7th Trumpet Rapture?

ebedmelech · Apr 1, 2018

jerry kelso said:
ebemelech,

1. Hebrews 1:1-2
Jesus God’s Son did speak in John 14:2-3 In my Father’s House are many mansions... that he went to prepare for his saints. That is talking about Heaven where God resides because he knew we would be raptured.
Jesus went to Heaven after he died . Those mansions aren’t being prepared on earth.

Jerry, for you to even try and make John 14: 2-3 fit into Hebrews 1:1-2 is really a terrible case of scripture twisting. It has nothing to do with it. Hebrews 1:1-2 is making the point of why Jesus came as well as define His diety as creator and the Heir of all things. It goes on further to state the case of Christ as the Heir of all things since He made the supreme sacrifice for sin!

jerry kelso said:
2. Dispensational Theology In it’s correct perspective is right.
Paul was given the Dispensation of Grace.
Dispensation means stewardship and there was already grace even in the Old Testament. So don’t act like there were no different kinds of stewardship’s in the Bible.
Jesus talked about being a good stewardship.
I highly doubt you understand true dispensationalism.

I started out my Christian walk following dispensational theology. The church I attend now is dispensational in its theology. However I go to church for worship and fellowship. I clearly understand dispenationalism…but I equally understand where it falls short. Especially in it’s eschatology. The scripture speaks to the “dispensation of the fulness of times”. A far cry from dispensationalism.

jerry kelso said:
3. 1 Corinthians 15:51: Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
Not all sleep means there will be living believers that will be resurrected. This was not known to the Old Testament believers. They only understood the resurrection of the dead John 5:28-29; 11:23-24; 12:48.
Hebrews 6:1 speaks of leaving the law and go onto the perfection of the New Covenant and don’t lay down again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrine of baptisms, laying on Of hands and of the resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgement. That is the context of those two scriptures.
Those who misunderstand this don’t understand the mechanics of the law of Moses and its ethic compared to the New Covenant.

4. 1 Corinthians 15:13 is not talking about the Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead only.
Paul was talking to people who didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead like the Sadduccees in Jesus Day. He said if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not risen.
You must understand context and not just cherry pick a verse here or there. That is how we get wrong doctrine.

5. 1 Corinthians 15:23 with Christ the firstfruits when he first arose and took those in Abraham’s bosom to Heaven for the dead in Christ will he bring with him at the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15 to meet the living believers in the air. This was never taught in the Old Testament to the Jews. They understood the last day of the resurrection of the dead and that is all.

6. Those who don’t believe in the millennial kingdom usually use this scripture to prove that the end happens immediately after the second coming.
This is incorrect in the context.
Yes, it is true that the son will deliver the kingdom of God to the Father. Why? So God can be all in all v 28.
However, this only happens when the son puts down all sin and rebellion and death which is the last enemy vs. 25-26.
These vs. will happen in the millennial kingdom which is the 1000 year reign when Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit and then loosed for a season to deceive the nation’s Revelation 19:8 and God the Father destroys them with fire out of Heaven.
Death is destroyed and thrown with hell into the lake of fire v 14.
Chapter 21 officially starts the KoG all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.

7. Nobody is denying the spiritual resurrection of the soul.

You misunderstand. Paul is answering a question that the Corinthian church has. It’s right there at vss 12-14. The Corinthian church has members that don’t believe in the resurrection…and Paul is setting them straight on that. It’s not a pretrib rapture at all, but the rapture of living believers on the last day AFTER believers that have died are resurrected!

To say Old Testament believers didn’t understand is really out of bounds because they understood until resurrection they went to the “abode of the dead”, which is sheol. You’re again forcing your theology onto the passage. You do the same thing with 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul is explaining to the what happens to believers that have died. It’s right there at verse 14, and to try and explain away that this is resurrection is flat wrong. There is only one

jerry kelso said:
8. Matthew 25 is about the judgement of the nations at the beginning of the millennial kingdom on earth of which the Jews will be with Christ at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 which is part of their earthly calling Isaiah 9:6-7.

9. John was told to come up hither in this vision to see things future.
The first scene is showing the throne room and the one who sat on the throne and the worship in the throne room of God the Father and the Son.
Chapter 5 is about finding someone worthy to open the book and loose the seals and that was the Lion of Judah, Jesus Christ of the root of David.
The participants were the Old Testament Saints and the New Testament saints represented by the 24 elders Revelation 4:4,1
10; 5:8.
Revelation 5:10 is the church age saints and the Old Testament saints after the rapture for they are the ones who will reign on the earth and they are the ones who will come out of Heaven at the end of the tribulation Revelation 19:11 to go to Armageddon vs11-20.

Yes. John went up hither in the vision because he’s writing Revelation to the seven churches. If you let John tell you…you’ll get it. God the Father is on the throne and they are waiting on Christ to come and break the seals on the scroll the Father has. Christ is about to take His position at the right hand of the Father which He does. No rapture in Revelation 4. Christ is given the reign in Revelation 6...which He had already told John He has in Revelation 1:12-20. You’re making that up!

jerry kelso said:
10. You couldn’t debunk what I said on that point and so you give the overall summation of Chiat and his glory and ignore the rest of the truth.
I am glad we agreed on the last point, but you do need to learn to be more fair in proper exegesis which you lacked on that last point and a few others. Jerry kelso

I already debunked what you said Jerry. There’s not one thing saying this is a pretrib rapture in Revelation 4, or even alludes to such. The 24 elders are somewhat a mystery but I know 12 of them are the apostles…and I believe the other 12 are OT prophets...but I admit I don't take a hard stand on that

jerry kelso · Apr 2, 2018

ebedmelech said:
Jerry, for you to even try and make John 14: 2-3 fit into Hebrews 1:1-2 is really a terrible case of scripture twisting. It has nothing to do with it. Hebrews 1:1-2 is making the point of why Jesus came as well as define His diety as creator and the Heir of all things. It goes on further to state the case of Christ as the Heir of all things since He made the supreme sacrifice for sin!

I started out my Christian walk following dispensational theology. The church I attend now is dispensational in its theology. However I go to church for worship and fellowship. I clearly understand dispenationalism…but I equally understand where it falls short. Especially in it’s eschatology. The scripture speaks to the “dispensation of the fulness of times”. A far cry from dispensationalism.

You misunderstand. Paul is answering a question that the Corinthian church has. It’s right there at vss 12-14. The Corinthian church has members that don’t believe in the resurrection…and Paul is setting them straight on that. It’s not a pretrib rapture at all, but the rapture of living believers on the last day AFTER believers that have died are resurrected!

To say Old Testament believers didn’t understand is really out of bounds because the understood until resurrection believers knew the went to the “abode of the dead”, which is sheol. You’re again forcing your theology onto the passage. You do the same thing with 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul is explaining to the what happens to believers that have died. It’s right there at verse 14, and to try and explain away that this is resurrection is flat wrong. There is only one

Yes. John went up hither in the vision because he’s writing Revelation to the seven churches. If you let John tell you…you’ll get it. God the Father is on the throne and they are waiting on Christ to come and break the seals on the scroll the Father has. Christ is about to take His position at the right hand of the Father which He does. No rapture in Revelation 4. Christ is given the reign in Revelation 6...which He had already told John He has in Revelation 1:12-20. You’re making that up!

I already debunked what you said Jerry. There’s not one thing saying this is a pretrib rapture in Revelation 4, or even alludes to such. The 24 elders are somewhat a mystery but I know 12 of them are the apostles…and I believe the other 12 are OT prophets...but I admit I don't take a hard stand on that

ebedmelech,

1. I am not denying the context I made the parallel of the Son speaking to us. John 14:2, historically was to the Jews but it is also to the church for it is prophetical.

2. You are misunderstanding what a dispensation is as a stewardship. Paul was speaking of being given the DoG so I was not talking directly about the DotFOT.
You cannot different stewardship’s within the covenants.

3. You have no scripture that proves Paul was talking about the last day resurrection and haven’t given one.
The whole point was not about a pre, mid, or post in the big picture but why there is a physical rapture.
It is vs. 23 that says those that are Christ at his coming that denotes the pre- tribe rapture with vs 50-52.

4. Sorry, but you are wrong about the old Testament saints and the mystery of the rapture and you cannot debunk all the scriptures about it that I gave. All you can do is give your opinion.
I noticed you didn’t mention anything about Hebrews 6:1-2 and Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6 and their contexts.

5. Listen, a plain statement is not the only hermeneutic to prove scripture.
You never mention the other scripture and there context I gave for them being in Heaven such as the church ages in Revelation 2-3 in Heaven in 4&5 Revelation 4:1:9; 5:9-10, 11:18, 19:7-10.

6. I’ve gotta go to work but I’ll be back but you haven’t debunked nothing. Jerry Kelso

BABerean2 · Apr 2, 2018

jerry kelso said:
The gospel of the kingdom is that Christ is coming to take over all the nations and set Israel at the head of the nations Revelation 11:15.

The word "Israel" is not found in Revelation 11:15.

The text of the verse says the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ forever, not Israel.

Once again, you are trying to make John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Christ will be the head at His return.
Read Luke 24:25-27.

jerry kelso · Apr 3, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The word "Israel" is not found in Revelation 11:15.

The text of the verse says the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ forever, not Israel.

Once again, you are trying to make John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Christ will be the head at His return.
Read Luke 24:25-27.

baberean2,

1. I didn’t say Israel was the nation Christ was apprehending. He is defending and restoring the nation of Israel.
The Battle of Armageddon is in Israel and the enemies are the nations of this world.

2. Christ will be at the Head of the return Revelation 19:11-15.
So your claim of two peoples doctrine is thwarted as far as Israel being at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. and the church Heavenly saints will reign on throughout the earth for we are being trained right now for that 2 Timothy 2:12. We will rule and reign with a rod of iron.
You are wrong again as usual. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2018

jerry kelso said:
We will rule and reign with a rod of iron.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

.

jerry kelso · Apr 3, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

.

baberean2,

1. That was a prophecy to Israel not the church. Psalm 2:7-8.

2. Christ will rule and reign with a rod of iron. Psalm 2:9.

3. Saints will rule and reign with a rod of iron Revelation 2:16-27.
So what is your point? Nothing? Probably and if so probably not a very valid point. You are going to have to better than that. Jerry kelso

Riberra · Apr 3, 2018

jerry kelso said:
3. Saints will rule and reign with a rod of iron Revelation 2:16-27.
Jerry kelso

Nothing about a pre-trib rapture in the passage :
And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end...

That command to OVERCOME and keepeth Jesus's works [Gospel] unto the end [until death] is given to the 7 Churches ...

Revelation 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Riberra said:
Nothing about a pre-trib rapture in the passage :
And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end...

That command to OVERCOME and keepeth Jesus's works [Gospel] unto the end [until death] is given to the 7 Churches ...

Revelation 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

Riberra,

It is OK if you wish to remain behind and take the chance of losing your head. Some people seem to WANT to face the Beast. But in doing that, they will also be under God's wrath.

If this is what you want, I am sure God will oblige you. If you would rather be down here that in heaven in your mansion, I think it will happen.

However, for those that BELIEVE there will be an escape! All it takes is faith.

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
Riberra,

It is OK if you wish to remain behind and take the chance of losing your head. Some people seem to WANT to face the Beast. But in doing that, they will also be under God's wrath.

If this is what you want, I am sure God will oblige you. If you would rather be down here that in heaven in your mansion, I think it will happen.

However, for those that BELIEVE there will be an escape! All it takes is faith.

You have turned the pretrib doctrine into a cult by claiming that Christians who do not agree with you will be left, while you enjoy time in heaven with Christ.

A Christians viewpoint of rapture timing is not going to change their relationship with Christ.

.

Riberra · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
Riberra,

It is OK if you wish to remain behind and take the chance of losing your head. Some people seem to WANT to face the Beast. But in doing that, they will also be under God's wrath.

Loosing my head does not matter ...so you will need to find something else if you want to try to worry me !

iamlamad said:
If this is what you want, I am sure God will oblige you. If you would rather be down here that in heaven in your mansion, I think it will happen.

You will have to OVERCOME until the End to get your name written on it

Revelation 3:12 is very clear about it

iamlamad said:
However, for those that BELIEVE there will be an escape! All it takes is faith.

I remember you saying that if you have to go through the Tribulation ''you will not serve a God like that...''

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You have turned the pretrib doctrine into a cult by claiming that Christians who do not agree with you will be left, while you enjoy time in heaven with Christ.

A Christians viewpoint of rapture timing is not going to change their relationship with Christ.

.

In one verse, we see that it will be those "in Christ" that rise. But that is not the only verse in the bible. In another verse Jesus tells us He is coming for those who are expecting His coming and are looking for Him.

Tell us, please, can those who are looking for the Beast to appear first really be expecting Jesus at any minute?

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Riberra said:
Loosing my head does not matter ...so you will need to find something else if you want to try to worry me !

Most are choosing escape over losing their head. You could make the same choice if you wanted to. But you are choosing to lose your head. And that will be OK. We see the beheaded show up in heaven in chapter 15. You will miss the 7 years of blessings in heaven though.

Riberra · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
In one verse, we see that it will be those "in Christ" that rise. But that is not the only verse in the bible. In another verse Jesus tells us He is coming for those who are expecting His coming and are looking for Him.

Tell us, please, can those who are looking for the Beast to appear first really be expecting Jesus at any minute?

Can you show us the verses saying that Jesus will come at any minutes -any time---->rather than after ALL these things come to pass ?

Riberra · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
Most are choosing escape over losing their head. You could make the same choice if you wanted to. But you are choosing to lose your head. And that will be OK. We see the beheaded show up in heaven in chapter 15. You will miss the 7 years of blessings in heaven though.

You will have to OVERCOME until the End [until your death or until the coming of Jesus if still alive during the End times events]to get your name written on it -the City of God who will come down out of Heaven...-

Revelation 3:12 is very clear about it

12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

----------------------
I remember you -some years ago- saying that if you have to go through the Tribulation ''you will not serve a God like that...'' that saying of you ...show us that you think that you can command God doing what you wish....assuredly you are on your way for some big surprises.

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
In one verse, we see that it will be those "in Christ" that rise. But that is not the only verse in the bible. In another verse Jesus tells us He is coming for those who are expecting His coming and are looking for Him.

Tell us, please, can those who are looking for the Beast to appear first really be expecting Jesus at any minute?

You have just excluded most of the Christians who lived during the first 1800 years of the Church from being a part of your cult.

.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Riberra said:
Can you show us the verses saying that Jesus will come at any minutes -any time---->rather than after ALL these things come to pass ?

It should be obvious! How many times in the gospels did God mention WATCH?

ebedmelech · Apr 3, 2018

jerry kelso said:
ebedmelech,

1. I am not denying the context I made the parallel of the Son speaking to us. John 14:2, historically was to the Jews but it is also to the church for it is prophetical.

Of course Hebrews was written to the Hebrews but the fact is Jew or not it's making the point and NEVER addresses a pretrib rapture. Equally where Jesus said "many mansions" it's better said "dwelling places".

jerry kelso said:
2. You are misunderstanding what a dispensation is as a stewardship. Paul was speaking of being given the DoG so I was not talking directly about the DotFOT.
You cannot different stewardship’s within the covenants.

No Jerry. Paul's stewardship is the gospel, the idea of a DoG is just bad theology...NO ONE has ever been saved except by grace under both covenants.

jerry kelso said:
3. You have no scripture that proves Paul was talking about the last day resurrection and haven’t given one.
The whole point was not about a pre, mid, or post in the big picture but why there is a physical rapture.
It is vs. 23 that says those that are Christ at his coming that denotes the pre- tribe rapture with vs 50-52.

All you need do is read 1 Corinthians 15:12...that sets the context, and Paul never deviates from that. Furthermore at 15:24 Paul is telling you this is the end. Then how many times in John 6 does Jesus have to say "last day" before you understand?

jerry kelso said:
4. Sorry, but you are wrong about the old Testament saints and the mystery of the rapture and you cannot debunk all the scriptures about it that I gave. All you can do is give your opinion.
I noticed you didn’t mention anything about Hebrews 6:1-2 and Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6 and their contexts.

5. Listen, a plain statement is not the only hermeneutic to prove scripture.
You never mention the other scripture and there context I gave for them being in Heaven such as the church ages in Revelation 2-3 in Heaven in 4&5 Revelation 4:1:9; 5:9-10, 11:18, 19:7-10.

6. I’ve gotta go to work but I’ll be back but you haven’t debunked nothing. Jerry Kelso

This isn't about me debunking your contortion of scripture. It's about the truth of scripture Jerry...and that will not be some "great escape" rapture. It's bad eschatology!

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Riberra said:
You will have to OVERCOME until the End [until your death or until the coming of Jesus if still alive during the End times events]to get your name written on it -the City of God who will come down out of Heaven...-

Revelation 3:12 is very clear about it

12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

----------------------
I remember you -some years ago- saying that if you have to go through the Tribulation ''you will not serve a God like that...'' that saying of you ...show us that you think that you can command God doing what you wish....assuredly you are on your way for some big surprises.

You wrote:
"You will have to OVERCOME until the End [until your death or until the coming of Jesus if still alive during the End times events]"

I think we are living during the end time events. It is happening around us.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I have already "overcome" because I am born of God. I am currently and overcomer, because I am born of the Holy Spirit.

No human would beat up his bride before he married her. I am amazed you would even imagine that. Is human love greater than God's love?

Get this straight! God has an escape plan for those He loves and who love Him. For thos that want to ignore it, go right ahead. But in my mind, that would be very foolish.

Riberra · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
It should be obvious! How many times in the gospels did God mention WATCH?

They all refers to Revelation 16:15-16
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.
16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

Riberra · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
You wrote:
"You will have to OVERCOME until the End [until your death or until the coming of Jesus if still alive during the End times events]"

I think we are living during the end time events. It is happening around us.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I have already "overcome" because I am born of God. I am currently and overcomer, because I am born of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Of course you probably believe that this is not addressed to ALL the Christians who will be alive during the End Times Tribulation.

iamlamad said:
No human would beat up his bride before he married her. I am amazed you would even imagine that. Is human love greater than God's love?

God have the power to resurrect His SAINTS ... His wife have made herself ready, she is wearing fine linen white and pure for the fine linen white and pure is the righteous acts of the SAINTS...Revelation 19:7-8

THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS is surely not talking about Christians praying very hard to be taken to Heaven while they are watching TV and eating potato chips and drinking Coca Cola.

iamlamad said:
Get this straight! God has an escape plan for those He loves and who love Him. For thos that want to ignore it, go right ahead. But in my mind, that would be very foolish.

Nowhere it is said that there will be a removal to Heaven ...You have to twist the meaning of the word APOSTASY which mean a departure from the Faith ...Remember what you wrote some years ago :''If i have to go through the Tribulation i will not serve a God like that''=APOSTASY ...---->Don't pray to hard that the Tribulation begin soon !

7th Trumpet Rapture?

My dog Micah in the pic

Food For Thought

Newbie

Food For Thought

Newbie

Food For Thought

Well-Known Member

Lamad

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Lamad

Lamad

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Lamad

My dog Micah in the pic

Lamad

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads