The Lord's supper

PsaltiChrysostom

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I've heard of a Lutheran Church that promoted the concept of fasting before communion. They would not eat breakfast before communion. I like the idea, but if you study Paul's letter he is warning about eating the food of communion to fill physical hunger.

Here is my gripe. The disrespect is to God and God judges it. Those that promote "the powers that be of any particular denomination", promote earthly power.

For Eastern Orthodox, we prepare by prayer and fasting from the night before taking communion. Fasting, in and of itself, is meaningless without preparation and prayer. In this way, we break the fast by receiving the body and blood of Christ.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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From the Small Cathechism; note the highlighted area regarding fasting:

What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine, instituted by Christ Himself for us Christians to eat and to drink.

Where is this written?
The holy Evangelists Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul write:Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: “Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.”

In the same way also He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

What is the benefit of this eating and drinking?
These words, “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins,” show us that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?
Certainly not just eating and drinking do these things, but the words written here: “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.” These words, along with the bodily eating and drinking, are the main thing in the Sacrament. Whoever believes these words has exactly what they say: “forgiveness of sins.”

Who receives this sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation are certainly fine outward training. But that person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.”

But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words “for you” require all hearts to believe.

From Luther’s Small Catechism © 1986 Concordia Publishing House, cph.org
 
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W2L

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One need only to read posts in any forum to realize that things must be taken in context. Yes, we are commanded to examine ourselves, but unless we know why and what we are examining ourselves for, it is hopeless; hence the need for instruction.

Likewise, your posts make it obvious that you do not agree, are not of one faith in regard to the Eucharist, so it is wise that you have excluded yourself from the Lutheran Communion.
The bible teaches us how to examine ourselves.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The bible teaches us how to examine ourselves.
Yes, it does; and Luther summed these up in his questions and answers:

Christian Questions with Their Answers


Prepared by Dr. Martin Luther for those who intend to go to the Sacrament

[The "Christian Questions with Their Answers," designating Luther as the author, first appeared in an edition of the Small Catechism in 1551, five years after Luther's death].

After confession and instruction in the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, the pastor may ask, or Christians may ask themselves these questions:

1. Do you believe that you are a sinner?
Yes, I believe it. I am a sinner.

2. How do you know this?
From the Ten Commandments, which I have not kept.

3. Are you sorry for your sins?
Yes, I am sorry that I have sinned against God.

4. What have you deserved from God because of your sins?
His wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation. See Romans 6:21,23.

5. Do you hope to be saved?
Yes, that is my hope.

6. In whom then do you trust?
In my dear Lord Jesus Christ.

7. Who is Christ?
The Son of God, true God and man.

8. How many Gods are there?
Only one, but there are three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

9. What has Christ done for you that you trust in Him?
He died for me and shed His blood for me on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

10. Did the Father also die for you?
He did not. The Father is God only, as is the Holy Spirit; but the Son is both true God and true man. He died for me and shed his blood for me.

11. How do you know this?
From the holy Gospel, from the words instituting the Sacrament, and by His body and blood given me as a pledge in the Sacrament.

12. What are the Words of Institution?
Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: "Take eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me." In the same way also He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying: "Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

13. Do you believe, then, that the true body and blood of Christ are in the Sacrament?
Yes, I believe it.

14. What convinces you to believe this?
The word of Christ: Take, eat, this is My body; drink of it, all of you, this is My blood.

15. What should we do when we eat His body and drink His blood, and in this way receive His pledge?
We should remember and proclaim His death and the shedding of His blood, as He taught us: This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.

16. Why should we remember and proclaim His death?
First, so that we may learn to believe that no creature could make satisfaction for our sins. Only Christ, true God and man, could do that. Second, so we may learn to be horrified by our sins, and to regard them as very serious. Third, so we may find joy and comfort in Christ alone, and through faith in Him be saved.

17. What motivated Christ to die and make full payment for your sins?
His great love for His Father and for me and other sinners, as it is written in John 14; Romans 5; Galatians 2 and Ephesians 5.

18. Finally, why do you wish to go to the Sacrament?
That I may learn to believe that Christ, out of great love, died for my sin, and also learn from Him to love God and my neighbor.

19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?
First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.

20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?
To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15-16 and in 1 John 2 and 5. Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2.

Note:
These questions and answers are no child's play, but are drawn up with great earnestness of purpose by the venerable and devout Dr. Luther for both young and old. Let each one pay attention and consider it a serious matter; for St. Paul writes to the Galatians in chapter six: "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked."
 
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W2L

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Yes, it does; and Luther summed these up in his questions and answers:

Christian Questions with Their Answers


Prepared by Dr. Martin Luther for those who intend to go to the Sacrament

[The "Christian Questions with Their Answers," designating Luther as the author, first appeared in an edition of the Small Catechism in 1551, five years after Luther's death].

After confession and instruction in the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, the pastor may ask, or Christians may ask themselves these questions:

1. Do you believe that you are a sinner?
Yes, I believe it. I am a sinner.

2. How do you know this?
From the Ten Commandments, which I have not kept.

3. Are you sorry for your sins?
Yes, I am sorry that I have sinned against God.

4. What have you deserved from God because of your sins?
His wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation. See Romans 6:21,23.

5. Do you hope to be saved?
Yes, that is my hope.

6. In whom then do you trust?
In my dear Lord Jesus Christ.

7. Who is Christ?
The Son of God, true God and man.

8. How many Gods are there?
Only one, but there are three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

9. What has Christ done for you that you trust in Him?
He died for me and shed His blood for me on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

10. Did the Father also die for you?
He did not. The Father is God only, as is the Holy Spirit; but the Son is both true God and true man. He died for me and shed his blood for me.

11. How do you know this?
From the holy Gospel, from the words instituting the Sacrament, and by His body and blood given me as a pledge in the Sacrament.

12. What are the Words of Institution?
Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: "Take eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me." In the same way also He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying: "Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

13. Do you believe, then, that the true body and blood of Christ are in the Sacrament?
Yes, I believe it.

14. What convinces you to believe this?
The word of Christ: Take, eat, this is My body; drink of it, all of you, this is My blood.

15. What should we do when we eat His body and drink His blood, and in this way receive His pledge?
We should remember and proclaim His death and the shedding of His blood, as He taught us: This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.

16. Why should we remember and proclaim His death?
First, so that we may learn to believe that no creature could make satisfaction for our sins. Only Christ, true God and man, could do that. Second, so we may learn to be horrified by our sins, and to regard them as very serious. Third, so we may find joy and comfort in Christ alone, and through faith in Him be saved.

17. What motivated Christ to die and make full payment for your sins?
His great love for His Father and for me and other sinners, as it is written in John 14; Romans 5; Galatians 2 and Ephesians 5.

18. Finally, why do you wish to go to the Sacrament?
That I may learn to believe that Christ, out of great love, died for my sin, and also learn from Him to love God and my neighbor.

19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?
First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.

20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?
To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15-16 and in 1 John 2 and 5. Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2.

Note:
These questions and answers are no child's play, but are drawn up with great earnestness of purpose by the venerable and devout Dr. Luther for both young and old. Let each one pay attention and consider it a serious matter; for St. Paul writes to the Galatians in chapter six: "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked."
Thanks for the Re. :)
 
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Strong in Him

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That's right.

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when believers partake of communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and the wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus (John 6:53-56)

It doesn't say that.
If Paul had meant that, I'm sure he was capable of clearly saying, "when I say 'discern the body', I am referring to what Jesus said about eating and drinking his flesh. You need to believe that this is literal."

Paul has been talking about disorder in the Corinthian church - right back in chapter 3 he talks about the divisions they have and that they follow different leaders.
In chapter 11 he speaks again about these divisions, and says that at the Lord's Supper, some go ahead and start eating before waiting for anybody else. So some go hungry, and others get drunk - no fairness or equality.
So I have always thought that "discerning the body", meant the church body; other believers. Especially as in chapter 12 he talks about one part of the body being as important as other parts, however small it may be - and says that they are all the body of Christ.
He says that the Corinthians shouldn't eat the body of the Lord in an unworthy manner - eating as much as they wanted without thinking about, or considering, anyone else, is not only selfish, it's greedy and inconsiderate. The Last Supper was a meal that they ate together. Jesus' body and blood is for all believers; it dishonours him if some miss out because of the greediness of others.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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That's right.

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when believers partake of communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and the wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or else they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

Also, John 6:53-57 shows that all believers, for their ultimate salvation, need to eat the bread of communion (Matthew 26:26) and drink the wine of communion (Matthew 26:27-29).
You are correct.
 
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Jipsah

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Only one person here, *MyBrother'sKeeper2* seems to have seen what was actually being written about in that passage. Everyone else seems to be focused upon "ritual performance."
So this is one of the many times where the Scripture says one thing, but what it really means has to be modified to fit the doctrine, right? So if your doctrine doesn't allow for the the elements of the Lord's Supper being the actual Body and Blood of our Lord, you just make the Scripture refer to something else. As Brother Buford sagely noted, every Christian sect and denomination has doctrines that are so dearly held that the Bible can't be allowed to damage them.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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I agree. We don't need a pastor or priest saying we are worthy enough to take the Lord's Supper.
Right. None of us are worthy enough; we do have Scripture that is clear about receiving in a worthy manner, part of which is realizing that we are unworthy.
The Eucharist is only closed to those who are not open to being instructed and understanding the sacrament.
Likewise, your posts make it obvious that you do not agree, are not of one faith in regard to the Eucharist, so it is wise that you have excluded yourself from the Lutheran Communion.
It seems you do judge who is worthy to take communion in your church.
It seems you think one is only worthy if they believe what you instruct in your church.
It seems you make it to be about professing unity of your faith instead of just following Jesus'
command.

You may be proud of your exclusions, but I find it lacking in scriptural support and not consistent with Jesus' teaching of the Church being one body of Christ.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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And so we have disagreement, is it the body and blood because of Jesus' authority or only if you believe it, say it is and a pastor pronounces it so.
No, it has nothing to do with personal belief; that would be "receptionism", it is because of Christ's will through His Word that it becomes his very body and blood. It has nothingto do with the "act" of the celebrant either.
Boy for a second, it looks like you agree that communion is based on God's action and word, not man's. That God's grace does not have to be understood in a very specific way by the pastor or the recipient to be valid. But this is not how you argue in your defense of closed communion. I challenge you to think about the mechanics of what is different between communion in different churches.

Does a Baptist that takes communion in a Lutheran Church receive the same body and blood that the Lutheran receives?

Does a Lutheran that takes communion in a Baptist Church receive the same body and blood that he receives in a Lutheran church?

Christ's will is that all members of his body of Christ take communion.
His word is recorded in scripture. A pastor speaks Jesus' words before distribution.
Some pastors that don't believe in the physical presence speak those same words.
Some partake in the Lord's Supper don't believe in the physical presence. Some do.

So please defend how your version of communion is better than the Baptists.
To me the only difference is what you and your pastor believe.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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It is His Body and Blood or not?
Because it's the actual body and blood of Christ, not a mere token or symbol.
That's right.

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when believers partake of communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and the wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or else they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

Also, John 6:53-57 shows that all believers, for their ultimate salvation, need to eat the bread of communion (Matthew 26:26) and drink the wine of communion (Matthew 26:27-29).
You are correct.
13. Do you believe, then, that the true body and blood of Christ are in the Sacrament?
Yes, I believe it.
Oh, but Lutherans profess the real physical presence of Jesus in communion.
So do most denominations that profess "this is my body"

They do not believe in just a spiritual presence as John 6 teaches.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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So this is one of the many times where the Scripture says one thing, but what it really means has to be modified to fit the doctrine, right? So if your doctrine doesn't allow for the the elements of the Lord's Supper being the actual Body and Blood of our Lord, you just make the Scripture refer to something else. As Brother Buford sagely noted, every Christian sect and denomination has doctrines that are so dearly held that the Bible can't be allowed to damage them.
Don't pretend your church never takes on symbolic or spiritual meanings to what Jesus said.

Are Anglicans born again?
As John records Jesus' explanation, it is a spiritual rebirth and not a fleshy one.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”


When people feed on Jesus, do they feed on his spirit or his flesh?
John records Jesus' answer on this one also.

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.​

Even though Jesus in one place says flesh, Jesus explains he is speaking spiritually, just as in being reborn. One might think this to be deceptive, but I think it encourages us to think in the more important realm, the spiritual one, not the physical.

John 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I will add one more thought to ponder. Matthew, Mark and Luke record the institution of the Lord's Supper; the words "this is my body". But, John does not. Why? Some say the Synoptic Gospels tell the stories, but John does the heavy lifting. He does the explaining and detailed relating to our lives. Along those lines, it would be beneficial to use John's explanation of what eating Jesus' flesh means to formulate our intricate doctrine on the Lord's Supper.

Lastly, Jesus said, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
So I believe that regardless of what a Christian is taught to believe, the real presence of Jesus, in spirit, is in every church's execution of the Lord's Supper. And, just following what Jesus instituted results in the benefit of what he instituted being dispersed. That means God's grace is not dependent on our having exact understanding of God's grace, just like in infant baptism.
 
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Bible2+

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Strong in Him said in post #27:

So I have always thought that "discerning the body", meant the church body . . .

Strong in Him said in post #27:

He says that the Corinthians shouldn't eat the body of the Lord in an unworthy manner . . .

Eating the body of the Lord in an unworthy manner includes not "discerning" that the bread of Communion is actually the body of the Lord, just as the wine of Communion is actually the blood of the Lord:

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

That is, when Jesus Christ says of the bread of Communion: "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26), He can mean it.

Otherwise, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread, and taking a sip of wine?

Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?

Let us follow what the Lord Jesus Christ says:

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
 
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AnticipateHisComing said in post #33:

Even though Jesus in one place says flesh, Jesus explains he is speaking spiritually . . .

John 6:63 means that flesh by itself cannot give us eternal life. John 6:63b is not contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 does not mean "wholly apart from the flesh".

AnticipateHisComing said in post #33:

I think it encourages us to think in the more important realm, the spiritual one, not the physical . . .

Note that we must never discount the physical with regard to God's purposes and plans.

For example, Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism in order to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts, and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

AnticipateHisComing said in post #33:

God's grace is not dependent on our having exact understanding of God's grace, just like in infant baptism.

Note that unless God wants to make an exception for an elect individual (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15), infant baptism is not valid, because baptism is useless for salvation, and is not even allowed, unless the one being baptized is already a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38, Mark 16:16). Also, Christians need to be not just sprinkled with water, as is often done with infant baptism, but water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), in order to be ultimately saved (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
 
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So anyone who doesn't believe that the bread and wine are actual blood and flesh, they are not discerning the Lords body, and are guilty of body and blood of the Lord? That would include many protestants. They are guilty of the blood and body?
Ya, I tried to use that argument. Many protestants would be sick and dying. Their denominations should fizzle away. I got the most ridiculous "rebuttal" from a Lutheran pastor.

They don't get sick because they don't actually engage in the Lord's Supper,
so the curse of doing it incorrectly does not apply to them.

If I were to extrapolate this logic, the curse only applies to those doing it right. But, if they are doing it right, there is no need for a curse.

The failure of a Lutheran pastor to defend with scripture or even with a tenable argument their closed communion is one of the reasons I left them. Guess what, I am not sick and dying.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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John 6:63 means that flesh by itself cannot give us eternal life. John 6:63b is not contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 does not mean "wholly apart from the flesh".
The flesh is of NO help. The flesh counts for NOTHING. This is what Jesus said when asked about EATING flesh, not the crucifixion of flesh. Your argued in post 4 that communion was a spiritual manner, now you argue different.
In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when believers partake of communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and the wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or else they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).


Note that we must never discount the physical with regard to God's purposes and plans.

For example, Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism in order to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts, and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
Sorry, everyone that does not believe in the physical presence of Jesus' flesh in communion is not Gnostic or Antichrist. So you can take your slander elsewhere.
Note that unless God wants to make an exception for an elect individual (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15), infant baptism is not valid, because baptism is useless for salvation, and is not even allowed, unless the one being baptized is already a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38, Mark 16:16).
Baptism is the sacrament where the gift of the Holy Spirit is promised to one saved. All the saved are the elect and objects of God's mercy and compassion. God is free to disperse his Spirit on any he chooses, at any age. People have received the Holy Spirit before, during and after baptism.

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.​

Also, Christians need to be not just sprinkled with water, as is often done with infant baptism, but water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), in order to be ultimately saved (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
And so you think those not immersed are going to hell?
Do you pick up snakes and drink poison too?
 
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Strong in Him

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Eating the body of the Lord in an unworthy manner includes not "discerning" that the bread of Communion is actually the body of the Lord, just as the wine of Communion is actually the blood of the Lord:

So you said, but the passage doesn't say that.

Otherwise, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread, and taking a sip of wine?

Jesus makes it clear in the Gospels that is someone rejects his followers, they reject him.
John 15:18 - if the word rejects you, it rejected me first.
John 15:20 - if they persecuted me, they will persecute you too.
Matthew 25 - if we do things for one of "the least of Jesus' brethren", we are doing it for him.
Jesus also said, "whoever hates you, hates me". And whoever causes one of these little ones to sin should be cast into the sea with a mill stone around his neck.
In other words, whoever rejects or hates God's children, and followers of Jesus, is rejecting and hating Jesus himself. So it's not illogical to say that whoever sins against God's children is sinning against Jesus himself.

Paul said that the Corinthians were all the body of Christ. So if someone was treating part of that body badly - leaving them out/discriminating against them - it is as if they are doing it to Jesus himself.

Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?

Galatians 3:1 does not mention, and has nothing to do with, transubstantiation.

Let us follow what the Lord Jesus Christ says:

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Yes - and where is the verse, or where in that passage does it say, that the bread and wine at communion LITERALLY turns into my body and blood?
At the Last Supper, Jesus took bread and wine.
 
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NONE of us is worthy to eat at the Lord's table.
We have done nothing to earn, or deserve, it; nor could we. We go to receive from him at his invitation, by his grace.
If the Corinthians weren't respecting that, just barging in and eating and drinking to satisfy their own hunger, and needs - they were rejecting God's grace.
 
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