To Catholics: Is It Possible to "Overdo It" On Mary?

Tree of Life · Apr 3, 2018

Sometimes I and other Protestants who have a high view of Scripture get accused of "bibliolatry". The idea, I gather, is that we have too high a reverence for the Scriptures - such that the Scriptures have become an idol and we worship them rather than or alongside of God himself.

I reject the possibility of "bibliolatry". I suppose it's possible to worship a physical Bible in some strange way, supposing that touching or praying to the specific Bible brings some special blessing. Maybe this could be considered bibliolatry. But that's not the charge that's been leveled at me.

I don't think it's possible to revere God's word (which is contained in Scripture) too much. This is because God's word is identical to God himself. God's word cannot be separated from God's person. When we read the Bible (God's word), we hear God himself. So it is right to revere the Bible as much as we revere God.

Now to my question.

I think that all veneration and devotion to Mary or any other saint is overdoing it. To pray to a saint in any way is already overdoing it. To consider Mary to be some sort of co-redemptrix or to imagine that she imparts some special blessing to her devotees is idolatrous. Catholics will deny this in several creative ways. But I wonder if Catholics view veneration of Mary similarly to how I view a high view of the Scriptures. I don't think it's possible to "overdo it" in our reverence of the Scriptures. I don't think it's possible to have too high a view of the Scriptures. This is because the Scriptures are the very words of God.

So Catholics - Is it possible to overdo it in Marian devotion or devotion to other saints? If so, what would this look like? Where is the line? My fear is that many Catholics will say "no" because devotion to Mary is devotion to Jesus - a claim I would flatly deny. How would you answer?

TuxAme · Apr 3, 2018

I have no problem with someone having a high opinion of Scripture- no Catholic should. It's my own most frequently used source for anything theological because it's our common text. Our problem is that protestants generally believe that Scripture should be our only authority. The problem here is that this concept is totally foreign to the early Church, and we're less inclined to believe that the early Church got everything wrong. We don't make a liar out of Jesus (Matthew 16:18) by concluding that the Church got it wrong until "our guy" fixed everything. Besides, it really can't be our only authority because our opinions influence the way we look at it, and our opinions were probably influenced by someone else. Someone else's "authority" (opinion) becomes latched onto Scripture, and when do you know that your teaching comes from Scripture, rather than someone's opinion on Scripture? The idea is unworkable (not to mention non historical and non Scriptural).

Now, onto your actual question. Marian devotion is taken too far when it becomes idolatry. What qualifies as idolatry, of course, is also subjective because everyone has their own opinions of what that means- some say that merely having a picture of her is idolatrous. Some say that bowing to statues of anyone, even Jesus, is idolatrous (which is ridiculous- that rhymes, right?). As a general rule, if you give Mary more attention than Jesus, you have a problem. If you give St. Jude more attention than Jesus, you have a problem. If you obey the commandments, you'll be in good shape.

Mark_Sam · Apr 4, 2018

There is a saying that "of Mary, there is never enough" (de Maria numquam satis). And St. Maximilian Kolbe and St. Louis de Montfort uses pretty strong language when it comes to Mary, that many Christians - even Catholics - might find offensive. So I do understand where you are coming from.

The Collyridians (c. 300-ish?) were a group that worshipped Mary as a goddess, and sacrificed bread rolls (Greek "kollyris") to her. This is without a doubt heresy. So it is possible to go to far. And in the early 2000's, Dominic Sanchez Falar claimed that Mary is God (just writing that sentence makes me shudder!), and this was condemned as heresy in every way possible. It is my understanding that Sanchez Falar has ceased preaching, even though he still believes his visions to be authentic.

Mary should never be just a goal in and of herself, but she should always lead us to Christ. St. Louis de Montfort said that we should be

doing everything through Mary, with Mary, in Mary and for Mary, in order to do it more perfectly through Jesus, with Jesus, in Jesus and for Jesus. (True Devotion, 257)

And he also said:

Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. [...] If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. (True Devotion, 61-62)

So Marian devotion becomes idolatrous when she becomes the chief end of our devotion, instead of Christ. Now, what actually means in practice, is up for debate.

What you write about holy Scripture is certainly interesting. I agree that the Bible is a place were we can meet God our Father and hear him speak to us. Devotion to the Bible and to Mary is not so different, I think. Through the physical medium of paper and ink, the Spirit of God meets us, illuminates us and guides us. Through a human woman, the eternal Word came to us, took his flesh from the same woman, and entered into this world. The Bible shows us the Word of God and leads us to him; in the same way, the woman Mary brought us Christ and leads us to him. Ok, so not excactly comparable, but still there is something in common.

thecolorsblend · Apr 4, 2018

It’s like anything, it comes down to intent. If someone worships anybody or anything other than God, they’ve got a serious problem.

But if they have a strong Marian devotion, there’s no trouble at all. It’s not a matter of amount so much as intent. If someone believes Our Lady is worthy of their worship, I believe they should pray and maybe reread the Passion accounts in the gospels because Our Lady (as wonderful as she is) didn’t suffer and die on a bloody cross for our sins.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Apr 4, 2018

No. To adore the light illuminating the surface of the moon is ipso facto to adore the sun. This is a picture of how it is. Mary is the moon and in herself shes dark and quite ordinary not to say indifferent. Its Lumen Christi/ the light of Christ shining through her we adore and appreciate so much. When I look at Mary I see her love for Christ and her willingness to submit to his will for her.

She is Ave Maris Stella, the star who shows us the way to her son. Just like the moon can never outshine the sun which provides it with light nor can Mary stand in the way of her sons glory.

Phil 1:21 · Apr 4, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Sometimes I and other Protestants who have a high view of Scripture get accused of "bibliolatry". The idea, I gather, is that we have too high a reverence for the Scriptures - such that the Scriptures have become an idol and we worship them rather than or alongside of God himself.

I reject the possibility of "bibliolatry". I suppose it's possible to worship a physical Bible in some strange way, supposing that touching or praying to the specific Bible brings some special blessing. Maybe this could be considered bibliolatry. But that's not the charge that's been leveled at me.

I don't think it's possible to revere God's word (which is contained in Scripture) too much. This is because God's word is identical to God himself. God's word cannot be separated from God's person. When we read the Bible (God's word), we hear God himself. So it is right to revere the Bible as much as we revere God.

I agree wholeheartedly. The problem isn't that people put too much emphasis on the word of God, but too little.

Tree of Life said:
Now to my question.

I think that all veneration and devotion to Mary or any other saint is overdoing it. To pray to a saint in any way is already overdoing it. To consider Mary to be some sort of co-redemptrix or to imagine that she imparts some special blessing to her devotees is idolatrous. Catholics will deny this in several creative ways. But I wonder if Catholics view veneration of Mary similarly to how I view a high view of the Scriptures. I don't think it's possible to "overdo it" in our reverence of the Scriptures. I don't think it's possible to have too high a view of the Scriptures. This is because the Scriptures are the very words of God.

So Catholics - Is it possible to overdo it in Marian devotion or devotion to other saints? If so, what would this look like? Where is the line? My fear is that many Catholics will say "no" because devotion to Mary is devotion to Jesus - a claim I would flatly deny. How would you answer?

Is it possible to overdo it? I think so. When one is spending more time praying to and talking about Mary than Jesus, perhaps a little introspection is in order. And let us not forget what happened to Peter when, by faith he walked on the water, only to take his focus off Jesus.

He sank.

Tayla · Apr 4, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I think that all veneration and devotion to Mary or any other saint is overdoing it. To pray to a saint in any way is already overdoing it. To consider Mary to be some sort of co-redemptrix or to imagine that she imparts some special blessing to her devotees is idolatrous.

No, it isn't idolatrous. Perhaps they overdo it.

Theophan · Apr 5, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Sometimes I and other Protestants who have a high view of Scripture get accused of "bibliolatry". The idea, I gather, is that we have too high a reverence for the Scriptures - such that the Scriptures have become an idol and we worship them rather than or alongside of God himself.

I reject the possibility of "bibliolatry". I suppose it's possible to worship a physical Bible in some strange way, supposing that touching or praying to the specific Bible brings some special blessing. Maybe this could be considered bibliolatry. But that's not the charge that's been leveled at me.

I don't think it's possible to revere God's word (which is contained in Scripture) too much. This is because God's word is identical to God himself. God's word cannot be separated from God's person. When we read the Bible (God's word), we hear God himself. So it is right to revere the Bible as much as we revere God.

Now to my question.

I think that all veneration and devotion to Mary or any other saint is overdoing it. To pray to a saint in any way is already overdoing it. To consider Mary to be some sort of co-redemptrix or to imagine that she imparts some special blessing to her devotees is idolatrous. Catholics will deny this in several creative ways. But I wonder if Catholics view veneration of Mary similarly to how I view a high view of the Scriptures. I don't think it's possible to "overdo it" in our reverence of the Scriptures. I don't think it's possible to have too high a view of the Scriptures. This is because the Scriptures are the very words of God.

So Catholics - Is it possible to overdo it in Marian devotion or devotion to other saints? If so, what would this look like? Where is the line? My fear is that many Catholics will say "no" because devotion to Mary is devotion to Jesus - a claim I would flatly deny. How would you answer?

I am not Roman Catholic, so I do not answer on their behalf.

I do, however, believe in the veneration of the Saints. I do not believe in the worshiping of the Saints. We worship God only! We do not glorify the Saints, God glorifies Himself in them. We revere and honor and venerate Mary since she is the Mother of God, the Theotokos, specially chosen by Christ Himself. (She was His mother not because she created God but because she gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Word of God who became flesh...just a side note to avoid the silliness of arguing about the title Theotokos). We do not worship Mary. Although the Theotokos receives veneration from us, we more accurately venerate God in Mary because St Paul teaches us thus: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. Therefore, even if this sounds redundant, I have to repeat myself to ensure that I communicate this without confusion: we do not worship, nor glorify, nor pray to Mary; we do venerate her, glorify God in her, and invoke her for her intercessions to Christ.

I do not know how Catholics define devotion to Mary. We often see people write detailed biographical accounts, sometimes even songs, about other people that they highly esteem. We often see people say praises about those whom they admire. If this is what Catholics refer to as devotion, this is not sinful as long as we always remember that all glory and honor belongs to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Rubiks · Apr 5, 2018

Its not even biblically clear whether Mary was even a Christian. The gospels seem to portray, at least during Jesus' initial ministry, as a skeptic of some sort.

Mark_Sam · Apr 5, 2018

Rubiks said:
Its not even biblically clear whether Mary was even a Christian. The gospels seem to portray, at least during Jesus' initial ministry, as a skeptic of some sort.

I would argue that she was maybe the very first New Covenant believer - the first Christian. Having heard the Gospel of Christ preached by an angel, she said: "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word" (Luke 1:38).

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Apr 5, 2018

Rubiks said:
Its not even biblically clear whether Mary was even a Christian. The gospels seem to portray, at least during Jesus' initial ministry, as a skeptic of some sort.

Haha...
Im sorry but that one is new to me !
Beyond absurd though.

Rubiks · Apr 5, 2018

Mark_Sam said:
I would argue that she was maybe the very first New Covenant believer - the first Christian. Having heard the Gospel of Christ preached by an angel, she said: "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word" (Luke 1:38).

Read my post. I said the bible points towards Mary being a skeptic only during Jesus' initial ministry.
Luke 8:19-21 (NRSV)
19 Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

Rubiks · Apr 5, 2018

Anthony the Great said:
Haha...
Im sorry but that one is new to me !
Beyond absurd though.

Then prove it.

Mark_Sam · Apr 5, 2018

Rubiks said:
Read my post. I said the bible points towards Mary being a skeptic only during Jesus' initial ministry.

Ok. I just thought it was a little puzzling at first. The disciples inability to actually understand and believe until after Christ's resurrection, is a major theme in the Gospels.

Netgear · Apr 5, 2018

Mary, is like beacon on a hill. With Her light She draws people to God, through Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eloy Craft · Apr 6, 2018

Rubiks said:
Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

that can be read as an accusation or an affirmation. You hear an accusing voice when you read it.

To Catholics: Is It Possible to "Overdo It" On Mary?

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