The resurrection, Why so little on appearances after?

Lulav · Apr 7, 2018

The resurrection, Why so little on appearances after?

I got to thinking, with a miracle like this and all those who were following him why wasn't there more recorded on this?

Yeshua was walking on the earth 30 day AFTER he died, I'd say even today that would be something to talk about!

I'm going to post passages surrounding this and ask questions, any you want to answer feel free but please do not go off topic.

Matthew 27-28

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Where are the records of this? I'm sure since the city was overflowing with Pilgrims that these people, these many people were seen by many, some may have even been recognized.

This many people resurrected at the same time or just after Yeshua, this would have not only made news in our day but also gone viral! Back then it should have been something that would have been the talk of the town, and not just the talk of Jerusalem but the Whole Roman Empire.

It would have traveled far and wide, merchants coming into the city for the festival would take this on the road with them after they left.

The Guard at the Tomb

62-66 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

The Chief Priests and Pharisees, all wanted to make sure that nothing happened to the body so that their justification for having him crucified would be valid. I'm sure they didn't want evidence of this coming to light but it wasn't just him, there were the other things, the curtain in the Temple, the earthquake the darkness, after all these things happened would they still be so concerned, more or less? And then there's the walking deceased, surely someone recognized someone?

Matthew 28

Were there two earthquakes or just one? (see Matthew 27 above)

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Now even though what happened was reported to the Chief Priests, what about him walking about for 30 days?

The Report of the Guards----11-15

Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Still being reported that his body was stolen? then how did his walking around afterwards NOT be reported?

That's all Matthew has to say, let's look at Mark in the next post.

Heber Book List · Apr 7, 2018

But we need to remember that all through his ministry time, no one recognised hiim - Judas had to point him out, and even those on the road to Emmaus didn't recognise him. Of course, we also know that Thomas had to run a physical check to be sure it really was Yeshua, and not an angel or some other person. Why did this problem exist?

Not off topic, but a slightly different slant - why does Paul, who wrote before the Gospels were written, include almost nothing about the resurrection, as such? It would have been valuable evidence of his own miraculous meeting with Yeshua; if Yeshua could rise from the dead, meeting with Paul looks like a very minor miracle.

Albion · Apr 7, 2018

Yes, even two of his closer disciples walked for miles with him down the road to Emmaus before they recognized him from his remarks. So, the idea that everyone in Jerusalem would have seen him to be Jesus of Nazareth, the most recent victim of a routine crucifixion, doesn't square with the Bible accounts.

Heber Book List · Apr 7, 2018

Albion said:
Yes, even two of his closer disciples walked for miles with him down the road to Emmaus before they recognized him from his remarks. So, the idea that everyone in Jerusalem would have seen him to be Jesus of Nazareth, the most recent victim of a routine crucifixion, doesn't square with the Bible accounts.

You are right, but I think the point Lulav is making is that although enough people saw him, as scripture says, what is 'missing' is any record of their responses to seeing him alive and walking about. Also, there is a difference between seeing and understanding, as the two on the road to Emmaus realised, if rather late in the day, in spite of Yeshua telling them everything; were they just so ignorant of scripture that they could hear the words they must have known, but not 'see' the true Speaker?

gadar perets · Apr 7, 2018

As for the resurrected saints, we are not told they were recognized, but only appeared to many. They were seen, but not necessarily recognized. Besides, these were most likely dead for a long time and never lived alongside those that were still alive. They could not have been recognized. I personally believe they were the first fruits of the spiritual barley harvest (Yeshua being the first of the first fruits of the spiritual barley harvest).

As for Yeshua being recognized after his resurrection, I do not believe he was seen by anyone other than believers in him.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you see me: because I live, you shall live also.

Albion · Apr 7, 2018

Heber Book List said:
You are right, but I think the point Lulav is making is that although enough people saw him, as scripture says, what is 'missing' is any record of their responses to seeing him alive and walking about.

This is true, but I don't attach any particular importance to that fact. The narrative is rather summary or concise at that point, when treating of any of his doings during that period leading up to the Ascension.

Lulav · Apr 7, 2018

I think that regarding those aforementioned incidents it was a 'mind over matter' kind of thing.

I see this everyday here at CF even. When you have a certain perception of something or belief, even with evidence in front of you you don't recognize it.

Yeshua even said when telling the parable of the rich man:

‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even though someone rises from the dead.’”

Now from the Gospel of Mark

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. 10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's funny how the Post resurrection accounts are so brief in Mark's rendition. But it's certainly interesting about the form he took when walking and talking to the disciples on the road from Emmaus.

"another form"

the Greek word used is the base of our word 'Morph'. This would explain why they didn't recognize him.

Just like Josephs brothers didn't recognize him,

1. Because they thought he was dead
2. Because he was in a different form, that of an Egyptian

Lulav · Apr 7, 2018

gadar perets said:
As for the resurrected saints, we are not told they were recognized, but only appeared to many. They were seen, but not necessarily recognized. Besides, these were most likely dead for a long time and never lived alongside those that were still alive. They could not have been recognized. I personally believe they were the first fruits of the spiritual barley harvest (Yeshua being the first of the first fruits of the spiritual barley harvest).

As for Yeshua being recognized after his resurrection, I do not believe he was seen by anyone other than believers in him.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you see me: because I live, you shall live also.

Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Paul says this In ! Corinthians 15:

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

and that he was seen of Cephas,
then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep
After that, he was seen of James;
then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

This doesn't match with the gospels accounts and he seems pretty sure he got the order right, not sure how he would know this but I think all the gospels say that it was the women he appeared to first.

Put in order of what he says were the appearances:

Cephas (Peter)
The Twelve
Five hundred at one time
James
All the Apostles
Paul

Another anomaly I see is that #2 he calls them the Twelve which were the chosen Apostles (at that time there were only 11) but in #5 he says 'All the Apostles'.

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

gadar perets · Apr 8, 2018

Lulav said:
Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Paul says this In ! Corinthians 15:

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

and that he was seen of Cephas,

then of the twelve:

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep

After that, he was seen of James;

then of all the apostles.

And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

This doesn't match with the gospels accounts and he seems pretty sure he got the order right, not sure how he would know this but I think all the gospels say that it was the women he appeared to first.

Put in order of what he says were the appearances:

Cephas (Peter)

The Twelve

Five hundred at one time

James

All the Apostles

Paul

Another anomaly I see is that #2 he calls them the Twelve which were the chosen Apostles (at that time there were only 11) but in #5 he says 'All the Apostles'.

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Perhaps Paul's intent was to only focus on the men that saw Yeshua. Also, all those in the list were believers. The world was not permitted to see Yeshua any more.

Lulav · Apr 9, 2018

gadar perets said:
Perhaps Paul's intent was to only focus on the men that saw Yeshua. Also, all those in the list were believers. The world was not permitted to see Yeshua any more.

That may answer one question but what about 'the twelve' and 'The Apostles'?

Heber Book List · Apr 9, 2018

Lulav said:
That may answer one question but what about 'the twelve' and 'The Apostles'?

Luke is not always as accurate as we often think he is.

AbbaLove · Apr 9, 2018

Lulav said:
Yeshua was walking on the earth 30 day AFTER he died, I'd say even today that would be something to talk about!

Actually 43 days after He died and 40 days from his Resurrection to His Ascension.

Lulav said:
I got to thinking, with a miracle like this and all those who were following Him why wasn't there more recorded on this?

Our belief in Yeshua is based on FAITH! As others have said He appeared to those who were Believers, so He wouldn't appear to those like the Pharisees and Sadducees that generally didn't believe in Moshiach Yeshua as Lord and Saviour.

tampasteve · Apr 9, 2018

Heber Book List said:
Not off topic, but a slightly different slant - why does Paul, who wrote before the Gospels were written, include almost nothing about the resurrection, as such? It would have been valuable evidence of his own miraculous meeting with Yeshua; if Yeshua could rise from the dead, meeting with Paul looks like a very minor miracle.

Would it though? The resurrection was not really a part of the original Jewish Messianic prophesy, so I am not sure that it would have figured much in Paul's story narrative. Alternatively or further, if it was taken as a base fact then he might not have mentioned it regardless. Most of Paul's writings are to specific people or churches on different matters, if the resurrection was not debated and was known among the believers as fact there might not be much reason to mention it in his writings.

AbbaLove · Apr 9, 2018

Lulav said:
That may answer one question but what about 'the twelve' and 'The Apostles'?

It was not Yeshua's purpose to parade Himself before thousands, and in so many words say, "See I told you so!"

Luke 24:36-49 CJB
36 They were still talking about it when — there He was, standing among them!
37 Startled and terrified, they thought they were seeing a ghost.
38 But He said to them, “Why are you so upset? Why are these doubts welling up inside you?
39 Look at my hands and my feet — it is I, Myself! Touch me and see — a ghost doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you can see I do.”
40 As He said this, He showed them His hands and feet.
41 While they were still unable to believe it for joy and stood there dumbfounded, He said to them, “Have you something here to eat?”
42 They gave Him a piece of broiled fish,
43 which He took and ate in their presence.
44 Yeshua said to them, “This is what I meant when I was still with you and told you that everything written about Me in the Torah of Moshe, the Prophets and the Psalms had to be fulfilled.”
45 Then He opened their minds, so that they could understand the Tanakh,
46 telling them, “Here is what it says: the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day;
47 and in His name repentance leading to forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to people from all nations, starting with Yerushalayim.
48 You are witnesses of these things.
49 Now I am sending forth upon you what my Father promised, so stay here in the city until you have been equipped with power from above.”

Also read Luke 16:19-31 CJB
29 But Avraham said, ‘They have Moshe and the Prophets; they should listen to them.’
30 However, he said, ‘No, father Avraham, they need more. If someone from the dead goes to them, they’ll repent!’
31 But he replied, ‘If they won’t listen to Moshe and the Prophets, they won’t be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Heber Book List · Apr 9, 2018

tampasteve said:
Would it though? The resurrection was not really a part of the original Jewish Messianic prophesy, so I am not sure that it would have figured much in Paul's story narrative. Alternatively or further, if it was taken as a base fact then he might not have mentioned it regardless. Most of Paul's writings are to specific people or churches on different matters, if the resurrection was not debated and was known among the believers as fact there might not be much reason to mention it in his writings.

Paul did speak about the resurrection at the Aeropagus and also to stir up trouble between the Sadducees and Pharisees, as well as in some of his teachings, but not much about Yeshua being seen by many people. If he was writing to MJ's then he would be safe to do so, and to elaborate on this aspect. I am sure many congregations around the Med would have asked him for more info. about what people said, having seen Jesus after his resurrectuion - he would have had star status among those souls who say they had seen him and spoken to him; we are talking about 100's of people who met him.

However, this this not what the OP is about

AbbaLove · Apr 9, 2018

These verses in Luke 16:29-31 best explain why Yeshua only appeared to those inclined to Believe. Even then there were many doubting Judaeans way back then ... just as there are many unbelieving Israeli citizens today.

29 But Avraham said, ‘They have Moshe and the Prophets; they should listen to them.’
30 However, he said, ‘No, father Avraham, they need more. If someone from the dead goes to them, they’ll repent!’
31 But he replied, ‘If they won’t listen to Moshe and the Prophets, they won’t be convinced even if someone rises from the dead!’”

Yeshua said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen Me?
How blessed are those who do not see, but believe anyway!”

Heber Book List · Apr 9, 2018

Lulav said:
That may answer one question but what about 'the twelve' and 'The Apostles'?

Matthias had joined the 11.

AbbaLove · Apr 9, 2018

Lulav said:
Now even though what happened was reported to the Chief Priests, what about him walking about for 30 days?

Lulav said:
I think that regarding those aforementioned incidents it was a 'mind over matter' kind of thing. I see this everyday here at CF even. When you have a certain perception of something or belief, even with evidence in front of you you don't recognize it.

One reason Yeshua stayed on earth for 40 days after His resurrection instead of ascending immediately into heaven was to demonstrate to His followers that He truly was alive. Apparently, Yeshua didn't have thousands of followers or He would have appeared to more Judaeans.

Matthew 28:11-15
11 As they were going, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the head cohanim everything that had happened.
12 Then they met with the elders; and after discussing the matter, they gave the soldiers a sizeable sum of money
13 and said to them, “Tell people, ‘His talmidim came during the night and stole his body while we were sleeping.’
14 If the governor hears of it, we will put things right with him and keep you from getting in trouble.”
15 The soldiers took the money and did as they were told, and this story has been spread about by Judeans till this very day.

BukiRob · Apr 13, 2018

AbbaLove said:
One reason Yeshua stayed on earth for 40 days after His resurrection instead of ascending immediately into heaven was to demonstrate to His followers that He truly was alive. Apparently, Yeshua didn't have thousands of followers or He would have appeared to more Judaeans.

Matthew 28:11-15
11 As they were going, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the head cohanim everything that had happened.
12 Then they met with the elders; and after discussing the matter, they gave the soldiers a sizeable sum of money
13 and said to them, “Tell people, ‘His talmidim came during the night and stole his body while we were sleeping.’
14 If the governor hears of it, we will put things right with him and keep you from getting in trouble.”
15 The soldiers took the money and did as they were told, and this story has been spread about by Judeans till this very day.

Yet we do read that he appeared to the 500. It is important to remember that women and children were NOT counted when crowd size numbers are mentioned and when women and children are mentioned at all, they are not counted.

Based on the traditions of the day, the 500 was speaking of the number of men. It was likely that the number of total people was likely significantly larger than 500.

pinacled · Apr 16, 2018

Lulav said:
The resurrection, Why so little on appearances after?

I got to thinking, with a miracle like this and all those who were following him why wasn't there more recorded on this?

Yeshua was walking on the earth 30 day AFTER he died, I'd say even today that would be something to talk about!

I'm going to post passages surrounding this and ask questions, any you want to answer feel free but please do not go off topic.

Matthew 27-28

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Where are the records of this? I'm sure since the city was overflowing with Pilgrims that these people, these many people were seen by many, some may have even been recognized.

This many people resurrected at the same time or just after Yeshua, this would have not only made news in our day but also gone viral! Back then it should have been something that would have been the talk of the town, and not just the talk of Jerusalem but the Whole Roman Empire.

It would have traveled far and wide, merchants coming into the city for the festival would take this on the road with them after they left.

The Guard at the Tomb

62-66 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

The Chief Priests and Pharisees, all wanted to make sure that nothing happened to the body so that their justification for having him crucified would be valid. I'm sure they didn't want evidence of this coming to light but it wasn't just him, there were the other things, the curtain in the Temple, the earthquake the darkness, after all these things happened would they still be so concerned, more or less? And then there's the walking deceased, surely someone recognized someone?

Matthew 28

Were there two earthquakes or just one? (see Matthew 27 above)

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Now even though what happened was reported to the Chief Priests, what about him walking about for 30 days?

The Report of the Guards----11-15

Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Still being reported that his body was stolen? then how did his walking around afterwards NOT be reported?

That's all Matthew has to say, let's look at Mark in the next post.

perhaps there was something about purity involved. i was reminded of the water and spirit when seeing the two doves.
something i shared with close friend recently about a simple visual to teach a child.
count the generations from adam to noah while looking at your hands. and it doesnt matter whether you count from left to right or right to left unless a charity of Fire escapes your attention.
Walking in prayer and Blessings Always sis.
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