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Explain. Are you indicating we have a spirit which can leave the body?
Have you read anything I have said on this subject?
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Explain. Are you indicating we have a spirit which can leave the body?
Is Jesus using fiction to teach? No he is not. He always taught within the understanding of the audience. The audience would recognize the two places for those deceased.
Jesus even confirms to the criminal on the cross next to Him he would be in Paradise (bosom of Abraham) that very day.
Luke 23: NKJV
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Please forgive me if I mistook your comments.
I concluded from your posts we would not be present with the Lord upon death and before the resurrection.
To clarify, what is present with the Lord? The spirit as opposed to soul?
Thanks. I mistook your position as the soul sleep of the SDA and JWs. Thanks for the repost. You are using "spirit" in the same fashion as historic Christians use "soul."Redlegedhunter, I post this again for your reading enjoyment.
Here is my take on the questions about the Soul, which I asked in the OP
.
The use of the word (SOUL) in the Old Testament refers to the Physical Fleshly Body of man, which has been animated by the "Breath of Life" thus becoming a Living Soul.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Notice,
1) The verse only speaks of the Physical aspect of man becoming alive,
2) The verse does not speak of the Spiritual side of man in the same manor, because the Spirit which was Breathed into the man, is Life.
The (Breath of Life) which is the Spirit of man, was breathed into the Physical Being (after having been formed of the dust of the ground).
The Spirit of the man is what keeps it alive, the Spirit can live outside of the man, but when the Spirit leaves the man the (Body, Flesh, Soul) dies.
The Soul is the combining of both the Body (Flesh) + Breath (Spirit), there is no SOUL unless both are present.
The Soul does not exist by itself, apart from the Body.
In the end of it all, I guess what I am saying is, the SOUL cannot die as such, because it is not a separate entity which can die, it only exists in conjunction with the (Body, Flesh) of man.
Did He?
Luke 23
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" -- said on resurrection Sunday
The point was made indeed. My point is Jesus did not teach something new about the afterlife the audience did not already understand or believe.It was a story, it was not true, Jesus had a point to make to them of that time, and he did, even when they didn't understand it the point was made.
Thanks. I mistook your position as the soul sleep of the SDA and JWs. Thanks for the repost. You are using "spirit" in the same fashion as historic Christians use "soul."
Which would still be the dichotomist view.
What confused me was your use of spirit which is usually differentiated by trichotomists with both the body and soul.
The point was made indeed. My point is Jesus did not teach something new about the afterlife the audience did not already understand or believe.
The bosom of Abraham or Gan Eden was known by the audience in Luke 16. Also a place of suffering.
The below is not to debate the definition of soul but to show the audience was familiar with what Jesus spoke of.
Luke 16:22 John Gill:
and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham; as when the mother of the seven sons, slain by Caesar, saw her youngest going to be sacrificed F16
``she fell upon him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and said unto him, my son, (Mkyba Mhrba lua Kl) , "go to Abraham, your father", and tell him, thus saith my mother''
and sometimes, as here, by being in his bosom. So it is said F17, that Eliezer his servant (Abraham's, the same name with Lazarus) (wqyxb hnwm) , "is laid in his bosom": and which may refer to the account in the Talmud F18, that when R. Benaah, the painter of caves, came to the cave of Abraham, he found Eliezer, the servant of Abraham, (hymq yaqd) , "standing before him". And it is also said
``into which no man can enter but the righteous, whose souls are "carried" thither, (aykalm dyb) , "in the hand", or "by the means" of angels.''
And elsewhere they say F21,
``with the Shekinah come three ministering angels to receive the soul of a righteous man.''
Particularly it is said of Moses, at the time of his death F23, that
``the holy blessed God descended from the highest heavens, to take the soul of Moses, and three ministering angels with him.''
And sometimes they say F24, not only three angels, but three companies of angels attend at such a time: their words are these;
``when a righteous man departs out of the world, three companies of ministering angels meet him; one says to him, "come in peace"; and another says, "walking in his uprightness" and the other says, "he shall enter into peace"''
Luke 16:22 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
Are you saying the Spirit and the Soul are synonyms?
don't need one!Can you show me which English translation has no comma before "today?"