Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Oseas · Mar 30, 2018

ClementofA said:
It's opposed to the mythical horror fantasy that the mercy of Love Omnipotent expires like a carton of milk at the moment of death.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

The Most High God and Almighty is Love really, but He is ALSO a devouring , a consuming, FIRE. I know God Father as He really is, Love or a devouring Fire.

You have heard to speak about Him, but you do not know Him, nor will.

Oseas · Mar 30, 2018

ClementofA said:
Do you realize this translation refutes your position:
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be TORMENTED day and night FOR EVER AND EVER. (Rev.20:10)
12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Verily, verily, I tel unto you that now you are saying thi things, but when you be there then you will see and know how long it is and will it be, surely.

Oseas · Mar 30, 2018

Der Alter said:
All I see is a lot of unsupported personal opinion, nothing which addresses my post in any meaningful way or refutes anything I posted. Repeating that something is satanic over and over does not make it so. Evidence? Substantiation? Documentation?

I work with the Word of God, by the way, the Word is God. There is not more Substantial Evidence and Documentation than the Word of God, as is written in Scriptures. There are three that bear record in heaven (unfortunatelly you know not what is heaven), the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One.

ClementofA · Mar 31, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
But I think that we can be certain there is no life after the lake of fire because the bible does not speak of it.

I beg to differ...1 Cor.15:22-28; Rev.5:13, Rom.5:18-19; etc

Jordan Henshaw said:
I think that if God was going to save every last person through some purgatory-like place, there would be mention of it in the Bible. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Yet ECT & endless annihilation are never associated with the LOF. So it begs the question. What is it's purpose & the destiny of those who go there. Why are they being tormented? Is it purposely, sadistically. What are the purpose of these torments? Many passages show us that God's punishments are corrective (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5) & salvific.

Jordan Henshaw said:
You're operating entirely in the time period that happens after the story of the bible takes place.

I operate according to Scripture, as listed above. You seem quite into the so-called last book of most English Bible versions. What about the first book & first chapter:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)

Jordan Henshaw said:
You're saying that everyone eventually gets saved after everything that happens in Revelation has happened, right?

No, i'm saying he that has an honestly open mind & an ear to hear, read & study this, which has been ignored from when it was posted earlier in this thread:

As in Adam all die

Jordan Henshaw said:
But what you can never do is read the book of Revelation front to cover and with a sane mind, conclude that God will save everyone.

I already posted the following before. It was ignored.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 31, 2018

ClementofA said:
I beg to differ...1 Cor.15:22-28; Rev.5:13, Rom.5:18-19; etc

The ONLY one of those verses that is even remotely relevant to what I was asking for is Revelation 20:5-15. You would have to be totally out of your mind to honestly believe that verse is talking about life after the second death. You would have to be insane.

ClementofA said:
endless annihilation are never associated with the LOF.

Really? It is called the "Second Death". What happens to someone that dies and gets turned to ashes? They die and continue to be dead for all eternity. Unless they are resurrected. Do we have a verse saying they will be resurrected again? Nope. But we do have a verse that says the wicked will receive "eternal" destruction, "eternal" punishment, and "everlasting" shame. SO that makes perfect sense.

ClementofA said:
Many passages show us that God's punishments are corrective (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5) & salvific.

Did you even read 1 Corinthians 5:4-5, or are you just coming up with random passages now? Some of his punishments might very well be corrective, but to use that to say that ALL of them must be corrective is an EXTREME logical fallacy. I think you have gotten to the point now where you will use any shred of evidence to support your argument, with little to zero regard for veracity or honesty.

ClementofA said:
No, i'm saying he that has an honestly open mind & an ear to hear, read & study this, which has been ignored from when it was posted earlier in this thread:

Now you are completely sidestepping the question to talk about nothing. The question was, do you believe that everyone eventually gets saved after everything that happens in Revelation has occurred?

ClementofA said:
Rev.5:13

OK? What is your point? What does this have to do with what happens after the lake of fire?

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Do you honestly believe that every last human will eventually be saved in a purgatory-like place, post lake of fire, or are you just trolling us?

Serious question.

Because not a single one of your arguments holds an ounce of water for more than a few seconds. Most never held a drop of water at all.

Debating Universalism is like debating a flat-earther. I can never win because they will always find a way to squirm out of every problem by making up something new, and they will explain away as much scripture as they need to with zero regard for reason, and they can warp anything and everything beyond the point of recognition and somehow still think their interpretation is reasonable.

DavidPT · Mar 31, 2018

ClementofA said:
What does that have to do with this:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This passage in 2 Thessalonians 2 refutes your theory that verse 4 applies universally to every single person, regardless.

The former is saying this---Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth---compared with the latter---And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Premise 1:---1 Timothy 2:4: "God who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2:---2 Thessalonians 2:9-11: "God who desires that some people, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Conclusion: All obviously will not be saved, otherwise God contradicts Himself occasionally, thus making Him a liar in the process, which then contradicts the fact that God can't lie.

Universalism is debunked. Just accept it and move on to the truth instead. What universalism fails to take into account is this, that being man's free will to choose his or her ultimate destiny. Universalism infers man does not have the ability to choose things for himself. What eventually happened in the garden of Eden, for one, proves otherwise.

ClementofA · Mar 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This passage in 2 Thessalonians 2 refutes your theory that verse 4 applies universally to every single person, regardless.

A better translation is:

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God
send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be saved...at that time. No reference is made to how long they will be punished, if such is corrective or
purely sadistic, or final destiny.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Mar 31, 2018

Annihilation theory...verses answered

Malachi 4:3 doesn't that promote annihilation

ClementofA · Apr 1, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
The ONLY one of those verses that is even remotely relevant to what I was asking for is Revelation 20:5-15. You would have to be totally out of your mind to honestly believe that verse is talking about life after the second death. You would have to be insane.

I didn't list Rev.20:5-15. I did list 3 other passages of Scripture.

Jordan Henshaw said:
Really? It is called the "Second Death". What happens to someone that dies and gets turned to ashes?

There is no passage in Revelation that says the lake of fire is associated with ashes.

Jordan Henshaw said:
They die and continue to be dead for all eternity.

Scripture?

Jordan Henshaw said:
Unless they are resurrected. Do we have a verse saying they will be resurrected again? Nope.

1 Cor.15:22-28

Resurrected from what...physical death? Spiritual death?

Jordan Henshaw said:
But we do have a verse that says the wicked will receive "eternal" destruction, "eternal" punishment, and "everlasting" shame. SO that makes perfect sense.

The same Greek word deceptively & wrongly rendered "eternal" by endless punishment biased cloned English versions is widely known to be used of finite duration, e.g.

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

So the word actually opposes all endless punishment POVs, as there were better words & expressions (e.g. no end) to use if God really believed in endless punishment. So He doesn't.

Furthermore, the so-called "eternal" punishment (Mt.25:41) is equal to that of Rev.20:10, which is torments "for ever and ever" (in KJV), which would refute your annihilation theory.

Jordan Henshaw said:
Did you even read 1 Corinthians 5:4-5, or are you just coming up with random passages now? Some of his punishments might very well be corrective,

There's no "might be" about it. Just read your Bible. Any translation.

Jordan Henshaw said:
but to use that to say that ALL of them must be corrective is an EXTREME logical fallacy.

Strawman. Such was never stated. Though you can't prove otherwise. OTOH many passages show God's corrective punishment.

Jordan Henshaw said:
I think you have gotten to the point now where you will use any shred of evidence to support your argument, with little to zero regard for veracity or honesty.

I'll happily let the objective readers judge the veracity of that claim.

Jordan Henshaw said:
Now you are completely sidestepping the question to talk about nothing. The question was, do you believe that everyone eventually gets saved after everything that happens in Revelation has occurred?

At what point does "everything that happens in Revelation has occurred" occur? At Rev.22 when there is still a need for "healing" of the nations? Or is it when everyone is worshipping God (Rev.5:13)? Or is it when ALL are made new (Rev.21)? Or is it when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26), including the 2nd death & those dead in it, so that all in Adam have be made new "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22)? Or is when all are reconciled to God (Col.1:20)? Or is it when everyone confesses Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil.2:9-11; Isa 45:21-25)? Or is it while those in the LOF are still being tormented (Rev.14:9-11; 20:10) - but that would refute your annihilation theory.

The abolishing of death (1 Cor.15:25-26) means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Annihilation theory...verses answered

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Jordan Henshaw · Apr 1, 2018

ClementofA said:
Annihilation theory...verses answered

Malachi 4:3 doesn't that promote annihilation

HAPPY EASTER!!! :clap:

Look, Chuck, I don't have a need to prove endless annihilation when debating a Universalist, OK? Why?

THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THERE IS LIFE AFTER THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!

It just doesn't, OK? There is NO VERSE that talks about the punished unrighteous people coming back to life. There just isn't. That concept is COMPLETELY foreign to the scriptures.

The burden of proof is VERY much on you.

You can use verses that talk about the nature of God's salvation to try to say that it is for everyone, and therefore everyone must be saved, but if you can't find a single verse that actually directly supports your theory, then the concept is merely speculation and simply is NOT scriptural.

This entire insane theology you are trying to support is centered around a ridiculous story of people living and dying over and over again in purgatory for as long as it takes for every last person to love God.

Do you honestly not understand why it is wrong to add stories to the Bible?

"The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire...I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll." - Revelation

"After being cast into the lake of fire, the evildoers will rise again to a second life; their second chance. They will live again and will once again be given the opportunity to accept Jesus. If they don't, they will be punished with death a third time. Then they will be resurrected a third time for a third chance. This process will continue on for as long as it takes for every last human to accept God's payment for sin." - Clementians 1:1-3

HAPPY EASTER!!! :clap:

Jordan Henshaw · Apr 1, 2018

ClementofA said:
I didn't list Rev.20:5-15. I did list 3 other passages of Scripture.

Oh, OK. My apologies. I typed in 5:15, and because it doesn't exist, Google apparently gave me a completely different verse to look at.

But you do realize that this occurs before the lake of fire, right? So this verse is utterly USELESS to you. The lake of fire is in chapter 20, and this verse is in chapter 5.

ClementofA said:
There is no passage in Revelation that says the lake of fire is associated with ashes.

You're right. Good job.

ClementofA said:
1 Cor.15:22-28

Resurrected from what...physical death? Spiritual death?

Holy cow. Again, the verses that say "all", or "the world".

I am asking for a verse that talks about the people who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

ClementofA said:
The same Greek word deceptively & wrongly rendered "eternal" by endless punishment biased cloned English versions is widely known to be used of finite duration, e.g.

We've already gone through this. All three words for eternal can mean both finite and infinite. We have already gone through this.

Jordan Henshaw · Apr 1, 2018

ClementofA said:
At what point does "everything that happens in Revelation has occurred" occur? At Rev.22 when there is still a need for "healing" of the nations? Or is it when everyone is worshipping God (Rev.5:13)? Or is it when ALL are made new (Rev.21)? Or is it when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26), including the 2nd death & those dead in it, so that all in Adam have be made new "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22)? Or is when all are reconciled to God (Col.1:20)? Or is it when everyone confesses Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil.2:9-11; Isa 45:21-25)?

Hmmmm. Notice how none of those verses mention purgatory or any remotely similar concept?

Because we both agree (I think) that the wicked are dealt punishment that is finite in duration (but in my view eternal in result) via the "lake of fire", or "second death", I was asking you this question to clarify that the second resurrection of the wicked happens after they are cast into lake of fire, effectively, after the events recorded in Revelation.

I am simply trying understand your view chronologically in relation to the rest of scripture.

I am simply giving you a chance to flesh out and elaborate your view.

Here is my view:

What I believe is that the unrighteous are born, live a sinful life (Romans 3:23), die an earthly death (Hebrews 9:27), are resurrected on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:13), are judged according to their works (Revelation 20:13), weep and gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28), are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), quickly lose consciousness, and perish once their sin has been burned up (Luke 12:48), and are reduced to ashes (Malachi 4:3). Finally, God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), the former things will pass away, and God will wipe every tear from our eyes (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 65:17). Finally, the righteous will eat of the Tree of Life to life forever (Revelation 2:7). The end (Revelation 22:21).

I'm pretty sure that the Universalist view is this:

The unrighteous are born, live a sinful life (Romans 3:23), die an earthly death (Hebrews 9:27), are resurrected on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:13), are judged according to their works (Revelation 20:13), weep and gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28), are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), quickly lose consciousness, and perish once their sin has been burned up (Luke 12:48), and are reduced to ashes (Malachi 4:3). Finally, God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), the former things will pass away, and God will wipe every tear from our eyes (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 65:17). Finally, the righteous will eat of the Tree of Life to life forever (Revelation 2:7). Then, the wicked will be resurrected once more and will have the opportunity to accept Jesus (no direct scriptural support). If they again fail to do so, they will be once again judged, and the process will repeat itself over and over until every last person is saved (zero scriptural support).

Keep in mind that nothing prior to the "Then" contradicts Universalism in any way, as far as I can tell.

I am asking you to put your story on a timeline. That is all. If you can't perform a simple task such as this, then you have no business debating it here, because you then have zero credibility.

Let's hear what you believe in a detail, chronological fashion...

ClementofA · Apr 1, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THERE IS LIFE AFTER THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!

Romans 5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28, Rev.5:13, etc.

Jordan Henshaw said:
There is NO VERSE that talks about the punished unrighteous people coming back to life.

See above.

Jordan Henshaw said:
The burden of proof is VERY much on you.

God is LOVE OMNIPOTENT. Not a sadist or unfeeling terminator machine with a short fuse like many people who create a god after their own image.

Jordan Henshaw said:
You can use verses that talk about the nature of God's salvation to try to say that it is for everyone, and therefore everyone must be saved, but if you can't find a single verse that actually directly supports your theory, then the concept is merely speculation and simply is NOT scriptural.

A single verse? Here's a few dozen:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Jordan Henshaw said:
This entire insane theology you are trying to support is centered around a ridiculous story of people living and dying over and over again in purgatory for as long as it takes for every last person to love God.

Do you honestly not understand why it is wrong to add stories to the Bible?

Strawman. I've never stated the Bible says that. And you've never showed any evidence that there is not some truth to it. Where does Scripture say anyone is endlessly annihilated in the LOF? Nowhere. Nada. Where does Scripture ever say those being tormented in the LOF are not suffering for their own good, rather than for someone's personal sadistic pleasures? Where does Scripture ever say that such torments are not corrective, as many Scriptures indicate God's punishments are? Scripture says God is as a fuller's soap & a refining fire (Mal.3:2).

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

ClementofA · Apr 1, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
But you do realize that this occurs before the lake of fire, right? So this verse is utterly USELESS to you. The lake of fire is in chapter 20, and this verse is in chapter 5.

What other time can it refer to except a time after those cast into the lake of fire of Revelation 20:

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Jordan Henshaw said:
Holy cow. Again, the verses that say "all", or "the world".

"The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).

Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22). How many were in Adam? That includes those who will go to the lake of fire. They will be "in Christ" (v.22), & God "all in all" (v.28), so all who were in Adam & in the lake of fire will be saved.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Jordan Henshaw said:
I am asking for a verse that talks about the people who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

We've already gone through this. All three words for eternal can mean both finite and infinite. We have already gone through this.

Yet you didn't answer the following, especially the remark re refuting your theory:

The same Greek word deceptively & wrongly rendered "eternal" by endless punishment biased cloned English versions is widely known to be used of finite duration, e.g.

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

So the word actually opposes all endless punishment POVs, as there were better words & expressions (e.g. no end) to use if God really believed in endless punishment. So He doesn't.

Furthermore, the so-called "eternal" punishment (Mt.25:41) is equal to that of Rev.20:10, which is torments "for ever and ever" (in KJV), which would refute your annihilation theory.

ClementofA · Apr 1, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
Hmmmm. Notice how none of those verses mention purgatory or any remotely similar concept?

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

That was spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after the passage. Similarly:

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour of which he is unaware. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Compare:

Mal.3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Isa.45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, she calleth herfriends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Jordan Henshaw said:
I'm pretty sure that the Universalist view is this:

The unrighteous are born, live a sinful life (Romans 3:23), die an earthly death (Hebrews 9:27), are resurrected on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:13), are judged according to their works (Revelation 20:13), weep and gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28), are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), quickly lose consciousness, and perish once their sin has been burned up (Luke 12:48), and are reduced to ashes (Malachi 4:3).

Many, perhaps most, Christians who advocate the Scriptures teach universalism ascribe to consciousness after death as per Lk.16:19-31 & likewise in the lake of fire.

Jordan Henshaw · Apr 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
What other time can it refer to except a time after those cast into the lake of fire of Revelation 20:

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Yeah, so you have still miserably failed to actually put it on a timeline. It doesn't seem as though you've even attempted to prove that verse 5 happens at a specific time. Because it mentions "the lamb that was slain" it must be talking about something occurring after the lake of fire, and by this same verse we also know that every single human that ever lived must certainly be conscious and must still exist? Huh? What? Are you kidding? I mean, come on. This is getting to be completely silly.

Does Revelation 5 say that everyone is saved? No.

Does it say that every creature on planet earth will praise God? Yes.

Does it say that birds and lizards will praise God? Pretty much.

If you can somehow twist your mind enough to use this verse to prove Universalism, you must also believe that God will "save" birds and lizards as well. Or else you must concede what it painfully obvious to everyone with a clear mind - that you don't have to be a saved Christian to praise God.

ClementofA said:
Romans 5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28, Rev.5:13, etc.

Uh... Chuck? None of those verses talk about life after the lake of fire.

ClementofA said:
God is LOVE OMNIPOTENT. Not a sadist or unfeeling terminator machine with a short fuse like many people who create a god after their own image.

So you completely reject the idea that the burden of proof is on you? Are you out of your mind?

ClementofA said:
A single verse? Here's a few dozen:

Holy cow. Yes. I have already looked at those verses. THEY DO NOT TALK ABOUT PEOPLE COMING BACK TO LIFE AFTER THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ClementofA said:
Strawman. I've never stated the Bible says that.

OK, well that's what I'm trying to figure out. You still REFUSE to make it perfectly clear exactly what you believe in a chronological fashion because IT IS ALL MADE UP and is NOT BACKED DIRECTLY by scripture.

ClementofA said:
Where does Scripture ever say those being tormented in the LOF are not suffering for their own good, rather than for someone's personal sadistic pleasures? Where does Scripture ever say that such torments are not corrective, as many Scriptures indicate God's punishments are?

It doesn't talk about that at all. It doesn't support or deny your position in this particular area. It doesn't talk about it at all.

ClementofA said:
Yet you didn't answer the following, especially the remark re refuting your theory:

The same Greek word deceptively & wrongly rendered "eternal" by endless punishment biased cloned English versions is widely known to be used of finite duration, e.g.

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

So the word actually opposes all endless punishment POVs, as there were better words & expressions (e.g. no end) to use if God really believed in endless punishment. So He doesn't.

Furthermore, the so-called "eternal" punishment (Mt.25:41) is equal to that of Rev.20:10, which is torments "for ever and ever" (in KJV), which would refute your annihilation theory.

Refuting my theory, huh?

How exactly do any of these verses "refute my theory"? Is it because of the words for eternal? Are you out of your mind? WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Eternal" has ZERO bearing on this discussion because ALL THREE Greek words can be used to describe FINITE and INFINITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you honesty not yet grasp this incredibly simple concept?

ClementofA said:
Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

That was spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after the passage. Similarly:

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour of which he is unaware. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Compare:

Mal.3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Isa.45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, she calleth herfriends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

I don't see any verses here that talk about people coming back to life after the lake of fire.

ClementofA · Apr 3, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
Yeah, so you have still miserably failed to actually put it on a timeline. It doesn't seem as though you've even attempted to prove that verse 5 happens at a specific time. Because it mentions "the lamb that was slain" it must be talking about something occurring after the lake of fire, and by this same verse we also know that every single human that ever lived must certainly be conscious and must still exist? Huh? What? Are you kidding? I mean, come on. This is getting to be completely silly.

Does Revelation 5 say that everyone is saved? No.

Does it say that every creature on planet earth will praise God? Yes.

Does it say that birds and lizards will praise God? Pretty much.

If you can somehow twist your mind enough to use this verse to prove Universalism, you must also believe that God will "save" birds and lizards as well. Or else you must concede what it painfully obvious to everyone with a clear mind - that you don't have to be a saved Christian to praise God.

Uh... Chuck? None of those verses talk about life after the lake of fire.

So you completely reject the idea that the burden of proof is on you? Are you out of your mind?

Holy cow. Yes. I have already looked at those verses. THEY DO NOT TALK ABOUT PEOPLE COMING BACK TO LIFE AFTER THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, well that's what I'm trying to figure out. You still REFUSE to make it perfectly clear exactly what you believe in a chronological fashion because IT IS ALL MADE UP and is NOT BACKED DIRECTLY by scripture.

It doesn't talk about that at all. It doesn't support or deny your position in this particular area. It doesn't talk about it at all.

Refuting my theory, huh?

How exactly do any of these verses "refute my theory"? Is it because of the words for eternal? Are you out of your mind? WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Eternal" has ZERO bearing on this discussion because ALL THREE Greek words can be used to describe FINITE and INFINITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you honesty not yet grasp this incredibly simple concept?

I don't see any verses here that talk about people coming back to life after the lake of fire.

May God bless your life.

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Der Alte · Apr 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
May God bless your life.
24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

This verse does not support UR but contradicts it. If salvation was a done deal why did the writer say "perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth? Instead of "God will certainly grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth?"

Jordan Henshaw · Apr 3, 2018

Der Alter said:
This verse does not support UR but contradicts it. If salvation was a done deal why did the writer say "perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth? Instead of "God will certainly grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth?"

You completely missed the point. He was talking about my aggressiveness.

Der Alte · Apr 3, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
You completely missed the point. He was talking about my aggressiveness.

I was aware of that but that is between you and him. En passant so to speak I noticed while he was trying to prove one thing his proof text actually disproved one of his major arguing points.

Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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