Praying to Saints

prodromos · Apr 3, 2018

Jason0047 said:
But nowhere does Luke 7:11-17 say that the one and only son is the firstborn son. That is merely your assumption upon the text.

As for Numbers 3:40:

Well, Numbers 3:40 is again talking about the firstborn in a series of many sons because GOD knew that the Israelites intended to have more than just one son because nobody intended to have just one son back then. Nowhere does Numbers 3:40 say that you take your firstborn sons who are only childs and do such and such with them. You have to force that interpretation upon the text in order to make it work. Again, you cannot say that you won FIRST place if you are the only one in the race. Think about it. What you propose is illogical.

"Firstborn" is a legal term. It is not a logical term.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2018

First, implies a second.
I cannot say that the Old Covenant is the first covenant if it was the only Covenant that God gave us. But seeing there is a New Covenant, I can say that the Old Covenant is the first covenant. It would be illogical to say that the Old Covenant is the first if there would be no more covenants.

wilts43 · Apr 3, 2018

BobRyan said:
Exodus 20 says this
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

DOES (Exodus 20:3-5) FORBID STATUES, IMAGES & ART?
Absolutely not......unless you make nonesense of other passages.
Only 5 chapters later (in God's instructions for The Ark of The Covenent) God TELLS them to create graven images!
(1)In Exodus 25:18-20, God COMMANDS Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. " And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. "

(2)God also gave directions for images and animals as decoration of the temple and placed cheribum on the ark of the covenant. 1Kings 7:27 "Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames, and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."

(3) God commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.

(4)God had Moses create a staff with a serpent at the top. People looking at it were cured.
According to Protestant critics of Catholic pratices this was idolatory.

Catholics do not "worship" images. Catholic doctrine forbids that. We "use" them as reminders; and to focus our attention.
Do you use images of your family to remind you to think of them?
Have you ever kissed a photo or talked to it, or said "I love you"? I have: but I was not "worshipping" (or even "loving") the paper! It directed my thoughts to the person it represents.
Have you never used any prayer aid or prayer-reminder for focus? When I kiss a crucifix I am using my body to cause my mind to love & thank Jesus; I am not worshipping the material it's made of.
It's even more useful to have images of what we have not seen (e.g. Mary) to give our mind's imagination a path to contemplation (e.g. of our Mother Mary in Heaven).
You have to remember, that at the time of the Mosaic Law, people literally thought they could literally "make" powerful Gods & worship them. The problem was that, for the Jews (with their "abstract God") they lacked an easy prayer-focus and the people fell away easily.
Our danger of falling into idolatory today is not statuary but MONEY, POWER, ADDICTIONS etc.
That Mosaic situation is remedied by God's INCARNATION in Christ. God has given us images of Himself.....
(1)In The God-Man Christ,
(2)In "The Father-God"
(3)The Holy Spirit as Dove/Tongues-of-fire. God himself gave us these images!

And on the shroud of Turin I believe God has actually given us an image of Himself/Christ. What do you make of the image on the shroud? Do you ignore it? Do you mock it? Do you say to God "You can't do that" Or would you venerate it as I would? If you were before this cloth, how would you treat it?

CRECHE/CRIB? Do you have a Christmas Creche? So do you have a statue of Mary in your Church for a month? Would it be OK to look at her there & think..."Thank you Mary for bringing Jesus into this world"?
If you looked at Mary with Jesus in the creche, and said...... "Hail full of grace, the Lord is with with thee"...."blessed art thou amongst women" and "all generations shall indeed call you blessed" for you are "the handmade of the Lord" that "magnifies the Lord" and brings Him forth into the world by the power of your spouse The holy Spirit...... You would have just quoted a lot of scripture from Luke! Would this be "praying to Mary"?
The early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs. They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
in the OT in 2 Kings 13, a dead man comes back to life after touching the bones of the prophet Elisha.
In Acts; "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."
In Mark 5:25-34 A woman is healed by touching Jesus' garment. "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”
Jesus healed a blind man using mud & spit.
Protestantism has tended to DIS-incarnate Christianity sometimes to the point of Gnosticism. It became about reading, hearing, knowledge & thinking.....a Head religion. This was (over)-compensated for in 19 Century Revivalism up to the moment, which accentuates emotional satisfactions in worship & prayer.
Catholicism is more about growing in sanctity/holiness, allowing the real, living Jesus in The Eucharist into us.... to transform us. Since God has taken flesh in Christ, Catholic Christianity recognises that "The Flesh" is blessed by God too. So we are comfortable using our bodies (and material aids).....
It's to HELP us "worship in the spirit".
It's NOT INSTEAD of worshipping in the spirit. (It's another "Both/And" )

You have been indoctrinated to "see" idolatory, where there is love & honour being expressed with our bodies.
Since Jesus became incarnate, even our bodies are holy and are rightly used in worship.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2018

prodromos said:
"Firstborn" is a legal term. It is not a logical term.

No. God is a God of order and logic. He is not the author of confusion. Everything that is stated within His Word is orderly and logical.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2018

wilts43 said:
I am responding to remarks of yours
It is too late to hide behind "the topic"

DOES (Exodus 20:3-5) FORBID STATUES, IMAGES & ART?
Absolutely not......unless you make nonesense of other passages.
Only 5 chapters later (in God's instructions for The Ark of The Covenent) God TELLS them to create graven images!
(1)In Exodus 25:18-20, God COMMANDS Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. " And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. "

(2)God also gave directions for images and animals as decoration of the temple and placed cheribum on the ark of the covenant. 1Kings 7:27 "Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames, and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."

(3) God commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.

(4)God had Moses create a staff with a serpent at the top. People looking at it were cured.
According to Protestant critics of Catholic pratices this was idolatory.

Catholics do not "worship" images. Catholic doctrine forbids that. We "use" them as reminders; and to focus our attention.
Do you use images of your family to remind you to think of them?
Have you ever kissed a photo or talked to it, or said "I love you"? I have: but I was not "worshipping" (or even "loving") the paper! It directed my thoughts to the person it represents.
Have you never used any prayer aid or prayer-reminder for focus? When I kiss a crucifix I am using my body to cause my mind to love & thank Jesus; I am not worshipping the material it's made of.
It's even more useful to have images of what we have not seen (e.g. Mary) to give our mind's imagination a path to contemplation (e.g. of our Mother Mary in Heaven).
You have to remember, that at the time of the Mosaic Law, people literally thought they could literally "make" powerful Gods & worship them. The problem was that, for the Jews (with their "abstract God") they lacked an easy prayer-focus and the people fell away easily.
Our danger of falling into idolatory today is not statuary but MONEY, POWER, ADDICTIONS etc.
That Mosaic situation is remedied by God's INCARNATION in Christ. God has given us images of Himself.....
(1)In The God-Man Christ,
(2)In "The Father-God"
(3)The Holy Spirit as Dove/Tongues-of-fire. God himself gave us these images!

And on the shroud of Turin I believe God has actually given us an image of Himself/Christ. What do you make of the image on the shroud? Do you ignore it? Do you mock it? Do you say to God "You can't do that" Or would you venerate it as I would? If you were before this cloth, how would you treat it?

CRECHE/CRIB? Do you have a Christmas Creche? So do you have a statue of Mary in your Church for a month? Would it be OK to look at her there & think..."Thank you Mary for bringing Jesus into this world"?
If you looked at Mary with Jesus in the creche, and said...... "Hail full of grace, the Lord is with with thee"...."blessed art thou amongst women" and "all generations shall indeed call you blessed" for you are "the handmade of the Lord" that "magnifies the Lord" and brings Him forth into the world by the power of your spouse The holy Spirit...... You would have just quoted a lot of scripture from Luke! Would this be "praying to Mary"?
The early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs. They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
in the OT in 2 Kings 13, a dead man comes back to life after touching the bones of the prophet Elisha.
In Acts; "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."
In Mark 5:25-34 A woman is healed by touching Jesus' garment. "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”
Jesus healed a blind man using mud & spit.
Protestantism has tended to DIS-incarnate Christianity sometimes to the point of Gnosticism. It became about reading, hearing, knowledge & thinking.....a Head religion. This was (over)-compensated for in 19 Century Revivalism up to the moment, which accentuates emotional satisfactions in worship & prayer.
Catholicism is more about growing in sanctity/holiness, allowing the real, living Jesus in The Eucharist into us.... to transform us. Since God has taken flesh in Christ, Catholic Christianity recognises that "The Flesh" is blessed by God too. So we are comfortable using our bodies (and material aids).....
It's to HELP us "worship in the spirit".
It's NOT INSTEAD of worshipping in the spirit. (It's another "Both/And" )

You have been indoctrinated to "see" idolatory, where there is love & honour being expressed with our bodies.
Since Jesus became incarnate, even our bodies are holy and are rightly used in worship.

I am not really interested in debating with you because I know that it will not help you. You see what you want to see for your own reasons. Besides, this thread topic is not about discussion of the errors of the RCC in general. If you want to see why I think the RCC is not true, check out the link I provided to you in my previous post. If you disagree, then we can agree to disagree.

May God bless you this fine day.

Eloy Craft · Apr 3, 2018

I guess the blessing of the first born son depends on whether or not you have a younger brother. Riiiiight

prodromos · Apr 3, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No.

Uh, yes it is. No amount of you denying it will change the fact.

God is a God of order and logic. He is not the author of confusion. Everything that is stated within His Word is orderly and logical.

What a horribly shallow perception of God's word you have.

wilts43 · Apr 3, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The underline problem is communicating with the dead. It should be obvious.

"The Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life... that only came with the Revelation of Christ.
Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say "clearly" because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I'm not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:
"The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory…"
If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he's God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we "pray to the saints."
Praying to Dead Folks | Catholic Answers

Mountainmike · Apr 3, 2018

Ignatius I quoted correctly supporting the succession of bishops as authority.

Iraneus listed the successors of Peter from Linus,and in any event your own church in council acknowledged the primacy of the bishop of Rome.

And what Jesus bound in giving Peter the office of keys, the role of chief pastor. And power to bind and loose, orthodox cannot loose, so clearly they left the true church, paul was given none of those, sure he was at Rome.Jesus gives Peter his role, so you have no power to change that.

And in any event tertullian, Caius , Hippolytus , the poem against marcion and numerous others testify to Peter preceding the rest. To be orthodox you really do have to ignore many early fathers writings! None put paul st the head of that chain, nor indeed does Jesus or scripture. Jesus gave the keys to Peter alone, the pastorship " tend my sheep" to peter alone.

So I quote the fathers in their intended context.

prodromos said:
Irenaeus said Rome was preeminent because of Peter AND Paul.

Ignatius said nothing of the sort. To Polycarp he wrote:

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto Polycarp who is bishop of the church of the Smyrnaeans or rather who hath for his bishop God the Father and Jesus Christ, abundant greeting.

To the Smyrnaeans he wrote:

Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal Church.

To the Philadelphians he wrote:

Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist (for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar, as there is one bishop, together with the presbtery and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever ye do, ye may do it after God.

To Rome he writes:

I do not enjoin you, as Peter and Paul did. They were Apostles, I am a convict; they were free, but I am a slave to this very hour.

You badly misrepresent what these Church Fathers taught.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
I guess the blessing of the first born son depends on whether or not you have a younger brother. Riiiiight

In Old Testament Scripture: God is talking in perspective of how the Israelite is intending to have more than one son. Nowhere will you find a verse in Scripture that says that the FIRSTborn son is an only son. The Israelite was intending to have more than one son. It is what they did. To be fruitful and to multiply. So nobody back then just intended to have just one son. An only begotten son can still obtain the blessing of the firstborn son because the Israelite would still intend to have more than just one son. Technically speaking: You cannot be a firstborn son if there was no second-born son or third-born son, etc. in the family. Again, that would be like you saying you won first place if you were the only one in the race. FIRST implies there is a second or more. It's basic logic.

wilts43 · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
Me too. But please dont pray to me or make a statue of me.

If a senior Angel appeared to you, would he address you thus
"Chaire kecharitomene". "Hail, Full of Grace" (this is not an adequate translation)
This greeting implies great deference even obeisance! This occurs nowhere else in scripture.
"chaire" ="Hail" is honorific, as in "Hail Ceasar" and is used by the soldiers to mock Jesus "HAIL, king of the Jews"

"kecharitomene" is a unique word made up from other Greek words to imply "Completely filled-up with grace" in the sense of an action already fully completed.......Are you?
The whole phrase implies honourific greeting to an office-holder.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Apr 3, 2018

JF Seabastian said:
I agree that praying to any entity besides God is contradicted by Scripture. However, Catholics do not pray to saints, they ask saints to pray to God for them.

Appreciate the information but even with that though why do that? Is it cause they believe we can’t pray to God ourselves or they believe they dead saints serve kind of how the angel served.. the prophet... I think t was Daniel. He was fasting and praying and Satan straight up was blocking his path to God so an angel fought the enemy to get his message to God. But even with that Daniel wasn’t praying to the angel to get his message to God the angel just came but yeah.

wilts43 · Apr 3, 2018

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Appreciate the information but even with that though why do that? Is it cause they believe we can’t pray to God ourselves or they believe they serve kind of how the angel served.. the prophet... I think t was Daniel. He was fasting and praying and Satan straight up was blocking his path to God so an angel fought the enemy to get his message to God. But even with that Daniel wasn’t praying to the angel to get his message to God the angel just came but yeah

It is "loving one another"

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Apr 3, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Should we condemn the actions of others because their actions are not addressed in the Bible? The Bible doesn’t tell us everything we can do it tells us everything we can’t do.

No you’re it tells us what we can do also. It says there is one God and it also says in all things do it in the name of Jesus. Jesus even shows us an example of a prayer when he shows us how to pray to the father there is not one example of someone praying to a dead saint as if they are like some diety... in fact I encourage you to read the OT it condemns what you’re talking about praying against idols and anything or anyone else other then God. but anyone someone who understands catholic tradition more then I and clearly more then you explained it Better to me that they pray through saints not to saints.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2018

prodromos said:
Uh, yes it is. No amount of you denying it will change the fact.

But it denies basic logic and God is not the author of confusion.

You said:
What a horribly shallow perception of God's word you have.

Sticks and stones...

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2018

wilts43 said:
"The Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life... that only came with the Revelation of Christ.
Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say "clearly" because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I'm not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:
"The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory…"
If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he's God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we "pray to the saints."
Praying to Dead Folks | Catholic Answers

The New Testament is silent on any praying to dead saints, though. On the contrary, Jesus tells that we are not to have repetitious prayer and yet that is what the RCC does. Scripture says there is only one mediator between God the Father and man and not many mediators (like the saints). So what you are pushing is contrary to Scripture.

W2L · Apr 3, 2018

wilts43 said:
"kecharitomene" is a unique word made up from other Greek words to imply "Completely filled-up with grace" in the sense of an action already fully completed.......Are you?

Yes i am full of grace.

Mountainmike · Apr 3, 2018

DamianWarS said:
since I don't pray to those who have died perhaps you could ask him for me and tell me what he says. This question again seems to have been avoided... so i'll ask again, what is the value of praying to these saints?

My comment refers to what paul wrote in scripture.
So you can trust scripture, and pray for others, ask them to pray for you , as paul requested you do.
It is not for you to judge the value, obedience should suffice, but we are told the prayers of saints are there at the aLtar of God, so presumably efficacious.

Mountainmike · Apr 3, 2018

W2L said:
Yes i am full of grace.

You are certainly full of pride to think so!
Only one was titled " grace personified" ( - which is a fair rendering because it is a title not an adjective the angel gave her) or " hail completed in grace"
It wasn't you!

DamianWarS · Apr 3, 2018

wilts43 said:
What is the value of "loving one another"?

Again another redirect, would someone just answer the question

Praying to Saints

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