THE SOUL: What is it?

hedrick

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Mat 10:28 has traditionally become involved in discussions about the nature of life after death. Unfortunately it isn't as clear as some people think it is.

Minimally, it distinguishes between our mortal body and our whole existence.

It has commonly been understood, however, as speaking of a distinction between our body and our immortal soul. But this isn't stated, and is challenged by the statement that God can kill both in Gehenna.

I would suggest a less specific understanding, that Jesus is distinguishing between a mortal existence and something larger, without saying specifically what it is.

The Logos commentary on Matthew says "The persecutors may kill the body, but only God has power over the soul and thus the whole person." (The Hermeneia commentary is similar)
 
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redleghunter

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This verse speaks of the Physical BODY.
The Body is the outside Physical shell and not the Soul of man.
The verses clearly show the separation. Paul is speaking of physical death and when that happens he would be present with the Lord.

These verses speak of the Flesh, which is in this case the Physical Body

The Flesh is Body, unless understood to be speaking of the flesh where sin resides.
Not the Soul of man.
Again, no, Paul speaks of remaining in the body to continue the ministry but if he dies he is with the Lord.

With both of these verses you are basically ignoring the "present with the Lord."

If we reside in the dust as some argue then does not that bring Christ down to the dust? As Paul is quite clear after these bodies die we are present with the Lord.

Call it what you want, the you, the me is present with the Lord when our mortal bodies reach "room temperature."

The level of what some call consciousness is quite debatable, but the presence is not.

These verses speak of the inner and outer man.
Sounds as though Paul is speaking of the Inner man as the New Creation in Christ, and the Outer man as the Old man which has died with his passions and lusts.

Again not the Soul of man.
Again no, Paul makes the distinction the outer man is perishing (ongoing) not the old nature. The only part of us perishing as sealed believers is the corruptible body. Thus he is making another distinction.
 
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redleghunter

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I found these passages very similar.
Notice the 2 witnesses lay dead for more than 3 days just as Lazarus did in John 11.
And just as Lazarus is taken up to the bosom of Abraham, so the 2 witnesses are taken up to heaven without being buried. Pretty awsome.............

Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

John 11:39 Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone. Is saying to Him, Martha, the sister of the one having deceased "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to great Voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"


Luke 16:22 Yet became to be dying the poor-one, and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was buried.


Reve 11:9 And are observing out of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations the body/*s of them days three and half-equal and the bodies of them not they suffer to be placed into tomb.
11 And after the three days and half-equal a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....
One has nothing to do with the other. The two witnesses are taken up bodily.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man neither is taken up bodily.
 
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redleghunter

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The Soul is not a separate entity unto itself, it does not exist by itself in the same way we understand the Body, Flesh and Spirit do.
Explain. Are you indicating we have a spirit which can leave the body?
 
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redleghunter

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The story about the Rich man and Lazarus is only that, a story, a way of telling the Jews, about Himself and His Resurrection

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In essence, the story is a Prophecy, which would be fulfilled very shortly.
Is Jesus using fiction to teach? No he is not. He always taught within the understanding of the audience. The audience would recognize the two places for those deceased.

Jesus even confirms to the criminal on the cross next to Him he would be in Paradise (bosom of Abraham) that very day.

Luke 23: NKJV

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
 
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redleghunter

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The soul is always "the person".

But the "person" has a body and that body can die - return to dust while in fact the soul survives -

But the soul that does not have a body is in a dormant state as 1 Thess 4 points out. It can only "act" or have consciousness - when it has a body.

A person who gets their legs blown off in war is not 'half a person" they are a whole person but they have a body that is missing legs.

For the record - not text claims that you have an "immortal soul" -- that is man-made-tradition.

What you have is a soul that survives the first death in a dormant state - just as 1 Thess 4 points out.
Where's the presence of this dormant state?
 
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redleghunter

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Gen 2:7
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

There's your definition. Kill the body or take away the breath and you have a dead soul. Man IS a soul. Man does not have a soul. In most cases, where the word soul appears, it can be replaced with life or person or creature, as when when the word for an animal is soul, like in Gen 1:21

Plato rears his ugly head again.
Why did Paul think he would be present with the Lord when his body died?

Why did Christ promise the criminal next to Him he would be in Paradise that day?
 
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BobRyan

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Why did Christ promise the criminal next to Him he would be in Paradise that day?

Did He?

Luke 23
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" -- said on resurrection Sunday
 
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redleghunter

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Did He?

Luke 23
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" -- said on resurrection Sunday
Today meant that day.

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Matthew 27:50)
 
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BobRyan

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Why did Christ promise the criminal next to Him he would be in Paradise that day?

Did He?

Luke 23
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" -- said on resurrection Sunday

Today meant that day.

But not "in paradise today" -- rather "I say to you today"
 
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redleghunter

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Paul never said "I will be present with the Lord when I die"
Indeed he did. Unless one wants to wrest the Scriptures.

If we are absent from the body that means we are no longer there. That would be our physical death. As we see in verse 1 of chapter 5 "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed..."

Paul the goes on to show his desire for his earthly tent to be shed for his resurrected body. The resurrection is always the message as our final deliverance and glorification. Yet he speaks of being present with the Lord upon death.

6"So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."


He clarified in Philippians 1:

Philippians 1: NKJV

21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
 
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redleghunter

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But not "in paradise today" -- rather "I say to you today"
No translation in English supports your view.

As you present it, I think the dude dying next to Jesus knew it was today and since he and Jesus were bleeding and suffocating together, Jesus was not going to tell him another day other than "today."

It makes absolutely no sense in any language.
 
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JIMINZ

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Again, no, Paul speaks of remaining in the body to continue the ministry but if he dies he is with the Lord.

With both of these verses you are basically ignoring the "present with the Lord."

If we reside in the dust as some argue then does not that bring Christ down to the dust? As Paul is quite clear after these bodies die we are present with the Lord.

Call it what you want, the you, the me is present with the Lord when our mortal bodies reach "room temperature."

The level of what some call consciousness is quite debatable, but the presence is not.

Again, at this point in the discussion I have no argument with what you say.

My point is with the SOUL as opposed to the Body (Flesh), Spirit.

What you have posted here does not speak to that.
 
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redleghunter

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So what is your point, I have never said any different.
Please forgive me if I mistook your comments.

I concluded from your posts we would not be present with the Lord upon death and before the resurrection.
 
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redleghunter

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Again, at this point in the discussion I have no argument with what you say.

My point is with the SOUL as opposed to the Body (Flesh), Spirit.

What you have posted here does not speak to that.
To clarify, what is present with the Lord? The spirit as opposed to soul?
 
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JIMINZ

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Again no, Paul makes the distinction the outer man is perishing (ongoing) not the old nature. The only part of us perishing as sealed believers is the corruptible body. Thus he is making another distinction.

Again, at this point in the discussion I have no argument with what you say.

My point is with the SOUL as opposed to the Body (Flesh), Spirit.

What you have posted here, does not make any connection with the Soul.
 
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