Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

2Timothy2:15 · Apr 7, 2018

Tetra said:
How does that make sense, why be convicted over something which isn't sin. Further, if someone was convicted, why justify the action?

You do not think the Holy Spirit convicts people not to drink because of the following?

1. He wants to separate them for the work of the Lord
2. Prior abuse of alcohol
3. History of alcohol abuse in the family
4. Being drunk can destroy your testimony

Tetra · Apr 7, 2018

2Timothy2:15 said:
You do not think the Holy Spirit convicts people not to drink because of the following?

1. He wants to separate them for the work of the Lord
2. Prior abuse of alcohol
3. History of alcohol abuse in the family
4. Being drunk can destroy your testimony

I really don't feel comfortable saying what Holy Spirit does or does not do, and certainly not in regards to alcohol.

I don't know what #1 has to do with anything? As for the rest, I don't think anyone here is saying being drunk, or alcohol abuse is a good thing.

2Timothy2:15 · Apr 7, 2018

Tetra said:
I don't know what #1 has to do with anything? As for the rest, I don't think anyone here is saying being drunk, or alcohol abuse is a good thing.

I already said what it has to do based on a pattern in scripture.

1. The Nazarite vow was no alcohol period
2. Levite no alcohol period
3. John the Baptist NO alcohol
4. Qualifications for a Bishop is no alcohol

2Timothy2:15 · Apr 7, 2018

Tetra said:
I really don't feel comfortable saying what Holy Spirit does or does not do, and certainly not in regards to alcohol.

I feel totally comfortable saying the Holy Spirit convicts certain people not to ever drink. I can personally testify to it as the Holy Spirit has made if clear to me that he does not want me to drink, ever.

dogs4thewin · Apr 7, 2018

ChristIsSovereign said:
Because alcohol causes drunkenness, which is a social problem IMO.

You can drink and not get drunk. In fact, not only would the wine at the pass over HAVE to be alcoholic, but the Bible even says to drink a little wine. I know plenty of people who drink alcohol and do not get drunk it is possible and an easy thing to do. I drink alcohol VERY rarely and when I do I have never gotten drunk. I have family members ( including a decan and you know what I have NEVER seen Uncle P drunk. In fact, I did not even know he drank until I was old enough to drink with him, legally ( and yet we live on the same road, so it is not like I only see him every few months.

dogs4thewin · Apr 7, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I’ve thought about this a few times and something that I think makes sense is they didn’t have refrigerators so they couldn’t keep fruit juices very long without spoiling so perhaps wine was more popular because it last for long periods without spoiling and their water probably wasn’t the best tasting water.

thank you. Any Juice that was comsumed had to be alcoholic.

woobadooba · Apr 7, 2018

dogs4thewin said:
thank you. Any Juice that was costumed had to be alcoholic.

You would have to be drunk to think juice was "costumed". :help:

Just kidding with you. I know what you meant. :hug:

Deadworm · Apr 7, 2018

At Jewish weddings, inferior wine is saved until later, when the guests are semi-smashed and can no longer tell the difference between great and inferior wine. Jesus' miracle imlies that He approves of this practice!

"Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now (John 2:10)."

God's Word commands us to drink wine, so that the alcohol will numb our minds to the point where we forget our troubles:
"Give wine to those who are heavy of heart, and let them drink and forget their troubles and remember them no more (Proverbs 31:6-7)."

Paul commands us to drink wine in addition to water for health reasons (1 Timothy 5:23).

But if Jesus had access to bourbon, that would probably be his alcoholic beverage of choice.

woobadooba · Apr 7, 2018

Interestingly, Israelites were instructed to use tithe money to buy wine or strong drink.

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household," (Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV)

It seems reasonable to conclude that "strong drink" is more potent than wine. If it weren't, then why make a distinction? And if it were sinful to consume "strong drink", then why give the people instruction to purchase it if they so desired?

Radagast · Apr 7, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Alcohol poisons you right away. But your immune system can fight off it’s harmful effects.

Alcohol is not a "poison" and the immune system does not "fight it off." Alcohol is simply metabolised in the liver (at about 1/4 oz or 8 grams per hour). That's roughly an American standard drink every 2 hours:

Jason0047 said:
What does alcohol do to a piece of meat in a glass cup?

Yummmmmmmm. Steak and beer pie:

Radagast · Apr 7, 2018

2Timothy2:15 said:
4. Qualifications for a Bishop is no alcohol

Actually, it doesn't say that at all. In fact, Timothy is specifically told to drink alcohol (1 Timothy 5:23).

1 Timothy 3:3 says that bishops should not be "given to drunkenness" (μὴ πάροινον), not that they should abstain from alcohol completely.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 7, 2018

Tetra said:
This isn't scientifically accurate Jason. I didn't really want to argue to with you, but here we are.

Alcohol isn't technically a poison, it's just that it can "poison" you in specific quantities. Usually this is called alcohol intoxication. In this regard, water is the exact same as alcohol, and it's called water intoxication. Water intoxication - Wikipedia Alcohol (ethanol) doesn't "seek to dry things out", it's just that ethanol is miscible with water, and acts as a diuretic. You seem so focused on the "drying out" property of alcohol, but I don't know why? Can you explain why you're so focused on this drying out thing?

Our body can fight out the drying out effect that alcohol would have upon a dead piece of meat. But if you were to put alcohol in a glass and then put a dead piece of meat in there, the meat would dry out because of the alcohol. Our body has an immune and repair system to fight off things like the common cold, cigarette smoke, etc. So our internal organs would not dry up instantly because of this.

Here is a short write up on what alcohol does to you.

The digestive tract passes alcohol to the blood stream, which is why your brain can be affected. As your blood volume increases, your kidneys work to reduce the volume, but they take out whatever mix of liquids you've got. (Your liver works to metabolize the poisonous alcohol, which is why it gets damaged.) If I understand correctly, one of alcohol's properties in the blood is that it doesn't carry hemoglobin, the transporter for oxygen, so you're starving the system (and brain) of oxygen. As the liver finally begins to get rid of the alcohol, your blood volume will be reduced, probably challenging your heart muscle but lowering your O₂ level even more. In the morning, you're going to wake up (or after some hours, if you happen to stay awake, you'll find yourself to be) dehydrated, and with a massive headache from oxygen starvation (just like the folks who suffer from sleep apnea.)

You can counteract some of the dehydrating effect by drinking a large volume of water that will dilute the alcohol volume in your blood. Think in terms of multiple glasses of water for every alcoholic drink you had, although it still isn't going to flush it all out. And consider taking an aspirin, AlkaSeltzer or other remedy for the headache pain that's coming.

I'm not a doctor or medical student or biologist. I have lived long enough to have learned something about the topic.

Source:
https://www.quora.com/Do-alcoholic-...s-true-for-any-drink-e-g-beer-wine-or-whiskey

Would something healthy and good or a mild poison do the following to you?

Alcohol's effects upon the body:

2F5E00C200000578-3336722-Experts_warn_drinking_too_much_on_a_regular_basis_can_have_serio-a-1_1450712623767.jpg

In fact, if alcohol is not a mild poison then why are women who are pregnant advised not to take it? It's because it can harm the baby. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a healthy and nutritious good thing for your body.

I mean, why do you think bartenders say the following words?

mark kennedy · Apr 7, 2018

Tetra said:
So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Yes it was alcohol wine, at the wedding feast in Cana he made the 'better wine', which would have had a stronger alcohol content.

mark kennedy · Apr 7, 2018

Radagast said:
Actually, it doesn't say that at all. In fact, Timothy is specifically told to drink alcohol (1 Timothy 5:23).

1 Timothy 3:3 says that bishops should not be "given to drunkenness" (μὴ πάροινον), not that they should abstain from alcohol completely.

It was common to cut the water with wine, some places had some pretty bad water. Alcohol is known to aid digestion when drank in moderation and in some places in those days, drinking just water was probably a bad idea.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 7, 2018

Radagast said:
Actually, it doesn't say that at all. In fact, Timothy is specifically told to drink alcohol (1 Timothy 5:23).

1 Timothy 3:3 says that bishops should not be "given to drunkenness" (μὴ πάροινον), not that they should abstain from alcohol completely.

No. He is told to drink a LITTLE wine instead of only water.

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." (1 Timothy 5:23).

He was to either dilute the harmful effects of the water by putting a little wine into it or by drinking a little wine. It was for medical reasons. It was NOT for social reasons. He said it was for his stomach's sake and his often infirmities. So it was a medicine and not a social beverage.

Radagast · Apr 7, 2018

Jason0047 said:
If I understand correctly, one of alcohol's properties in the blood is that it doesn't carry hemoglobin, the transporter for oxygen

Neither does water, so no, you're not "starving the system (and brain) of oxygen."

Your scare campaign seems thin on actual facts.

Radagast · Apr 7, 2018

mark kennedy said:
It was common to cut the water with wine, some places had some pretty bad water.

Indeed. For similar reasons, people in medieval Europe drank a lot of beer.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 7, 2018

Radagast said:
Alcohol is not a "poison" and the immune system does not "fight it off." Alcohol is simply metabolised in the liver (at about 1/4 oz or 8 grams per hour). That's roughly an American standard drink every 2 hours:

Yummmmmmmm. Steak and beer pie:

If alcohol is not a poison than a mother who is pregnant could drink with no risk to her baby. So go right ahead and tell your family members who are pregnant to start drinking because alcohol in no way is a poison in any way.

RDKirk · Apr 7, 2018

*LILAC said:
If it wasn't wine (that usually does contain alcohol) then it would've been grape juice.

Unless Pasteurized (a modern technological technique) juice spoils...very quickly, even if refrigerated. Even if Pasteurized, grape juice spoils within days if not refrigerated.

Of course, in the first century, they had neither Pasteurization nor refrigeration. Their grape juice would have spoiled within a day or two of squeezing.

Grapes, moreover, are a seasonal crop. The grapes were harvested in Autumn.

Yet...they had wine for the Passover in April.

That was not grape juice, that was fermented wine...and there is no way to "ferment" fruit without developing alcohol.

RDKirk · Apr 7, 2018

JackRT said:
In biblical times wine was normally fermented to the maximum of about 16%. At that concentration the alcohol actually kills the yeast. Biblically this was called strong drink. However the wine was usually cut with water to bring down the alcohol content to 5% to 8%. Grape juice would only be available a few weeks a year during and just following harvest season. Beyond that time the wild yeasts would already be turning the juice into wine. Distillation of alcohol was not known until about the twelfth century. Among the common people the consumption of weak beer was actually more common than wine which was often reserved for special occasions.

In addition, that high level of alcohol could only be reached by leaving the grapes to become their very ripest on the vine.

However...leaving them so long would result in a smaller harvest for a number of reasons (such as insects, more grapes falling to the ground, et cetera).

That means the "best wine"--that with the highest alcohol content--would also be the most expensive wine.

Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

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