am speaking about the system, and yet even so, this is off OP, and I am going back to it.

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You can't say you aren't speaking about individual when you say it always leads to corruption within. That's about as personal as it gets.

Either way it is a sladerous lie.

☦Marius☦ said:

I should note that the physical resurrection did not occur until the third day, and that the ascension is of both of Christ's natures.

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Jesus fulfilled scriopture:


It says "Lord". A person is "brought to the grave" and they "shall remain in the tomb", until their resurrection. They who die 'go' nowhere, except to the grave.

☦Marius☦ said:

You can't say you aren't speaking about individual when you say it always leads to corruption within. That's about as personal as it gets.

Either way it is a sladerous lie.

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Sigh. I didn't say they were all evil. I said it always leads to corruption within [I also never stated quantity].

☦Marius☦ said:

The physical resurrection. You forget that there were some physically resurrected immediately after Christ's crucifixion. This verse is clarifying the difference.

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I forgot no such thing, as demosntrated in numerous places, go back and look at point 7 under the Thief on the Cross post, I will requote in part:


Enoch and Elijah both translated into their glorified bodies, without seeing death, taken to Heaven.

Moses died, was specially resurrected by Jesus, given a glorified body and taken to Heaven.

The firstfruits, who were all dead and in their graves, until they were specially resurrected by Jesus, and later taken to Heaven in glorified bodies.

Those are the only exceptions of humanity being in Heaven presently. All else are in their graves or alive upon the earth:

"How many resurrections are recorded in Scripture?"

The Answer:

Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's Son - 1 Kings 17:17-24;

Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman - 2 Kings 4:18-37;

A man and Elisha's Bones - 2 Kings 13:20-21;

The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army - Ezekiel 37:1-14;

Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's Son - Luke 7:11-17;

Jesus raises Jairus's Daughter - Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56;

Jesus raises Lazarus - John 11:1-47;

Peter raises Tabitha/Dorcas - Acts 9:36-42;

Paul raises Eutychus - Acts 20:9-12;

*Some think that Paul himself was also raised, after his stoning, but the context shows that Paul was simply gravely injured in that instance, and not dead.

The Son of God/Michael/Jesus raises Moses - Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9;

Select Group, First Fruits Resurrection, around the locality of Jerusalem at the time of Jesus own - Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8;

Jesus' own Resurrection - Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, &c;

Special Resurrection to come, before the Great First Resurrection - Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13, &c;

First great resurrection of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory, raised - 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; -- All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels, the "reapers", with Him -- Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7;

The Second Great Resurrection of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints, then immortal, descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20; -- John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a;

There are many other verses to consider on resurrection in general, such as Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22, &c.

Then there are other verses, like these which are related, such as Matthew 8:22; Luke 9:60, &c.

The7thColporteur said:

Jesus fulfilled scriopture:

Job 21:32 KJB - Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Matthew 28:6 KJB - He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.​

It says "Lord". A person is "brought to the grave" and they "shall remain in the tomb", until their resurrection. They who die 'go' nowhere, except to the grave.

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Once again quoting the Old Testament. In the time of Job there was no immediate resurrection as Christ was not yet resurrected.

archer75 said:

Well, as has been said, we ask the saints for their help - by praying for us.

In the OC, we say that to deny images is to deny the Incarnation. You can make an image of what's visible.

Images of saints are images of those in whom the image of Christ is seen clearly. In a sense, an image of a saint is an image of an image of Christ.

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may we venerate a mirror then?

DamianWarS said:

may we venerate a mirror then?

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I can't tell of you think you actually scored a point with this or not.

No is the answer. There are specific canons involving icons.

☦Marius☦ said:

I can't tell of you think you actually scored a point with this or not.

No is the answer. There are specific canons involving icons.

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I am guessing this wouldn't qualify? :



Also, could you please ask leadership in "O", to stop painting an adult Jesus coming out a big "yoni" = () ? I mean, seriously, you think that's religious and holy?

The7thColporteur said:

I am guessing this wouldn't qualify? :

Also, could you please ask leadership in "O", to stop painting an adult Jesus coming out a big "yoni" = () ? I mean, seriously, you think that's religious and holy?

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Not sure what you are referring to in that last bit.

The7thColporteur said:

Umm, because they who wrote them, were generally Jews [Matthew, Mark, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude] who followed God

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The ones you named were Christians. Former Jews.

☦Marius☦ said:

Not sure what you are referring to in that last bit.

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Look up the word "yoni" = (); just google it.