7th Trumpet Rapture?

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,

1. Revelation 1:1-3 God gave the Revelation of his son to his servants what would come to pass and sent and signified it by his servant John.
John bore record of all these things including the testimony of Jesus.
The church is blessed to read and keep the things written there in, for the time is at hand.
John’s address is to the 7 Churches Of Asia from Jesus Christ the faithful witness to the church being participants of the kingdom vs.4-6.
Verse 7 is on the Day of the Lord which is the goal of the book concerning the ending of the 7 year tribulation.
Verse 8 has Christ speaking; I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, Smith the Lord, which is, which was and which is to come, the almighty. This is Christ.

2 John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. This covers from starting to write the vision he saw of the candlesticks, through the churches to when he is caught up into Heaven Revelation 4:1.
Verse 2 he is immediately in the spirit where the throne was and one that sat on the throne.
It is true when Christ went back to Heaven he sat on the right hand of the father but he also was and is our mediator at the mercy seat which is a different location than the throne.

3. Revelation 5:1; And I saw in the right hand that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with 7 seals.
The angel goes on to proclaim the question who is worthy to open the seals and they couldn’t find no one until one of the elders spoke up and said; Weep not: behold the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seals thereof.
The long and short of it is that he wasn’t on the throne otherwise they would haven’t been searching for him.
No scripture says that he has to sit on the right hand of the Father all the time and your reasoning doesn’t follow the narrative.
Jerry kelso

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I know you think you are correct here. That is OK. I think you are mistaken. In the end, you will see that I had it right all along.

These are minor points. The more important thing is to be ready for His pretrib coming.

iamlamad said:

And the church age post-cedes this passage. You also wrote, "This is why the historical theory is wrong."

Please carefully note John did NOT write, "Come up hither and I will shew thee ONLY things which must come pass hereafter."

In other words, John was free to include historic events at the Spirit led him - and he did. You just have not understood. Another example of an historic event is chapter 12, the first five verses - speaking of when Christ was born.

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iamlamad,

1. The only historical events were the conditions of the church.

2. Revelation 12 is not a historical context for John had already seen Christ born, crucified, and risen.
It is prophetic and in real time in the middle of the 7th trumpet days when Israel will flee into the wilderness.
Jesus is not the man child for his life on earth as Messiah was finished before the 7th head which is crowned. The devil will be in control till the 7th head is crowned vs 3.
History shows that Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media- Persia, Greece, and Rome we’re past persecutors of Israel.
The 7th will be the Revised Roman Empire who the antichrist is of the seventh and of the eighth which is the Antichrist Kingdom Revelation 17:10-11.
The 144,00 are the manchild and they are future.
If you want to use the historical context of Jesus to reference the great confrontation against Satan is fine. But in actual fulfillment the historical context cannot be fulfilled in the future context. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,

1. The only historical events were the conditions of the church.

2. Revelation 12 is not a historical context for John had already seen Christ born, crucified, and risen.
It is prophetic and in real time in the middle of the 7th trumpet days when Israel will flee into the wilderness.
Jesus is not the man child for his life on earth as Messiah was finished before the 7th head which is crowned. The devil will be in control till the 7th head is crowned vs 3.
History shows that Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media- Persia, Greece, and Rome we’re past persecutors of Israel.
The 7th will be the Revised Roman Empire who the antichrist is of the seventh and of the eighth which is the Antichrist Kingdom Revelation 17:10-11.
The 144,00 are the manchild and they are future.
If you want to use the historical context of Jesus to reference the great confrontation against Satan is fine. But in actual fulfillment the historical context cannot be fulfilled in the future context. Jerry kelso

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How funny! John was YOUNGER that Jesus, so could have known nothing about Christ's birth unless it was taught to him.

I think every commentator in existence says Jesus is the man-child. but you can disagree if you want.

The 144,000 are HEBREWS, not the manchild. You are believing things that cannot be backed up by scripture. However, they do come from the "woman" who is Israel. Revelation 12 is all about the dragan. God was introducing John to the dragon, and specifically what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. The dragon is mentioned 32 times. However, God CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID, when Jesus was born. Those first five verses where a "history lesson" for John. He was not alive when Herod slew all those babies and kids under two years.

iamlamad said:

I know you think you are correct here. That is OK. I think you are mistaken. In the end, you will see that I had it right all along.

These are minor points. The more important thing is to be ready for His pretrib coming.

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iamlamad,
What are minor points and yes we need to be ready for the pre trib rapture. Jerry kelso

iamlamad said:

How funny! John was YOUNGER that Jesus, so could have known nothing about Christ's birth unless it was taught to him.

I think every commentator in existence says Jesus is the man-child. but you can disagree if you want.

The 144,000 are HEBREWS, not the manchild. You are believing things that cannot be backed up by scripture. However, they do come from the "woman" who is Israel. Revelation 12 is all about the dragan. God was introducing John to the dragon, and specifically what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. The dragon is mentioned 32 times. However, God CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID, when Jesus was born. Those first five verses where a "history lesson" for John. He was not alive when Herod slew all those babies and kids under two years.

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iamlamad,

1 Sorry for the wrong reference of John didn’t talk about his birth for Mary knew his birth.
Mary brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of: and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne.

2. Most people do believe Jesus is the man child but majority is not always right.
Revelation 1:19 is the time factor for the book and chapter 4 On is Future fulfilled.

3. Revelation 12 is still in the days of the 7th trumpet and the dragon is fixing to turn his power, seat, and authority over to the beast Revelation 13:1-2 and this is why his ten horns are crowned.

4. The 144,000 are Jews Revelation 7:1-8. They are protected through the trumpet judgements 9:4.
The dragon goes after them and cannot catch them for they are raptured to Heaven verse 5.
In verse 12 when Satan and his angels were kicked out of Heaven never to accuse The brethren before the throne they are cast out of Heaven he goes after the woman who gave forth the manchild.
Satan goes after the woman and she goes into the wilderness to be preserved.
The serpent goes after the woman and can’t kill her.
V17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and WENT TO MAKE WAR WITH THE REMNANT OF HER SEED, WHICH KEEPETH THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.
The remnant of her seed denoted a birth which was the smaller company out of the larger company and they were the 1444,00 Jews.

5. Revelation 14:1-5 have the 144,00 are upon the Heavenly Mt. Zion.
They are the firstfruits of unto God and the lamb v 4.
They were redeemed from the earth and from among men. When ? As the man child in chapter 12 Of Revelation.
It is all future in fulfillment.
Jerry kelso

iamlamad said:

The truth is, John and the Holy Spirit begin right where John was, 95 AD, and chronologically proceeds from that time right to the end of this age and beyond. But in doing that, sometimes includes historic events to arrange the setting for what he wants to talk about.

For example, God wanted to introduce the scroll or book to us, since it is a very important document - the 6000 year lease document for planet earth. It is the document that will END Satan's rule on planet earth. But God wanted us to know this document was sealed by 7 seals, and only a certain person could ever be worthy to break these seals. I am convinced it was someone who defeated death on their own power. I am further conviced that Satan figured NO ONE would ever be able to defeat death and come up out of hell. In 4000 years no one ever did.

Since God wanted to show us this sealed document, He began in the beginning with the book in the right hand of the Father. And that part was certainly history. Perhaps He has held this document since Adam's fall.

Therefore, my friend, it is your timing that is off.

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iamlamad,

1. Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The plan being before hand was historical in the mind of God but was not fulfilled for men till the Cross which was future.
Your understand and timing is both. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

The 3rd time factor is and the things which shall be hereafter which is after the church is raptured.

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The things which shall be hereafter ....concerns the things to happen after the things which are ..

jerry kelso said:

The timing for the book is found in Revelation 1:19.

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Revelation 1:19
19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest,:
the 7 candlesticks ....voice as a trumpet saying write what you saw Revelation 1.

and the things which are,:
the address about a judgment of God to happen soon upon the 7 Churches in existence in the time of John ... Revelation 2 ...Revelation 3 .

and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
Things to happen until the Coming of Jesus in Glory Revelation 6 through Revelation 19:21
The first 5 seals cover the great lines of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 about Wars and Rumors of wars ... Natural disasters ...Epidemics ---Famines .... Christians martyrs ....Gospel preached upon the Earth,
still in action as we speak .

The 6Th seal have obviously not been opened....only in John's vision we have a glimpse of what will happen when the 6Th seal will be opened.

Riberra said:

The things which shall be hereafter ....concerns the things to happen after the things which are ..


Revelation 1:19
19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest,:
the 7 candlesticks ....voice as a trumpet saying write what you saw Revelation 1.

and the things which are,:
the address about a judgment of God to happen soon upon the 7 Churches in existence in the time of John ... Revelation 2 ...Revelation 3 .

and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
Things to happen until the Coming of Jesus in Glory Revelation 6 through Revelation 19:21
The first 5 seals cover the great lines of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 about Wars and Rumors of wars ... Natural disasters ...Epidemics ---Famines .... Christians martyrs ....Gospel preached upon the Earth,
still in action as we speak .

The 6Th seal have obviously not been opened....only in John's vision we have a glimpse of what will happen when the 6Th seal will be opened.

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riberra,

1. The vision of Christ in the middle of the candlesticks is what John saw Revelation 1:12-16.

2. The things are present in John’s day is the churches of Asia Revelation 2-3.

3. Things hereafter are after the Church age Revelation 4:1-19:20.

4. The seals start out the last week of Daniel’s 70th week which is the last 7 Years Daniel 9:27. He breaks it in the middle of the week Daniel 9:27; and stands in the holy place and claims himself God in the temple which is the AOD 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 11:1.

5. The 1st 5 seals are not the beginning of sorrows.
The 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are:
White horse rider; the Antichrist who has a bow and a crown was given to him and he went forth conquering and to conquer.
Red horse rider; power was given to him to take peace from the earth and that they should kill each other and there was given to him a great sword.
Third seal; a black horse had a pair of balances and a measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny deals with famine; and see thou hurt not the oil and wine.
The fourth seal is the pale horse where hell follows death and power was given to him over a fourth part of the earth. To kill with sword, hunger, death and with the beasts of the earth.
The Fifth seal are the souls under the altar who are martyred and have to wait for their brethren to be killed Revelation 13:7; 15:1-2; 20:4.
I understand the similarities but they are generalizations and are not the role of the Antichrist coming to power which is in the context of Revelation 6.
So none of the seals have been opened yet and they are not the beginning of sorrows.

6. The 6th seal is the beginning of the Wrath of the Lamb Revelation 6:16-17.
This is different than the Wrath of God which is not poured out till the 7 vials are poured out in the last part of the 7 Years which is only on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.

7. As far as the judgement in the churches were because of those who spiritually don’t overcome.
There is no historical proof of the churches going through a scenario of the tribulation of Revelation 6-19.

No matter how one interprets the historical churches ending with 70 A. D. It is not biblical for there was no parousia or the restoration of all things afterwards.
Also, the Revelation is a prophecy and must continue till the church is over and raptured to Heaven.
This is why we are looking for the blessed hope Titus 2:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
1 Thessalonians 5:9; For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
V10; who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

8. 2 Timothy 2:12; If we suffer we shall reign. This is the present sufferings for our probation time not the future tribulation and time of Jacob’s trouble. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,
What are minor points and yes we need to be ready for the pre trib rapture. Jerry kelso

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If we are ready, Jesus comes, and we are escorted to heaven, what difference will it make then if the 1st seal was in 32 AD or just before the 70th week? We won't care!

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,

2. Most people do believe Jesus is the man child but majority is not always right.
Revelation 1:19 is the time factor for the book and chapter 4 On is Future fulfilled.
Jerry kelso

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Please note, John did NOT say:
19 Write ONLY the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

The Holy Spirit was then clear to add other things, which He did.
If John had written this word "Only" your point would be made. However, that word was not written. Indeed, John DID write what he saw, things that were in his day, and things in his future. But the Holy Spirit chose to add other things.

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,

3. Revelation 12 is still in the days of the 7th trumpet and the dragon is fixing to turn his power, seat, and authority over to the beast Revelation 13:1-2 and this is why his ten horns are crowned.
Jerry kelso

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I agree, the fleeing of 12:6 will be only seconds after the abomination. And the war in heaven will be simultaneous also.

However, the 7th trumpet does not sound for days, so don't say it like that. You could write, "Revelation 12 is right after the 7th trumpet..."

God has never spoke to me about the crowns. I have never studied them. I personally think these ten hours represent the ten kings who have no kingdom "yet" but will join in with the Beast for "one hour."

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,

4. The 144,000 are Jews Revelation 7:1-8. They are protected through the trumpet judgements 9:4.
The dragon goes after them and cannot catch them for they are raptured to Heaven verse 5.
In verse 12 when Satan and his angels were kicked out of Heaven never to accuse The brethren before the throne they are cast out of Heaven he goes after the woman who gave forth the manchild.
Satan goes after the woman and she goes into the wilderness to be preserved.
The serpent goes after the woman and can’t kill her.
V17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and WENT TO MAKE WAR WITH THE REMNANT OF HER SEED, WHICH KEEPETH THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.
The remnant of her seed denoted a birth which was the smaller company out of the larger company and they were the 1444,00 Jews.
Jerry kelso

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Agreed on the 144,000, except I don't know that the dragon goes after them. I just know they end up in heaven shortly after the midpoint.

When He "goes after the woman" he is going after those that fled when they saw the abomination. But they will be supernaturally protected and he will not get them! "The woman" in my mind, will be ONLY those that flee. I doubt if this will be all the descendants of Jacob that are in Jerusalem and the surrounding area.

I disagree on the remnant: the 144,000 would be a part of "the woman" since they are from the tribes of Israel. No, the remnant are those who missed the rapture, got left behind, and then became serious with Jesus. John wrote "remnant" because the main load went out at the pretrib rapture. I would not be surprised if we find the 144.000 will be raptured right at the midpoint. We really don't know exactly when, because John does not specify. All we know is that by chapter 14, they are already in heaven. I don't think chapter 14 is very long after the midpoint anyway.

iamlamad said:

If we are ready, Jesus comes, and we are escorted to heaven, what difference will it make then if the 1st seal was in 32 AD or just before the 70th week? We won't care!

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iamlamad,

1. As I have said before this subject is not one of contention. We are to occupy until he comes and be ready at all times including right now.
This subject will not bother one’s salvation necessarily, but how one interprets eschatology can determine their hermeneutics and how they interpret the rest of the word of God whether correctly or incorrectly. Jerry kels

jerry kelso said:

The seals start out the last week of Daniel’s 70th week which is the last 7 Years Daniel 9:27. He breaks it in the middle of the week Daniel 9:27

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

The fact that the Gospel went first to the Jews is confirmed by the verses below.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom_2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

Below Dr. Al Garza reveals the Hebrew grammar of Daniel 9:27.

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iamlamad said:

Please note, John did NOT say:
19 Write ONLY the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

The Holy Spirit was then clear to add other things, which He did.
If John had written this word "Only" your point would be made. However, that word was not written. Indeed, John DID write what he saw, things that were in his day, and things in his future. But the Holy Spirit chose to add other things.

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iamlamad,

Revelation 1:19 The things he saw only cover what he saw before that which was the vision of Christ in the candlesticks. This is in context and precedes into the churches as the the things that are.
That is common sense of correct biblical logic and not your open ended logic to include other things in Chapter 1 or whatever it is you think the Holy Spirit said. Don’t you believe in correct context or context at all.
So the word only doesn’t have to be there at all because it covers the context. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

The fact that the Gospel went first to the Jews is confirmed by the verses below.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom_2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

Below Dr. Al Garza reveals the Hebrew grammar of Daniel 9:27.

.

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baberean2,

1. Matthew 10:5-7 is Old Testament days and the Jews were God’s chosen people were to be the light of the world ((proselytizing Gentiles into Judaism, but they were backslidden and out out of covenant and had to repent Matthew 4:17.
Matthew 10 was also to the Jews only because it was the KoH and the KoG message.
They had to repent as a nation in order to receive the KoH reign on earth.

2. Paul was zealous of the law more than the others. When he got saved he did start with the Jews until they would not listen Acts 28 and then he went to the Gentiles who would listen and be grafted in to make the Jewsish nation jealous for God Roman’s 11.

3. No one is arguing that the gospel of the KoH and KoG or that the New Covenant was not first presented to the Jews for the mystery of the church didn’t come to fruition till Peter was given the vision of the clean and unclean.
I don’t have time to watch the video right now. What is your point which I sure I know but don’t have time right now till lunch.

4. I am back from lunch and I listened to the video.
The translations are all about the people of the prince that shall come including the Complete Jewish Bible for sure and the Hebrews names Bible I believe.
Christ didn’t make a one week covenant at Calvary which is actually 7 years condusive to the context of the Jews end time reconciliation in Daniel 9:24.
Christ died and arose then on the third day.
Dr, al Garza the Orthodox Jew is wrong. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

No one is arguing that the gospel of the KoH and KoG or that the New Covenant was not first presented to the Jews for the mystery of the church didn’t come to fruition till Peter was given the vision of the clean and unclean.

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Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Once again, what you are claiming does not match up to what we find in the Bible.

The "Church" is made up of believers of all races, who have placed their faith in Christ.


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jerry kelso said:

3. No one is arguing that the gospel of the KoH and KoG or that the New Covenant was not first presented to the Jews for the mystery of the church didn’t come to fruition till Peter was given the vision of the clean and unclean.

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The church is not a Gentile church.

Hank77 said:

The church is not a Gentile church.

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Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

It is mostly a Gentile church.

jerry kelso said:

iamlamad,

Revelation 1:19 The things he saw only cover what he saw before that which was the vision of Christ in the candlesticks. This is in context and precedes into the churches as the the things that are.
That is common sense of correct biblical logic and not your open ended logic to include other things in Chapter 1 or whatever it is you think the Holy Spirit said. Don’t you believe in correct context or context at all.
So the word only doesn’t have to be there at all because it covers the context. Jerry kelso

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God is God and can write anything He wants! And it truth, He did.

I have been telling you that you pull the first seal out of its context, but you still don't get it. OF COURSE I believe in context. But when John wrote, "After these things" he was using that phrase as a transitional phrase to tell the readers he was on another subject. He does this I believe 6 times in Revelation, each time to show a transition to another subject.

You want to LIMIT God to the future from Rev. 4 on. But did you consider this had to make sense for those first readers in 95 AD? In their mind it would not be "after the church age" but more like "after 95 AD."

And in truth, Jesus show John some history as in WHEN Jesus took the book from the Father's hand and began breaking the seals. He did this AS SOON AS HE ASCENDED.

Of course if you imagine God limited Himself by what He said in Chapter 1, you will never see it.

Question: DID John write of what he "had seen"? Of course he did!
Did John write of things that "are" or were at his time? Of course he did.
Did John write of future events also? Of course he did. So John CERTAINLY fulfilled that verse.