Monna

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Who are the 4 living creatures/beings and 24 elders of Revelation 4, 5 and 19? (The KJV uses the word 'beasts' but many other translations use 'living creatures' or 'living beings' (including both the Complete Jewish Bible and the Orthodox Jewish Bible). 'Beast' has a connotation of animalistic so I have chosen to use living creatures. The 24 elders are also mentioned in Rev 11 but without the living creatures.

Is there anything significant in the use of "living" as an adjective for the 4 creatures. In both chapters they worship and they speak. This would seem by itself to indicate they were/are alive, so why the explicit adjective? In Rev 4 these living creatures are described as looking like 1) a lion 2) an ox 3) a man and 4) a flying eagle (wings spread?). All are "covered in eyes, front and back ... even under its wings" and all have 6 wings. What is the significance of these descriptions?

The term "elder" has a connotation of a role of wise leadership or advisorship (due to extensive experience that only time can ensure) in churches but also in traditional societies. To and for whom are these elders leaders or advisors, and why 24? (The Amplified Bible, Classical Edition has a note on Rev 4:4 referring to George R. Berry, Greek-English New Testament Lexicon, the 24 elders on their thrones suggest "the heavenly Sanhedrin")

Ezekial saw "four living creatures" in one of his visions, but all had the appearance of "human beings" except that they had four faces, so these would seem to be different from the living beings that John writes of in Revelation.
 

seventysevens

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Who are the 4 living creatures/beings and 24 elders of Revelation 4, 5 and 19?

Is there anything significant in the use of "living" as an adjective for the 4 creatures. In both chapters they worship and they speak. This would seem by itself to indicate they were/are alive, so why the explicit adjective? In Rev 4 these living creatures are described as looking like 1) a lion 2) an ox 3) a man and 4) a flying eagle (wings spread?). All are "covered in eyes, front and back ... even under its wings" and all have 6 wings. What is the significance of these descriptions?

The term "elder" has a connotation of a role of wise leadership or advisorship (due to extensive experience that only time can ensure) in churches but also in traditional societies. To and for whom are these elders leaders or advisors, and why 24? (The Amplified Bible, Classical Edition has a note on Rev 4:4 referring to George R. Berry, Greek-English New Testament Lexicon, the 24 elders on their thrones suggest "the heavenly Sanhedrin")

Ezekial saw "four living creatures" in one of his visions, but all had the appearance of "human beings" except that they had four faces, so these would seem to be different from the living beings that John writes of in Revelation.
The description of the 4 living creatures are much like the seraphim like those of the ark of the covenant, who are the 24 elders , seems to represent people who have chosen to follow the Lord- why the " heavenly Sanhedrin " when it could represent the saints that will rule and reign with Jesus during the millennium reign ?
 
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Monna

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seraphim like those of the ark of the covenant
Isaiah 6:1,2
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.​

Isaiah doesn't tell us how many he saw,* but noted the six wings. Interestingly, one pair covered their faces, so Isaiah could not describe those. And he seemed not to have noticed any eyes.

Isaiah saw seraphim (or S’rafim) (as used in the Complete Jewish Bible.)

According to Exodus 25:22 it was cherubim (or k'ruvim) that were on the ark of the covenant. "the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the Testimony."

Both cherubim and seraphim had six wings.

* Arabic has two word forms for plurals: one that is used for two of something - like a pair; a different plural form for three or more of a thing. I don't know if the same is true for Hebrew; could be, as they are related languages. If it is so, then we would know if Isaiah saw two seraphim or more. Any Hebrew speakers/scholars around?
 
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seventysevens

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Hebrew -- Isa 6:2
ב שְׂרָפִים עֹמְדִים מִמַּעַל לוֹ, שֵׁשׁ כְּנָפַיִם שֵׁשׁ כְּנָפַיִם לְאֶחָד:
בִּשְׁתַּיִם יְכַסֶּה פָנָיו, וּבִשְׁתַּיִם יְכַסֶּה רַגְלָיו--וּבִשְׁתַּיִם יְעוֹפֵף.

English Isa 6:2

Above Him stood the seraphim; each one had six wings: with twain he covered his face and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

It says that they have
2 wings that cover their face
2 wings that cover their feet
2 wings that they did fly

Does not indicate how many seraphim
 
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Radagast

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Who are the 4 living creatures/beings

I don't personally agree, but the four living creatures are traditionally identified with the four Gospels -- Matthew the lion, Mark the ox, Luke the man, and John the eagle:

4evangelists-sm.jpg
 
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com7fy8

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the use of "living" as an adjective for the 4 creatures.
Hi, Monna :) Glad to meet you, God bless you :) I haven't gotten into studying explanations of symbolic and literal things in Revelation much; but I do benefit greatly from how Revelation means for us to get real correction of God and grow in the image of Jesus and how Jesus in us has us submitting to our Father and loving any and all people.

But for you I will offer what I get, for now >

In any case, I would say "living" is correct. And, included in this, we can see how Heaven is alive . . . in different forms of love.

From what these beings look like, we can get a love lesson > it does not matter what someone looks like, in order to have Heavenly love ! ! !

Also, I think these beings can help us to see that there is nothing and no one dead in Heaven. I would say even the streets of gold are alive! Because our Apostle Paul says "the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (in Romans 8:21) And in our "glorious liberty" we are in resurrectional glory of Heaven's own quality of eternal life. So, even the earth, which provided the dust from which our bodies were made, will "also" be resurrected into eternal love life quality, like us.

So all is alive, in Heaven, I would say :)

All are "covered in eyes, front and back ... even under its wings" and all have 6 wings.
Well, God is all-seeing. So, this could mean how these living beings are sharing with God, by being all-seeing > seeing in all directions. And this supports how God's creatures can be resurrected to fully share with God, if "the creation" will be in our "glorious liberty". So, these creatures could be an indication of how in Heaven we will so share with God.

But - - - now - - - it is time for us to grow in this > so "in all things" we share with Jesus who is in us as our new and growing inner Person > Galatians 4:19 > as Ephesians 4:15 says > "speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head---Christ" (in Ephesians 4:15).

As we grow in God's own love in us now > Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:17 < we more and more share with Him in all His things. By having Heaven's Jesus growing in us now, right now we can be a Heavenly place where God can dwell and enjoy Himself while He is dealing with all that is going on all around us. With Him, we can be seeing all around us, but in His love way of seeing things . . . first praising Him the way the all-seeing beings in Heaven keep praising God in spite of how evil would take our attention elsewhere.

Oh ! ! ! Hallelujah ! ! !

The term "elder" has a connotation of a role of wise leadership or advisorship (due to extensive experience that only time can ensure) in churches but also in traditional societies.
Time is included, but we can look at the qualifications of an elder > 1 Timothy 3:1-10 < there is maturing in how love has a man become "blameless". And the man needs to have his lady helping him to get real correction and maturity in Jesus so he can feed us this example. They together with each other learn how to love and how to bring up their children, as their children's sample and example of how to relate in love in marriage and how to bring up children. With her help, he learns how to care for people in God's family caring and sharing way, Monna, and so with his own family he finds out how to "take care of the church of God". So, she is part of his qualification, I dare consider :)

To and for whom are these elders leaders or advisors, and why 24?
Well, our Apostle Peter says, to elders >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, they are "examples". Being an example can go beyond giving wisdom and advice and guidance. These possibly are the hierarchical tip of all the elders now on this earth . . . and of all of us who are one body of Jesus, all connected and flowing to one another with God's grace > 1 Peter 4:9-10.
 
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Radagast

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Is there anything significant in the use of "living" as an adjective for the 4 creatures. In both chapters they worship and they speak. This would seem by itself to indicate they were/are alive, so why the explicit adjective?

In the Greek, there is no adjective. The word zōon is used, which is a noun derived from the verb "to live."

"Living beings" (KJ21, NLT) is a good translation, as is "living creatures" (ASV, CSB, ESV, NASB, NIV, NKJV, RSV, etc.).
 
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DamianWarS

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Who are the 4 living creatures/beings and 24 elders of Revelation 4, 5 and 19?...

according to Catholic use of defensive interpretation of 5:8 the 4 living creatures and 24 elders are the sum total of all the saints in heaven that we can pray to
 
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Monna

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In the Greek, there is no adjective. The word zōon is used, which is a noun derived from the verb "to live."

"Living beings" (KJ21, NLT) is a good translation, as is "living creatures" (ASV, CSB, ESV, NASB, NIV, NKJV, RSV, etc.).

Thank you Radagast for that clarification. Could the translation also be "four lives?" Whatever, with this clarification I get the idea that the focus is not so much on them being "creatures" or "beings" but very much on their being alive.
 
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Monna

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the 4 living creatures and 24 elders are the sum total of all the saints in heaven

Thanks Damian. Does the Catholic church also provide a symbolic meaning to the numbers 4 and 24, and the difference between the living beings (one of which had the face of a human) and the 24 elders?
 
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Who are the 4 living creatures/beings and 24 elders of Revelation 4, 5 and 19? (The KJV uses the word 'beasts' but many other translations use 'living creatures' or 'living beings' (including both the Complete Jewish Bible and the Orthodox Jewish Bible). 'Beast' has a connotation of animalistic so I have chosen to use living creatures. The 24 elders are also mentioned in Rev 11 but without the living creatures.

Is there anything significant in the use of "living" as an adjective for the 4 creatures. In both chapters they worship and they speak. This would seem by itself to indicate they were/are alive, so why the explicit adjective? In Rev 4 these living creatures are described as looking like 1) a lion 2) an ox 3) a man and 4) a flying eagle (wings spread?). All are "covered in eyes, front and back ... even under its wings" and all have 6 wings. What is the significance of these descriptions?

The term "elder" has a connotation of a role of wise leadership or advisorship (due to extensive experience that only time can ensure) in churches but also in traditional societies. To and for whom are these elders leaders or advisors, and why 24? (The Amplified Bible, Classical Edition has a note on Rev 4:4 referring to George R. Berry, Greek-English New Testament Lexicon, the 24 elders on their thrones suggest "the heavenly Sanhedrin")

Ezekial saw "four living creatures" in one of his visions, but all had the appearance of "human beings" except that they had four faces, so these would seem to be different from the living beings that John writes of in Revelation.
Hello, consider please,

Living Creatures”:

Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:13, 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22; “four beasts”: Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4.​

Four and Twenty Elders”, the leaders of the other unfallen worlds:

Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4,

see also “ancients”: Isaiah 24:23​

In short, the 4 "living creatures", or the "four beasts" are all the unfallen peoples of the unfallen worlds, a represenation of the universal Kingdom of God. A beast in prophecy, is a Kingdom, or Nation, or political body of persons [Daniel 7:17,19 KJB, etc, such as: Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc., KJB].

The number 4, is the universal number [Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, see four winds, north, south, east and west, four corners, four quarters, the four things in Proverbs, etc, etc], the number of the 4 quarters of space and time [as in the 4th generation]. Thus they represent all of the Heavenly kingdom of God before His throne, all the unfallen worlds circling the throne of Deity. Each of the four faces, represent a character of God, Godly, Kingly, Exalted, Humble, even as the Four Gospels portray Jesus, etc.

In short, the 24 "Elders" or "ancients", are the Heavenly council, the 'presbyters' [if you please], of the unfallen Leaders of the unfallen worlds, the very “sons of God” who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, and the angelic “morning stars. They are the central representation of all the unfallen worlds, the General Conference of Heaven if you please. They are not human [but take the prayers of the saints on earth before God, Revelation 5:7-8 KJB, as this is what unfallen Heavenly beings do, Daniel 9:21-23; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:3-4 KJB, etc]. Also there are 24 hours in a day, which also corresponds with time, 12 hours in the daytime [John 11:9 KJB], 12 in the nighttime [Genesis 1:4; Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB], as there are 12 Patriarchs in the OT [Genesis 35:22 KJB, etc], and 12 Apostles in the NT [Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14 KJB]. 12 Gates and 12 Foundations [Revelation 21:12,13,21 KJB] of the Heavenly city, New Jersualem [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 3:12, 21:2,10, 22:19 KJB].

Each of the 24 Elders have crowns already [thus are not the redeemed, who do not get crowns until after the resurrection, and they already existed in the OT] and white [Light] raiment as Adam did when he was given dominion [stewardship] of this world, before sin.

See:

Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14;
Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-3,5,7,9,10,12,14,16,17,18,20,22,24,25,27,29,31,34;
Numbers 3:17,23,29,35,38,
Revelation 5:5.

The earthly model on earth, with Moses in the wilderness, with the peoples Israel and the 12 tribes, were a represtantion of the Heavenly government [which occultists twist, "As above, so below"]:

Deuteronomy 1:15 KJB - So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.​

Matthew 6:10 KJB - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke 11:2 KJB - And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
upload_2018-4-6_11-39-51.png


Let us see these things, again in brief, for a fuller documentation, I can post, but it is lengthy:

Unfallen beings, on unfallen worlds [no, not little green, grey or reptilian, etc, that is satan's mockery of heaven,a mischaracterization, a misrepresentation, for Heavenly beings are glorious to behold, shining as the light]:

The unfallen “worlds”, and the unfallen beings therein which “went not astray”, being “just persons, which need no repentance”:

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 11:3 KJB - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.​

Side note, those of man-kind, which are in Christ Jesus, are the 'aliens' to the wicked, for we are the very strangers and pilgrims [Satan has counterfeited and reversed this] in the universe. In reverse, the unfallen worlds are the natural, and sinners are the unnatural, thus are alienated from God:​

Hebrews 11:13 KJB - These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.​

We are that one lost world, whom the Son of God, 'Jesus', left the '99' for in Heaven to come and save us, that he might come from that “far country” and deliver us, and “return home” with us, that we may once again have a “place” among those “many mansions”:

Matthew 18:11 KJB - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 18:12 KJB - How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Matthew 18:13 KJB - And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luke 15:4 KJB - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:5 KJB - And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Luke 15:6 KJB - And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Luke 15:7 KJB - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Revelation 12:12 KJB - Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
John 14:1 KJB - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
If any would like more on the unfallen worlds, the unfallen beings, the order of God's Heavenly government, I can post that [it is looong], or share a link to whre you may DL the materials and read them individually:

Here:

Any may download the structure of Daniel and Revelation here - Link

Any may download the great Study here on the Michael the Archangel, The Character that will Stand in the Last Day [see sections [3] and [4] which covers the Angels, Archangels, Unfallen worlds and beings thereof] - Link
 

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ViaCrucis

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Some commentators note that David appointed 24 heads of the priestly courses, these 24 represented the whole of the priesthood; the implication being perhaps that the 24 elders are symbolic of the whole Church, or the entirety of the saints before the Lord. It's also two 12's, thus possibly a reference to the twelve tribes and twelve apostles--which probably again might emphasize that these represent the entirety of the saints.

Looking around, there are roughly three interpretations of the four living creatures I can see:

1. Angels/Cherubim
2. Symbolic of all creation
3. The four evangelists.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Radagast

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Thank you Radagast for that clarification. Could the translation also be "four lives?"

Not really.

Whatever, with this clarification I get the idea that the focus is not so much on them being "creatures" or "beings" but very much on their being alive.

Indeed. outside the bible the word also means "animal" (hence the KJV translation), but it's much broader than that, covering living things in general.
 
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Radagast

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It's also two 12's, thus possibly a reference to the twelve tribes and twelve apostles--which probably again might emphasize that these represent the entirety of the saints.

That's probably the most common. See also Revelation 21:12-14.
 
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DamianWarS

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Thanks Damian. Does the Catholic church also provide a symbolic meaning to the numbers 4 and 24, and the difference between the living beings (one of which had the face of a human) and the 24 elders?
I was being facetious, I'm not a Catholic myself
 
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