What would you change in order to promote unity?

aiki · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
Im not seeking unity either. I just want to share my belief that we can rid ourselves of things that divide us, but never get rid of truth. Truth however is in the eye of the beholder, and for that reason we can never have unity.

I see. Let me ask you: How far do you go with your "truth is in the eye of the beholder" thing? Is the sum of two plus two in the eye of the beholder? Is the law of gravity in the eye of the beholder? Is a cat being a cat in the eye of the beholder? Is all truth merely subjective?

Truth by its very nature is exclusivistic. If a ball is entirely red, it is not black, or pink, or green; if a rock is hard, and rough, and grey, it is not soft, and smooth and purple; if 1+1=2, it cannot equal any other number. When we try to unify on the ground of truth, then, it will necessarily mean the exclusion of some things - things that are contrary to, or excluded by, the truth on which we are unifying.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

aiki said:
I see. Let me ask you: How far do you go with your "truth is in the eye of the beholder" thing? Is the sum of two plus two in the eye of the beholder? Is the law of gravity in the eye of the beholder? Is a cat being a cat in the eye of the beholder? Is all truth merely subjective?

No to all your questions. Unlike those things you mentioned, religious truth cant always be right, because that would mean that the various denominations are all right. We know they cant all be right.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

Even in the apostles day, they had to contend with lies masquerading as the truth.

aiki · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
No to all your questions. Unlike those things you mentioned, religious truth cant always be right, because that would mean that the various denominations are all right. We know they cant all be right.

I agree. But this doesn't mean I must default to "they are all right" or "the truth cannot be known."

Many of the denominations in my area are distinct by virtue of their cultural heritage/language, or organizational structure, or emphasis on doctrine, not because of particular doctrines themselves. Mennonites, Baptists, E-Free, Missionary Alliance, Church of the Nazarene, Calvary Temple Pentecostals, Presbyterians - these all hold many of the same fundamental doctrines in common, though they are distinct as denominations. I think often the perception of evangelical Christianity as fractured and in conflict is more imagined than real.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

aiki said:
I agree. But this doesn't mean I must default to "they are all right" or "the truth cannot be known."

Many of the denominations in my area are distinct by virtue of their cultural heritage/language, or organizational structure, or emphasis on doctrine, not because of particular doctrines themselves. Mennonites, Baptists, E-Free, Missionary Alliance, Church of the Nazarene, Calvary Temple Pentecostals, Presbyterians - these all hold many of the same fundamental doctrines in common, though they are distinct as denominations. I think often the perception of evangelical Christianity as fractured and in conflict is more imagined than real.

I never said truth cant be known. Sure a church can be mixed truth with lies. Regardless, truth is still in the eye of the beholder because they don't agree 100%, im sure.

aiki · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
I never said truth cant be known. Sure a church can be mixed truth with lies. Regardless, truth is still in the eye of the beholder because they don't agree 100%, im sure.

I know you didn't say "Truth can't be known." I was speaking more generally to cultural/philosophical trends of thought in North America.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean when you say, "Truth is in the eye of the beholder." I understand that to mean that truth is subjective which is to say truth is not objective; for if truth is objective then it is not true that "truth is in the eye of the beholder" - at least, not entirely.

I'm not sure how you get from "Christians don't agree 100%" to "therefore truth is subjective." The latter statement does not follow necessarily from the former.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

aiki said:
I know you didn't say "Truth can't be known." I was speaking more generally to cultural/philosophical trends of thought in North America.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean when you say, "Truth is in the eye of the beholder." I understand that to mean that truth is subjective which is to say truth is not objective; for if truth is objective then it is not true that "truth is in the eye of the beholder" - at least, not entirely.

I'm not sure how you get from "Christians don't agree 100%" to "therefore truth is subjective." The latter statement does not follow necessarily from the former.

What would you call truth that is actually a lie? (please dont say its called a lie.

)

Wordkeeper · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
There is no reason to beat each other over the head because no one will listen anyway. They are committed to their denomination, and nothing will change them, at least not most of them anyway.

You hit the nail on the head. Believers are already good people by nature. That means being loyal is important. Interestingly, even the denomination leaders are great guys,. Sadly, sincerity doesn't cut the mustard, do the job. Again, sadly, truth is the victim and many are made to stumble, prevented from entering.

Brings to mind the saying, "The road to Hell is often paved with good intentions."

Let's remember, the Gospel IS offensive, able to cause divisions, because practical men will reject its teaching, it's so counter intuitive. Violence is inevitable, as strong men force their way in, into the Kingdom.

aiki · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
What would you call truth that is actually a lie? (please dont say its called a lie. )

Well, I don't know what else you would call it. Do you mean when the lie is thought to be the truth? If so, I would call it a deception.

What's interesting to me about your question is that it assumes that a lie can be discerned which requires that the truth be known. One only knows a lie for what it is when it is compared to the truth. To use an analogy: It is because we know what a straight line is that we are able to recognize a crooked one.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Believers are already good people by nature.

Think of Revelation 3, and the churches that were "good people by nature". Look also at the epistles. The apostles were always fighting against false doctrine that folks were all too eager to listen to.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

aiki said:
.

it assumes that a lie can be discerned which requires that the truth be known.

One only knows a lie for what it is when it is compared to the truth.

A lie can be discerned, and the truth known. Im unsure what you mean. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

LoveofTruth · Apr 3, 2018

John tower said:
Yes build each other up don’t beat each other down with scripture : that is not it’s purpose .

Yes helping eachother in love is always the intention

however John

Jeremiah 23:29 KJV
"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Acts 24:25 KJV
"And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee."

Isaiah 66:2 KJV
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

Revelation 3:19 KJV
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

2 Corinthians 10:10,11 KJV
For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present."

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 KJV
"3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds )

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

John tower · Apr 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Yes helping eachother in love is always the intention

however John

Jeremiah 23:29 KJV
"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Acts 24:25 KJV
"And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee."

Isaiah 66:2 KJV
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

Revelation 3:19 KJV
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

2 Corinthians 10:10,11 KJV
For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present."

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 KJV
"3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds )

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Yes : balance that with : Brethren if a man be overtaken with a fault Ye which are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness , considering yourself lest you also be overtaken with a fault : I always try to lift up a brother first , only if he is reprobate do I take the other route .

ScumYetServant · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
Think of Revelation 3, and the churches that were "good people by nature". Look also at the epistles. The apostles were always fighting against false doctrine that folks were all too eager to listen to.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

ScumYetServant · Apr 3, 2018

We have that starting, yes. But it's not like the days of sszccc Noah quite yet. It was one family bra the world, things are not that dismal as of yet. However we should live each day as if it were our last and live a life for christ, reaching the lost. We need to deciple and be deciples. Don't forget encourage and correct according to scripture.

ScumYetServant · Apr 3, 2018

Also read Duturotomy 6:5-9 and do what it says, I challenge you all!

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

ScumYetServant said:
Also read Duturotomy 6:5-9 and do what it says, I challenge you all!

I have put the words of God in my heart.

Matthew 13:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

ScumYetServant · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
I have put the words of God in my heart.

Matthew 13:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Then you are to be commended for doing so, now continue to sow the gospel and live a life that christ would approve, for that is your testimony. Amen

Stormy · Apr 3, 2018

I would have everyone stop trying to make every Christian the same. What does it matter? Details are not important.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

Stormy said:
I would have everyone stop trying to make every Christian the same. What does it matter? Details are not important.

I guess that depends on the details

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

1 Corinthians 3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

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