Jordan Henshaw

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Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?
Premise 1: God wants every last person to be saved.
Premise 2: God does everything that he wants to do.
Premise 3: God wants to save everyone.
Conclusion: All will be saved.

False. Premise 1 has nothing to do with premise 2, and premise 3, necessary for the conclusion, is not substantiated by any scripture.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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The text indicates it is the soul that dies.
The interesting thing is that the entire concept of a soul existing and living apart from a body is entirely foreign to the scriptures altogether. Usually the Greek word translated to "soul" is translated as "life". I think the concept of the immortal soul came from Plato. It certainly didn't come from scripture.
 
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ClementofA

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Allow me to clarify: The idea that purgatory, life after the Lake of Fire, a second resurrection, or second chance after death on this earth is scriptural is dead wrong every day of the week.

Because you say so? Who are you? God?


Also, because the vast, vast, vast majority of people disagree with you means that the burden of proof is on you.

1. An empty unproven assertion. 2. Where does Scripture say that. 3. Tell that to Noah. 4. Apply that to your own beliefs, e.g. annihilation. 5. Appeal to man's opinions. Tsk tsk. 6. "Let God be true & every man a liar" (The Bible, Romans).
 
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ClementofA

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Premise 1: God wants every last person to be saved.
Premise 2: God does everything that he wants to do.
Premise 3: God wants to save everyone.
Conclusion: All will be saved.

False. Premise 1 has nothing to do with premise 2, and premise 3, necessary for the conclusion, is not substantiated by any scripture.

What does that have to do with this:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Because you say so? Who are you? God?
Um... because that is a verifiable fact. One that you have yet to contest. The Bible doesn't say anything about chicken tenders either. That is also a verifiable fact.

1. An empty unproven assertion. 2. Where does Scripture say that. 3. Tell that to Noah. 4. Apply that to your own beliefs, e.g. annihilation. 5. Appeal to man's opinions. Tsk tsk. 6. "Let God be true & every man a liar" (The Bible, Romans).
Are you challenging the idea that the vast majority of Christians are not Universalist? I thought this was a given, but if you disagree, I would be more than happy to find some stats or something. But I think that the fact that it is not even considered to be orthodox on this site says enough on this matter.

What does that have to do with this:
Your first and second premise were unrelated. Because God wants all men to be saved and because God does everything He wants to do cannot yield your conclusion. Think about it. The first premise basically says that he wants other people to do something - to accept him, and the second is talking about what he will do himself. So you need the third premise in order to get to your conclusion. The third premise is however not substantiated by scripture, so the conclusion fails.
 
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ClementofA

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You can debate the meaning of aion all day,

Do you realize this translation refutes your position:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be TORMENTED day and night FOR EVER AND EVER. (Rev.20:10)

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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Oseas

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Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).
Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).
"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?
Conclusion: All will be saved
True or false?

FALSE COMPLETELLY.
Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... (Comments: The spirit of lie, using the letters of the Holy Scriptures (1 Timothy 2:4), of the same manner Satan used it on the temptation of JESUS (Mat.4:v.6) - 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - yea, the spirit of lie or spirit of darkness, using the letter of the Bible, he "says all will be saved", but he should come to the knowledge of the Truth that says ALSO through 1 Timothy 4:v.1-2 that the Spirit (here the Spirit of God) speaks, EXPRESSLY, that in this present time some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.


Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Yes, God does all He disires (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6), so as He says by His Word (the Word is God) through the King David (Psalms 5:5-6&4), The foolish (or mad) shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:
the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?
Conclusion: All will be saved
True or false?

FALSE COMPLETELLY

Psalms 1:5-6 -
5 The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. Psa.5:9-10 - 9 -
9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness;
their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
10 Destroy thou them, O God;
let them fall
by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions.


Revelation 6:15t017

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the Great Day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This Great Day has already arrived, that is this exact seventh and last millennium (a Day with the Lord is as a thousand years), that is the exact Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ(2Cor.5:10), and the Millennium of Vengeance, the seventh and last Day.

Who is worthy to enter in the Kingdom of God which will be established on the Earth in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millenniu or seventh and last Day?
 
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Oseas

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Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?


FALSE COMPLETELLY

Psalms 1:5-6 - 5 The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. Psa.5:9-10 - 9 -
9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
10 Destroy thou them, O God;
let them fall
by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions.


Revelation 6:15t017
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the Great Day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This Great Day has already arrived, that is this exact seventh and last millennium (a Day with the Lord is as a thousand years), that is the exact Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ(2Cor.5:10), and the Millennium of Vengeance, the seventh and last Day.

Who is worthy to enter in the Kingdom of God which will be established on the Earth in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millenniu or seventh and last Day?
 
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ClementofA

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Um... because that is a verifiable fact.

Again the arguments i've presented in this thread against your position have been mostly unanswered & entirely unrefuted. So who are you trying to convince with such lame comments, yourself?

Are you challenging the idea that the vast majority of Christians are not Universalist? I thought this was a given, but if you disagree, I would be more than happy to find some stats or something. But I think that the fact that it is not even considered to be orthodox on this site says enough on this matter.

What time in history are you referring to. The dark & middle ages, or this:

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).


(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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The first premise basically says that he wants other people to do something - to accept him, and the second is talking about what he will do himself.

No, the 2nd says He will do everything He desires. That "everything" includes the subset of everything, namely the desire to save all (as per the first statement):

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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What time in history are you referring to. The dark & middle ages, or this:

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).


(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
I honestly have no idea what this has to do with anything. Are you seriously trying to argue that the majority of Christians today are Universalist?

Again the arguments i've presented in this thread against your position have been mostly unanswered & entirely unrefuted. So who are you trying to convince with such lame comments, yourself?
Are you seriously trying to argue that the Bible actually mentions purgatory, life after the Lake of Fire, a second resurrection, or a second chance after death on this earth?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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No, the 2nd says He will do everything He desires. That "everything" includes the subset of everything, namely the desire to save all (as per the first statement):
WHOA!!!! :noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign:

ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!! :noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign:

Hold on right there!!! Brakes, please!

"namely the desire to save all"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Does ANY verse in the Bible say that God desires to save all?

No?!?!?!?!?!?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Do you realize this translation refutes your position:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be TORMENTED day and night FOR EVER AND EVER. (Rev.20:10)

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
Good work over there. Some good points. I totally agree that the Devil and false prophet won't literally be tormented unto all eternity.

Now what does this have to do with your fantastical yarn about the dead wicked being resurrected a second time for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc. chances until they all are saved?
 
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ClementofA

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WHOA!!!! :noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign:

ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!! :noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign::noentrysign:

Hold on right there!!! Brakes, please!

"namely the desire to save all"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Does ANY verse in the Bible say that God desires to save all?

No?!?!?!?!?!?

Can i take your posts seriously? Did you not read this the last few times you responded to it:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved
 
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Oseas

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Do you realize this translation refutes your position:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be TORMENTED day and night FOR EVER AND EVER. (Rev.20:10)

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

The battle now is against a satanic trinity, after the end of this millennium there will be another battle only against Satan, exclusively.

Here goes who are the satanic trinity against which the battle has already begun. Revelation 16:13to16 -
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon (a Red Dragon), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.

14 For they (the Dragon, and the Beast, and the False Prophet) are the spirits of devils (demons), working miracles, which go forth unto
the kings of the earth (the true believers - the body of Christ - the true Church) and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of God Almighty.

15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev. 12:12 - Woe to the inhabiters of the earth (Israel) and of the sea (Gentile nations)! for the Devil (
the Red Dragon) is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
 
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Oseas

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Can i take your posts seriously? Did you not read this the last few times you responded to it:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Firstly, we must consider that the first condition the world be saved, it was established by God through the sacrifice of Jesus to all generations. By the way, it was the last sacrifice that God could offer for the salvation of the world, since then there was not and is in fact no more any sacrifice for this purpose, that is the salvation of the world, and this since the beginning, be Jews and Gentiles, for there is no respect of persons with God.

Second, we must consider also that though the sacrifice of JESUS had been for all mankind in all generations, this did not mean or do not mean absolutely that the WORLD will generically be saved as you say in your conclusion. It is not true, but false. In fact, the world will not be saved. JESUS was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. JESUS was a Jewish, particularly, He came unto His own, and His own received Him not, and it until the present time, except some of them.

God Father sent JESUS, in other words, the Word was made flesh, not to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. But it does not mean the whole world will be saved, as you presume and preach in accord your presumptions.

The question is: He that has believed in the person of JESUS (as say Scriptures) is not condemned, but he that has believed not is condemned already, condemned to eternal perdition, because there is not more any chance to salvation after this Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ.

JESUS in His pray to the Father, said: (John 17:2-3&9&15-17&25-26)
2 As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy Word is truth. (The Word is God)

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


So, your conclusion false completelly.

 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Can i take your posts seriously? Did you not read this the last few times you responded to it:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved
Yes. I read it. The problem with it is that while premise 1 and 2 are true, they don't support the conclusion because they aren't related to each other. Premise 1 talks about what God wants other people to do (accept Him) and premise 2 talks about what He will do himself. There is a HUGE difference between accomplishing everything you desire to do and forcing other people to do what you desire them to do.

Essentially, by using premise 1 and 2 to support the conclusion of, "all will be saved", you rob everyone of Free Will. Instead of the human deciding whether or not to trust in God, God does it for them because He will do everything he wants to do and he will somehow force every human to obey him, because he wants to save everyone? But where is the verse that says he wants to save everyone?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Just think about it critically.

The logic doesn't flow.
 
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ClementofA

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ClementofA

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Yes. I read it. The problem with it is that while premise 1 and 2 are true, they don't support the conclusion because they aren't related to each other. Premise 1 talks about what God wants other people to do (accept Him) and premise 2 talks about what He will do himself. There is a HUGE difference between accomplishing everything you desire to do and forcing other people to do what you desire them to do.

Essentially, by using premise 1 and 2 to support the conclusion of, "all will be saved", you rob everyone of Free Will. Instead of the human deciding whether or not to trust in God, God does it for them because He will do everything he wants to do and he will somehow force every human to obey him, because he wants to save everyone? But where is the verse that says he wants to save everyone?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Just think about it critically.

The logic doesn't flow.

Incorrect. It doesn't rule out free will. For example if Love Omnipotent continues to draw everyone till all choose Him of their free will, then all are saved without ruling out free will.

"Premise 1 talks about what God wants other people to do (accept Him) and premise 2 talks about what He will do himself."

No, both premises use the same Greek word, THELO. It is God's determined desire.

The 2nd premise says He will do everything He desires. That "everything" includes the subset of everything, namely the desire to save all (as per the first statement):

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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It's opposed to the mythical horror fantasy that the mercy of Love Omnipotent expires like a carton of milk at the moment of death.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
OK. I think I see where you're coming from.

You see all these verses that talk about how God came to save the world, how his love never fails, and how all the nations will be blessed etc... and conclude that He must therefore save everyone, because that's just who he is.

You see the passages that talk about the wicked being punished with a second, and reason that because it doesn't explicitly ever say they will never rise again, and because all the words used for eternal destruction/death/punishment are ambiguous, their punishment of death actually does end and they are resurrected again and again until they eventually accept Jesus.

So the verses you linked to do seem to paint a picture of love for all people. And it is love for all people. Jesus did come to save the whole world.

We agree that there is no eternal torment and that none of the words used for eternal necessarily by themselves mean trillions of years.

We agree that God will punish the wicked with death, destruction, and cessation of consciousness.

We agree that salvation is open to every last person.

But I think that we can be certain there is no life after the lake of fire because the bible does not speak of it. I think that if God was going to save every last person through some purgatory-like place, there would be mention of it in the Bible. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

But I think it is foolish to add an entire, massive chapter to the story the Bible tells. I don't think it is a good idea to add entirely new concepts and ideas to the Bible.

You're operating entirely in the time period that happens after the story of the bible takes place. You're saying that everyone eventually gets saved after everything that happens in Revelation has happened, right? And you're using those verses you linked to to prove that God must save everyone, and because he obviously doesn't do it inside the time period of the Bible, he must do it after the story of the Bible, right?

You're not just in deep water, you are at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Who are you to add to what the Bible says?
Who are you to speak for God?
Who are you to speculate on what happens after the book of Revelation?

Because I can't get "eternal" and because any verse I throw at you that talks about how the wicked will be cut off and ended doesn't technically, necessarily under all circumstances mean forever and forever and forever, I can't prove you to be absolutely wrong. You will always find a way to squirm out of it. You will always find a way to warp scripture to rob it of its meaning. You will always jump through as many hoops as you possibly can to interpret verses in a way that is in line with Universalism.

But what you can never do is read the book of Revelation front to cover and with a sane mind, conclude that God will save everyone.

You just can't. That is impossible.

No amount of hoop-jumping and interpretive calisthenics can allow you to interpret the book of Revelation from a Universalist viewpoint. You must either concede that God is a deceitful liar who seeks to hide things from us by giving us only half the truth, or you must concede that the end of the wicked is indeed simply death.
 
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