How to bear witness to the truth of the Trinity

Arius · Mar 30, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Jesus Christ said this of Himself.
So did the LORD God.
Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Thank you again Doug, and yes, God is the one who saves us: John 3:16 is a good example, and this case it is our Lord, the King of kings, the son of God Word speaking.

{quote]In the book of John you will find Jesus calling Himself "I AM" 8:58[/quote]

John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Who capitalized I AM, did God?
I don't see where Jesus 'calls himself' I AM? He simply stated that he existed before Abraham, so he was right in line with all the other things he said about himself, like: "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end."
You will never hear God say that about Himself for He is Infinite and Eternal, no beginning nor end.
But you do keep giving me good examples of Religious Indoctrination, where we read what we've been taught into what's there, .. I know, I was there.
If I say: "I am hungry", and someone capitalizes the words 'I Am', as in "I AM hungry", someone could accuse me of claiming to be God too: "Arius said 'I AM'"!!

This is what God said about Himself in Exodus 3.

Exodus 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
.. 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

God didn't say: "Tell them that; before Abraham was, I am has sent me to you", but that "He is 'I Am' the God of Abraham".

The evidence that Jesus is God is overwhelming.

You haven't shown me one place yet from the Bible, unless, like in the rules and doctrines of Christianity, it is unquestionable!? In that case it's not evidence, but religious doctrine.

Your only evidence for Him not being the One true God is you say God cannot die.
How God can die and not die at the same time can only be true if it is God the Son who died and not God the Father.

Now all you have to do is find me a verse where it says, "God the Son", .. because I know nothing of the sort? But yes, Gods son Word, who became flesh who died, not God or any part of him, for He IS, there are no "parts" to Him, nor other "selves'.
If God was one body that was made up of many parts, as Christ's Church is, He would not last. God is NOT made up of many parts, or even three parts, where one third of him can die.

It was God who said.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn

Yes, just as Christ is in God, we are IN Christ. When they pierced Jesus, they pierced God, and when they persecute us, revile us, do all kinds of evil against us, .. they have done it to Jesus first, and if Jesus, then God Himself.
They can kill us, and even His son Jesus Christ, but not God. Us created beings God will raise, just as He raised His son Word aka Jesus Christ.

God sent His only begotten son into the world so he would declare the Father, his God and our God to us. Nowhere will you find that God came down and turned into a man and Satan was able to kill Him, that would be Satan's (wet) dream as is portrayed in the short film: "I Pet Goat II".

But as you can see, Satan did devise a way to kill God, even if it's only in the hearts and minds of man, whom he hates as much as he hates God.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches.
.. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
.. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own (like they adored Billy Graham). Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you (tries to poison you, kick you off Forums, kill you, etc.). 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.

I know both Him who sent His son Word into the world, and I know who the "Word" Jesus is, including myself. I know who I am (and no, I am not claiming to be God saying that) created in Gods image.

This image was created in both God, and His son Word's image, as God said in Genesis 1 "Let us make man in our image, .. " and this is clearly defined, revealed in John 1 who God was talking to; "the Word was with God", and in whose image we were created.
".. male and female He created them"
Adam represents the image of God, and Eve the son Word.

Just as Eve was taken out of/begotten of Adam, the son Word was begotten/taken out of God. This is all Scriptural, and makes perfect sense, you have to admit unlike the Trinity Doctrine.

Remember, God will never punish those who were raised in ignorance like we were for the past 1,700 years, but now the time has come where God is testing us who were raised in ignorance if we are truly for Christ or not, .. by revealing the truth behind this triune-gods doctrine.

It is by this revelation which is clearly defined in Scripture where we will be judged.
My dear Brother In Christ (I will call you that for now, because I know how thick that veil was over my eyes. But truth will clear it up, God promised, if we will seek, knock, bang down doors, and are willing to give up all (I have, I lost everyone, mother, father, church friends and even a big family of siblings). That is why He sent His son Word into the world, to be a light of the world (light is truth) and asked that we "follow him", the Way, the Truth and the Life.
But we know how the world loved the darkness as it did when he came into the world, and it does 2,000 years later, so I pray for every fellow Christian here, that they would not choose darkness, like those confusing doctrines over Gods Word!?

Also there is Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Can you show me an example of this?
My research shows that adding "im" to a noun makes the singular into plural just as in English adding an "s" to a noun makes that which is singular plural.

How could you, or anyone confuse Hebrews 1:8 - when right before it this is what it says:
Just remove the capitalization of 'He' when referring to Jesus:

Hebrews 1:God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

As for "im", a Jewish Scholar (who rejected Jesus as the Messiah) told me a long time ago that it can be either or. Remember that it was "Christians", including the Jews who knew only of Christianity that represented and held to the belief of Jesus Christ as Messiah. So it is very difficult to find a translation without the "Christian" doctrinal influence!

What version of the Bible is this? I see you have a be in there that I don't see in any versions.

No you would not, .. but good catch, I forgot to put it in parentheses (be). I can show you many added words, including omissions in the Ten Commandments that are not in the original, so I took the liberty from taking the Bible as a whole to put the "be" in there to make it more understandable, like we take the liberty to remove the name of the king when referring to, and explaining Lucifer/Satan.

example: Isaiah 14:4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:

Jesus did a lot of that when revealing Scripture where he was prophesied to come. Nowhere in there is the name Jesus;
John 4:26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am (He) he.” and I can also remove the capitalization of He, or where they have Jesus saying "Before Abraham was, I Am", .. to 'I am', like if I say: Before my son was, I am.

God bless you.

Arius · Mar 30, 2018

awitch said:
I'm forging my own path as I go.

Yes I see.
I've done a lot of hiking in very dangerous places, forging my own path too, very dangerous. One wrong step and a hundred foot drop on solid rocks.

In this case, why not take that narrow but straight path, the only problem you will run into on the way to it is that so few people have traveled it that it's very hard to find.

I can help you find it, .. matter of fact, I can see you crossing this narrow path right as we speak!
"Hellooo awitch! Over here buddy!"

Planet drownings, firebombing cities, lots of other death and destruction, priority of commandments, slavery, capital punishment for non-crimes, and the list just goes on. I'm sure we could have a thread for every one of them but I've already heard plenty of supposed justifications for it.

Yes, .. the wages of sin is death, and in the OT God makes this very clear.
What do you mean "non-crimes"? What you consider non-crimes, or what the Bible considers non-crime, because today, pointing out criminal activity can be a crime, like calling homosexuality a crime, and abomination can cost you your job or worse!

Snakes can't really talk.

But birds can?

Why?
There are multiple Pagans here with varying beliefs and as far as I know we get along fine with our differences. Years ago when I was part of a group, we had Pagans of all sorts of different traditions practicing together and there was never a problem.

Yes, it does seem all good and right, just like long time ago in the Days of Noah, they all got together and started to build a tower to reach God, all went just swell till God decided to ruin it all, right?
Or like in the Days of Lot, everything was cool in the city, people were having fun and 'loved' (Eros) each other until those two Angels of the Lord showed up, and refused to give it up to the men of the city, .. right?

Or like todays "Burning (the) Man" event in the Nevada desert, is all about:

(Images may be subject to copy right, .. may be, .. my nephew goes to theses events)

.. right?
I guess it all depends what one considers "no problem", .. like "Do as Thou Wilt" seem to work just fine today, .. except if you took the Bible and shared the Word of God at this event, then things may not go right, .. ?? I wonder, maybe I should go with my nephew to the next one and see how they receive the God of the Bible? I mean they have thousands of gods represented there, so the response just might be positive!?

awitch · Mar 30, 2018

Arius said:
Yes I see.
I've done a lot of hiking in very dangerous places, forging my own path too, very dangerous. One wrong step and a hundred foot drop on solid rocks.

After 20 years of hiking, I think it's only dangerous to jealous gods.

In this case, why not take that narrow but straight path, the only problem you will run into on the way to it is that so few people have traveled it that it's very hard to find.

I imagine you haven't heard the song, "Summerland" by Emerald Rose.

I can help you find it, .. matter of fact, I can see you crossing this narrow path right as we speak!
"Hellooo awitch! Over here buddy!"

Yes, .. the wages of sin is death, and in the OT God makes this very clear.

We're all going to die sometime.

What do you mean "non-crimes"? What you consider non-crimes, or what the Bible considers non-crime, because today, pointing out criminal activity can be a crime, like calling homosexuality a crime, and abomination can cost you your job or worse!

If a god thinks collecting sticks on a particular day of the week is a crime punishable by death, then I'm not interested in that god. The same applies for two consenting adults in a romantic relationship who happen to be of the same gender.

[quoteBut birds can?[/quote]

Not the same way that humans do.
It's an evolutionary advantage for some birds to mimic the sounds they hear.
For example, blue jays can imitate hawk calls. If they get a reply, they know there's a hawk in the area and they can flee. If they don't it's probably safe to stick around.

Crows, among other species, are also known to mimic car alarms, chain saws, and other urban sounds.

It's also helpful for brood parasites, or birds who lay their eggs in the nest of another species of bird.

Yes, it does seem all good and right, just like long time ago in the Days of Noah, they all got together and started to build a tower to reach God, all went just swell till God decided to ruin it all, right?
Or like in the Days of Lot, everything was cool in the city, people were having fun and 'loved' (Eros) each other until those two Angels of the Lord showed up, and refused to give it up to the men of the city, .. right?

Or like todays "Burning (the) Man" event in the Nevada desert, is all about:

I don't understand what this has to do with the inability to have friends or associate with people of different beliefs, unless you're suggesting that god will consider you collateral damage when he eventually takes us out in some over the top violent act.

I guess it all depends what one considers "no problem", .. like "Do as Thou Wilt" seem to work just fine today, .. except if you took the Bible and shared the Word of God at this event, then things may not go right, .. ??

You seem to have left off the important part of that expression.

Doug Melven · Mar 30, 2018

Arius said:
How could you, or anyone confuse Hebrews 1:8 - when right before it this is what it says:
Just remove the capitalization of 'He' when referring to Jesus:

These are all the verses preceding verse 8.
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
1:7 And of the angels He saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
1:8 But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Notice who is taking in verses 5-8, that would be God the Father talking about the Son. And He calls Him God.

Arius said:
As for "im", a Jewish Scholar (who rejected Jesus as the Messiah)

And you don't think this Jewish scholar was biased?
How do you know he wasn't lying to you?
Remember, these people who were supposed to be so knowledgeable in the Scriptures missed there Messiah.

dlamberth · Mar 30, 2018

Arius said:
Yes I see.
I've done a lot of hiking in very dangerous places, forging my own path too, very dangerous. One wrong step and a hundred foot drop on solid rocks.

I've done a lot of hiking myself. In my younger days I have even climbed most of the mountains in Oregon and a fair number in Washington. There were always many paths up those mountains. But sometimes we jumped off the path and found our own way discovering many unexpected things on the way. But the glorious view was always wonderful when we made it to the top.

In this case, why not take that narrow but straight path, the only problem you will run into on the way to it is that so few people have traveled it that it's very hard to find.

In my own experience, I've discovered that the "narrow but straight path" limits a person's experience of life....or God. The narrow but straight path, for myself mind you, I've found has way too many limitations, separations and thou shall not's.

Arius · Mar 31, 2018

awitch said:
After 20 years of hiking, I think it's only dangerous to jealous gods.

Yes, some people don't need God, you sound like one of those people. Me, I never felt I needed Him either, I just knew He was there with me all the time, like He is with me now. So I really don't know what's it like not having God, .. but not needing Him, .. Hmm ..?? I don't know, cause I honestly can't even picture that?

Can I ask you something? Have you ever lived in an apartment complex at the cheaper area of town and have your Big-black neighbor call you downstairs to his apartment to ask you something? And when you go in there, here is Marlboro (can't give you his real name) a Green Beret, watching snuff films, with an unusual nervous twitch which is very unlike him, bloodshot eyes shows he is tripping something awful, points a gun at your head and tells you: "You know, .. I could blow your head off right now!" ??

our reaction to something like this what shows you just KNOW God is there with you. But I guess there are those who have no need for God, and like I said, I can't imagine how that could be?

I imagine you haven't heard the song, "Summerland" by Emerald Rose.

I looked it up, it's about Somhairlidh some Gaelic name given to some king. Is this the song? Cause I don't get the connection to believing or not believing in God??

Can you explain it to me?

I can help you find it, .. matter of fact, I can see you crossing this narrow path right as we speak!
"Hellooo awitch! Over here buddy!"

We're all going to die sometime.

Click to expand...

Yes, this body only. But if Pastor Dawkins speaks to you as he speaks to millions, then I guess that's as far as you go, right? Popped out of nothing, evolved for no particular reason, and we pop back into nothing.

If a god thinks collecting sticks on a particular day of the week is a crime punishable by death, then I'm not interested in that god. The same applies for two consenting adults in a romantic relationship who happen to be of the same gender.

The point God was making with the sticks guy is that he acted in spite, broke the Sabbath law before all to see. (You know, like a Mardi Gras front of children), so they were to make an example out of his stubborn rebellious behavior.
I mean God just got done giving them the Laws, Moses explained clearly that they were to keep the Sabbath holy, and here goes this guy picking up sticks before all to see.
I mean such in-your-face act of disobeying an order by a soldier before a General would most likely get the same punishment, especially during wartime!

But birds can?

Not the same way that humans do.
It's an evolutionary advantage for some birds to mimic the sounds they hear.
For example, blue jays can imitate hawk calls. If they get a reply, they know there's a hawk in the area and they can flee. If they don't it's probably safe to stick around.

Click to expand...

Ah yes, that "evolutionary advantage! OK, so how about this, .. 2.5 billion years of evolution, so what's the advantage of evolving to a Gazelle and live where the lions, wild dogs, tigers and leopards live? Man, I would have taken the first tectonic plate and migrate somewhere like upper Michigan like the deer did! Or, definitely would have adapted to learn how to speak human! Instead, they just lay there as they are being eaten alive!? At least the Warthog screams till its last breath! A pregnant lioness would definitely think twice having pork for dinner!

Crows, among other species, are also known to mimic car alarms, chain saws, and other urban sounds.

I know, but for what advantage? I mean I could understand a fox evolving for 2 billion years these traits, where it could make the car alarm sound at night and have the homeowner run outside, then sneak in and raid his fridge while he is trying to figure out whose messing with his car, .. you know what I mean?
Evolution just doesn't make sense to me.

It's also helpful for brood parasites, or birds who lay their eggs in the nest of another species of bird.

Yes, that is cool too! My question is; how did the butterfly survive for 2.1 billion years, yet the Dinosaurs died out, .. that's what I can't understand? They survived tectonic land movements, meteor showers, the ice age, all the volcanic eruptions, and didn't learn speech to communicate like the human apes, or evolve titanium wings with deadly poisonous darts that they could shoot from under their wings, or nothing, yet here they are fluttering around after all them millions and billions of Carl Sagan years!?
I guess I'll just stick to believing in a Creator, it makes so much more sense to me.

I don't understand what this has to do with the inability to have friends or associate with people of different beliefs, unless you're suggesting that god will consider you collateral damage when he eventually takes us out in some over the top violent act.

I guess you must have lived a sheltered life not to understand what kind of nightmarish hell that this type of lifestyle can breed for millions of people, especially children, and not just locally, but around the world!? This doesn't just stay within that Burning-Man event, and only for a few days, but is carried on into the every day world, and like osmosis eventually effects everyone.
I guess you have to be, or have been at the receiving end of such immorality to truly understand. I have, .. and I see it every day happening to others.
Yes, God will pay double for the grief and pain such immorality has wrought upon the innocent.

Over the top, .. naaw, not even. Just imagine torturing an innocent child for six years, every day giving her the deadly chemo, and radiation treatment, until her hair falls out, bones turn to brittle toothpicks, her whole inside is literally eaten away where they vomit after every injection. And then after six years when it is obvious they can take no more, they hold their crying and begging frail body down and say: "Just one more injection baby, be strong now darling, just one more and we're done!" and surely as has been done millions of times, the child suffers through the ordeal one last time. Then, finally left alone at night, with a nightmarish shriek she gives up the ghost.

Now what would be "over the top" for such hideous deeds? What, some fiery hail storm that kills them in minutes, or be drowned, .. what?

You seem to have left off the important part of that expression.

Yes I know, these ideas and expressions are always gift wrapped to make them look good, and even desirable.

God bless you awitch.

Arius · Mar 31, 2018

Doug Melven said:
These are all the verses preceding verse 8.
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
1:7 And of the angels He saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
1:8 But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Notice who is taking in verses 5-8, that would be God the Father talking about the Son. And He calls Him God.
And you don't think this Jewish scholar was biased?
How do you know he wasn't lying to you?
Remember, these people who were supposed to be so knowledgeable in the Scriptures missed there Messiah.

Yes, .. God raised His son Word aka Jesus Christ above all powers and principalities, all the Angels, you don't actually think that someone needs to raise God our Creator above anyone do you?
God is God, He cannot die, there is no parts to Him for He Is One, as in Infinite. Infinite is God.

How about this:
1:8 But the Son saith; Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom!

Now read the whole thing again with the proper interpretation and see how this fits with the previous verses!?

But to suggest; God calling Jesus God??? What are you going to show me next, God (to whom Jesus prayed to day and night) getting on His knees and weeping, begging Jesus for something like Jesus did sweating blood the night before his crucifixion? Asking God to take away the deadly cup he was to drink!?

Jesus sits on the Right hand of the Father, his God and our God, whom Jesus made clear is "greater than him". There is no other God besides our God, it's written all over the Bible my dear brother. May the Lord Jesus send the Holy Spirit so you could see what I see so clearly!?

The RCC tweaked them words here and there so they could squeeze in the Trinity-gods.

This next article is still Christian, and I believe they still serve the trinity, but please read where this Doctrine originates from, and to what limit they would go to keep it. Adding, tweaking and taking away from the Bible is just part of it.

The Roman Catholic "Church" takes away one of God's Ten Commandments!

God bless you my Brother.

Arius · Mar 31, 2018

dlamberth said:
I've done a lot of hiking myself. In my younger days I have even climbed most of the mountains in Oregon and a fair number in Washington. There were always many paths up those mountains. But sometimes we jumped off the path and found our own way discovering many unexpected things on the way. But the glorious view was always wonderful when we made it to the top.

YES buddy diemberth, I agree with you about hiking. Also, it's amazing how many serious climbers and hikers I encountered on Christian Forums, .. something about seeking after spirituality that brings in the more adventurous, do you think? I mean it is an adventure (especially that I can't hike anymore)

And also a big YES on those glorious views we get jumping off the path, same with seeking spirituality! I met some famous Authors on spirituality, and coming from a very conservative Christian denomination, I was literally blown away by their colorful views and descriptions of this do as thou wilt heaven, something like this:

.. but just like hiking and climbing, if I didn't watch my step, or if I would have gotten even just another tiny step closer to the spectacular view, it would of been certain death for sure.

In my own experience, I've discovered that the "narrow but straight path" limits a person's experience of life....or God. The narrow but straight path, for myself mind you, I've found has way too many limitations, separations and thou shall not's.

Yes, I understand, only I have seen what happens when we stray too far from that narrow path, all one has to do is get on the internet, look up in the sky, or listen to people talk at work, about the "joys and fun" they had over the weekend (not all mind you) but most that wonder off too far, the broken marriages and the pain that comes with it etc.

Yeah I have hiked both trails, and wondered from both paths and know the dangers of straying too far, even a little bit sometimes can be deadly, and if you hiked like you said, you should know how dangerous straying from the path can be. Not only can you fall to your death, but you can get lost, or loose your way, start doing things that harms others, even your loved ones.

No view is worth dying for, or loosing your soul over!

awitch · Mar 31, 2018

Arius said:
Yes, some people don't need God, you sound like one of those people.

Need? No.
But I am a polytheist and unlike other religions I choose to follow my path without duress.

Can I ask you something? Have you ever lived in an apartment complex at the cheaper area of town and have your Big-black neighbor call you downstairs to his apartment to ask you something? And when you go in there, here is Marlboro (can't give you his real name) a Green Beret, watching snuff films, with an unusual nervous twitch which is very unlike him, bloodshot eyes shows he is tripping something awful, points a gun at your head and tells you: "You know, .. I could blow your head off right now!" ??

our reaction to something like this what shows you just KNOW God is there with you. But I guess there are those who have no need for God, and like I said, I can't imagine how that could be?

No...?
And I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Can you explain it to me?

It means I'm confident that I'm on the right track. It's not easy where all god's expectations are laid out for you. It's an exploratory path, but eventually I'll get to where I should be.

Yes, this body only. But if Pastor Dawkins speaks to you as he speaks to millions, then I guess that's as far as you go, right? Popped out of nothing, evolved for no particular reason, and we pop back into nothing.

I woudn't say we popped out of nothing. I accept the Big Bang Theory. Where did the matter come from? "We don't know" sounds like a much better answer to me than something like "God made the first dude out of dirt and the first woman out one of his bones."

There are many reasons why evolution happens but it's mostly due to natural selection.

As for popping back into nothing, we also don't know the answer to that. Any speculation about what happens after death is wishful thinking.

The point God was making with the sticks guy is that he acted in spite, broke the Sabbath law before all to see. (You know, like a Mardi Gras front of children), so they were to make an example out of his stubborn rebellious behavior.

With a public, violent execution.
You're not helping your case.

I mean God just got done giving them the Laws, Moses explained clearly that they were to keep the Sabbath holy, and here goes this guy picking up sticks before all to see.
I mean such in-your-face act of disobeying an order by a soldier before a General would most likely get the same punishment, especially during wartime!

If an officer orders a soldier not to pick up some sticks on a particular day of the week, and the soldier does it, the soldier does not get a public execution. It's more like a forfeiture of pay, dishonorable discharge, and a few months in prison.

Ah yes, that "evolutionary advantage! OK, so how about this, .. 2.5 billion years of evolution, so what's the advantage of evolving to a Gazelle and live where the lions, wild dogs, tigers and leopards live?/quote]

Because they can't afford to buy plane tickets to a nice tropical island.
And it looks like gazelle only go back about 23 million years to the pliocene era.

I know, but for what advantage? I mean I could understand a fox evolving for 2 billion years these traits, where it could make the car alarm sound at night and have the homeowner run outside, then sneak in and raid his fridge while he is trying to figure out whose messing with his car, .. you know what I mean?
Evolution just doesn't make sense to me.

Click to expand...

How much sincere effort have you put in to learning about it?
(And not from Christian apologetic sites).

I guess I'll just stick to believing in a Creator, it makes so much more sense to me.

Click to expand...

Because it's easier than spending the time and effort to learn about some very complex topics.

Now what would be "over the top" for such hideous deeds? What, some fiery hail storm that kills them in minutes, or be drowned, .. what?

Click to expand...

I still don't know where you're going with this.
It almost sounds like you're saying it's kinder of god to firebomb a city than to slowly kill children with cancer? I hope I'm wrong, though.

Yes I know, these ideas and expressions are always gift wrapped to make them look good, and even desirable.

Click to expand...

The full expression is "An it harm none, do as thou will". We don't just wake up one morning and say I think it'll be ok to cheat on a spouse or rob a bank.

Doug Melven · Mar 31, 2018

Arius said:
How about this:
1:8 But the Son saith; Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom!

If you read the the previous verse you can see that God is referring to angels and saying something about them. So to say the Son is the one doing the talking in verse 8 does not follow.

dlamberth · Mar 31, 2018

Arius said:
No view is worth dying for, or loosing your soul over!

True, "if" the view is about loosing ones soul. But I no longer believe that's what this spiritual life is about. And in truth, any longer I believe that view is one of the pitfalls to be watchful for. I guess it's because over time I've explored different tails and have been exposed to different glorious vista's that did touch my soul deeply

To agree with what you have said about hiking, I never traveled with out a map of the area to be traveled. So when we jumped the trail, we pretty much knew where we were going. In the same sort of way, spiritually I have developed a map of sorts that I run everything through. Over time it's proven very valuable in keeping me out of danger. But it's defiantly not a map of a narrow way. It's more of a map of what to look for as Truth, or not, as I journey towards God.

My map looks like this:
Truth can not be sold
Truth can not be bought
Truth is not the teacher.
Truth is not money
Truth is not phenomenon
Truth is not paraphernalia
Truth is not extraordinary claims
Truth is not narcissistic

Arius · Apr 5, 2018

awitch said:
Need? No.
But I am a polytheist and unlike other religions I choose to follow my path without duress.

No...?
And I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Without duress, .. so having someone sneak in your back yard under police protection and release your Freon from your air-conditioning every year so they can come and charge $800 on repairs (and not really repair) a few year old air-conditioning wouldn't have anything to do with threats, violence, constraints, or other action brought to bear on someone to do something against their will or better judgment?

It means I'm confident that I'm on the right track. It's not easy where all god's expectations are laid out for you. It's an exploratory path, but eventually I'll get to where I should be.

You never lived under a totalitarian Communist regime, .. they too were confident they were on the right track. They felt that the reason why "they didn't get where they should be" was because they were too lenient, .. not enough torture and executions. They too had their gods expectations all laid out for them, like Carl Marx "Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844"

I woudn't say we popped out of nothing. I accept the Big Bang Theory.

Then what would you say it popped out of, and expanding into, .. I'm still waiting for an acceptable scientific answer for a theory that not just you, but is being taught to our children as fact!?

Where did the matter come from? "We don't know" sounds like a much better answer to me than something like "God made the first dude out of dirt and the first woman out one of his bones."

The Bible doesn't say that God created the Heavens and the earth from a mans bones, where did you hear that from, .. Dawkins, .. or Hitchens?

But just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, are you referring to "matter" in this sense:

Matter: physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit; (in physics) that which occupies space and possesses rest mass, especially as distinct from energy.
"the structure and properties of matter"

If matter is; "distinct from mind and spirit", then how do we (mind and spirit) observe 'matter'?
Let's see, it is through our eyes, touch, hearing etc. .. which are all electronic signals.
And what is electricity?

electricity: a form of energy resulting from the existence of charged particles (such as electrons or protons), either statically as an accumulation of charge or dynamically as a current.

So how can Lawrence Krauss, CERN, Richard Dawkins be so sure that Gods creation is not just energy?

In a computer gaming-world, all we have is rules and laws that create that world .. a computer language. The characters can't go through walls simply because the creator of the game decided it that way.
What's the difference with us in our God created world, which was spoken (language) into being?

There are many reasons why evolution happens but it's mostly due to natural selection.

Once a BB-Evolution scientist can show a "computer simulation" how the computer gaming world, and those computer characters can come into existence from "natural selection" (we could speed up the clock), .. then I could accept that.
Until then, neither the Big Bang story, or Evolution is a scientific theory, let alone fact.

As for popping back into nothing, we also don't know the answer to that. Any speculation about what happens after death is wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking? We could use science, no? Like "observing the world around us, people, animals, after they die, they turn back to dust. So the Bible does have the answers, scientifically proven too!

With a public, violent execution.
You're not helping your case.

Yes, breaking not the Generals, but Gods rule!

If an officer orders a soldier not to pick up some sticks on a particular day of the week, and the soldier does it, the soldier does not get a public execution. It's more like a forfeiture of pay, dishonorable discharge, and a few months in prison.

Maybe in High School ROTC, but not in the real world.
Here is a scenario: The army is hiding in the woods from the enemy, the enemy is nearby, .. one soldier decides to gather some sticks to build a little fire so he can roast some marshmallows while they wait.
Disobedient leads to sin, sin leads to death, like in the above example.

Arius said - Ah yes, that "evolutionary advantage! OK, so how about this, .. 2.5 billion years of evolution, so what's the advantage of evolving to a Gazelle and live where the lions, wild dogs, tigers and leopards live?

Because they can't afford to buy plane tickets to a nice tropical island.
And it looks like gazelle only go back about 23 million years to the pliocene era.

Click to expand...

So you don't believe in Evolution either? The gazelle, the lion, the human, .. all supposedly evolved from amoeba in a 2.1 billion/trillion/million Carl Sagan year old primordial soup, .. did they not?
But you're right, the gazelle was created a gazelle, it didn't just 'evolve'. Remember the Law of Evolution: "No individual distinct species will, or ever has evolved/speciated into another distinct species!"

I know, but for what advantage? I mean I could understand a fox evolving for 2 billion years these traits, where it could make the car alarm sound at night and have the homeowner run outside, then sneak in and raid his fridge while he is trying to figure out whose messing with his car, .. you know what I mean?
Evolution just doesn't make sense to me.

How much sincere effort have you put in to learning about it?
(And not from Christian apologetic sites).

Click to expand...

Would thousands of debates over twenty years with those who claim to know all about Evolution count?
Like I was kicked off a debate here on CF on this very subject because no one could answer my question:
"What distinct-species was the humans 'Common Ancestor'?"

I guess I'll just stick to believing in a Creator, it makes so much more sense to me.

Because it's easier than spending the time and effort to learn about some very complex topics.

Click to expand...

No, but why waist time on a very complex topic that was based on observing the finished product (live humans and animals) and never once in two hundred years since the Religions invention has anyone observed one species evolve/speciate/mutate/give birth to a completely different species?
"But it happens!!" they say, .. "look at all theses skull and bones, and all these millions of fossils! What more proof do you want?"

Now what would be "over the top" for such hideous deeds? What, some fiery hail storm that kills them in minutes, or be drowned, .. what?

I still don't know where you're going with this.
It almost sounds like you're saying it's kinder of god to firebomb a city than to slowly kill children with cancer? I hope I'm wrong, though.

Click to expand...

Where I'm going with this is, what's better? To kill with fiery hailstorm, those who in Cancer Hospitals take up to six years to kill a healthy child with chemo therapy and radiation treatment till they develop and slowly, agonizingly die of cancer, or just turn a blind-eye and let it keep on happening?

Yes I know, these ideas and expressions are always gift wrapped to make them look good, and even desirable.

The full expression is "An it harm none, do as thou will". We don't just wake up one morning and say I think it'll be ok to cheat on a spouse or rob a bank.

Click to expand...

Why NOT??
So in Satan worship, here they have a baby for sacrifice, and the High Priest says: "Now remember, do as thou wilt, just don't harm him!"
Besides, what does the Satanist consider harm, .. or a lie, since Satanism is about 'opposites'!? Lucifer was good, got Adam and Eve to think for themselves, opened their eyes, while God their Creator is evil, wanted to keep them imprisoned in the Garden, ignorant, not to question anything, .. etc.

God bless you to become a real scientist. Jesus taught the we are no longer under the law, but under grace. So it is us Believers of the Way that can do as we wilt, because it is Gods Holy Spirit that guides us to harm none.
What law does Satanism abide by when they say "Do as though wilt, but harm none"? What would they consider harm when they see humans as animals!? Having someone for dinner can have a totally different meaning for someone who believes he is an animal that goes by instinct, .. just reacting to its environment!?

Arius · Apr 5, 2018

Doug Melven said:
If you read the the previous verse you can see that God is referring to angels and saying something about them. So to say the Son is the one doing the talking in verse 8 does not follow.

How does it not follow?

1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
1:7 And of the angels He saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
1:8 But unto (or of) the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

How can God, who sits on His Throne, and on His right hand He sat His son Word aka Jesus Christ make that claim, call Jesus God? Or that Jesus is the Godhead, where God Himself worships him?
That makes sense to you? I guess to make the Trinity Doctrine work, anything goes. In the pagan world gods do pray and praise and even kill each other, so I guess that would make sense in that case.

Doug Melven · Apr 5, 2018

Arius said:
How does it not follow?

1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
God speaking about angels and what He did not say to them
1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
God telling the angels to worship the Son.
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
God speaking to angels
1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
God speaking to the Son.
It would not follow if it was the Son speaking.
And why would the Son say this to God.
1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows

And as for the pagans having something that looks like the Trinity, where do you think they got it from?
One of Satan's tricks is to counterfeit the truth.

Arius · Apr 6, 2018

dlamberth said:
True, "if" the view is about loosing ones soul. But I no longer believe that's what this spiritual life is about. And in truth, any longer I believe that view is one of the pitfalls to be watchful for. I guess it's because over time I've explored different tails and have been exposed to different glorious vista's that did touch my soul deeply

Yes my friend, but that's not how I view that narrow, straight path, it leads right through life, doesn't swerve to avoid anything, some nice scenery, but there is the really bad ones, yet it is safe, for it is lead by Christ, and you can feel the presence walking on that narrow path.
Each of us have a specific time, at different specific points on this narrow path where we are taken out, some young, and some old. The views from this road may not be glorious, matter of fact, most of it for me was nightmarish where I wanted to step off to a more comfortable, a wider, more well traveled highway, but seen people were being lead, and heading into grave danger, not even realizing it! I seen who was leading them, .. he looked very much like the Shepherd on my narrow path, until I looked into the eys of this tall, blond blue-eyed handsome and charming leader, and seen the flames of hell.

How can I explain that wide highway, .. yes, something like that movie "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams, .. fake beauty, fake scenery, the flowers smell of paint, and where he thinks he is superman and can fly, well it's a delusion, he don't get to fall softly, that's BS. I seen people fall hard, and die.
I mean if you don't believe in reincarnation of the soul, that this life is it, and you got here by a cosmological accident and after you die, you turn back to dust, well than live and let live, for tomorrow we die, and will be the end of it.
To me, that is the biggest lie of Satan. But of course you don't believe in Satan, and all these demonic worship rituals the modern singers like Lady Gaga, Miley, Sasha Fierce, JZ, and the hundreds of others are doing, .. including all this demonic symbolism everywhere we look is just art, .. well, that's no different than 2 billion people who pray their Rosary to Mary, it's nothing but a religious delusion based on blind faith, and not the Truth, .. but it is by choice, right? Even God honors our free will, so what can we do?

If the Creator said He will raise us up again after death, then that's what it will be, life is way too complex and beautifully designed to end with dirt.

To agree with what you have said about hiking, I never traveled with out a map of the area to be traveled. So when we jumped the trail, we pretty much knew where we were going. In the same sort of way, spiritually I have developed a map of sorts that I run everything through. Over time it's proven very valuable in keeping me out of danger. But it's defiantly not a map of a narrow way. It's more of a map of what to look for as Truth, or not, as I journey towards God.

My map looks like this:
Truth can not be sold
Truth can not be bought
Truth is not the teacher.
Truth is not money
Truth is not phenomenon
Truth is not paraphernalia
Truth is not extraordinary claims
Truth is not narcissistic

Nice, .. I too wonder "what is truth?" To me, looking at life in the world we live in through clear eyes .. realistically, outside of Religious, or Public indoctrination is truth.
Like the Flat Earth is truth, and the globe is a lie. But to most, that doesn't really matter, it's easier to go with the flow, especially on the wide highway where billions are headed the same direction.

I agree with your brief summery of truth, except that I believe that truth CAN be a Teacher, that's once we learn to recognize what the truth is about a thing, I can learn so much more from that, leads me to such green pastures, besides still waters (not the confusing dirty turbulent waters like that last big Japan Tsunami). Truth has a purpose to it, .. like I said about the Earth being flat instead of this imaginary globe twirling through a vacuum of infinite nothingness without a purpose.
Truth is an adventure, and in these last times, it is very dangerous adventure!

Or like the claim of; God being an idea created by the brain for extra comfort, which is how all the theistic/atheistic Religions have us believe. Once I got a taste of truth, and found out how people oppose truth, or how they'll do anything to try to avoid hearing truth, both about science and God, I value it even more, realizing how easily we can cast it aside! I found it amazing how even the most intellectual people will work so hard to avoid the truth just to stay on the wide road. You know, so they would not be ridiculed.

Thank you dlamberth.

Arius · Apr 6, 2018

Doug Melven said:
1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

God speaking about angels and what He did not say to them

Oh come on now Doug, why didn't God say any of that to the Angels, huh?
Because not only did God use His son Word to create all things through, but the Word became flesh (John 3:16 etc.) and remained faithful to his Father even unto death. It is for this reason that God placed him above all the other created Angels.
Remember what John seen in Revelations, that no one could open the scroll, except the Lamb of God?

Remember that even God can do evil, He created evil. And God Himself makes laws, and rules, and promises He Himself will abide by, like the rainbow after Noah's flood, and many, many other sworn promises He made to his chosen People!
So to see His son be willing to go through all that suffering, of all that pain and resentment from those whom he came to save, and remain without sin, well God shows His appreciation.

1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

God telling the angels to worship the Son.

Yes, .. telling the Angels to worship the, .. the who? God?
No.
His other god-self?
No.
Gods father, the Godhead, the 3/3'ds of God?
No, .. but just as you said: God telling the angels to worship the Son.
This is why it is written like that because here we see God, the One and Only Possible Infinite Creator of all things, all Principalities and Powers giving what is rightfully His, to His son Word aka Jesus Christ.
What does that show? This shows just how Good our God is, and how much He loves those that love Him, that He would even give, .. as you have it next here in Isaiah 42:8

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

And His son is no "graven image", but His loyal servant.
What do loyal servants of God do? They pray to God unceasingly, as the son has done.
How can you imagine God praying to His son? Or God dying as the Trinitarians have him doing? Or God calling his son Father, as if God was created like the son!?

1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
God speaking to angels
1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
God speaking to the Son.
It would not follow if it was the Son speaking.
And why would the Son say this to God.

So wait, it wouldn't make sense for the son praying to and praising God by saying: "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom", .. but for God to call His son God and pray to His son, or say this to him as Father-God makes much more sense???
If the son is also the Father, then who is Father God?
God praying to, and worshipping a sun-god deity makes sense to you? Not to mention God the Godhead, not the lesser of the three but Jesus being the head of the three, dying on the cross and praying to the other gods makes sense?

1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows

And as for the pagans having something that looks like the Trinity, where do you think they got it from?
One of Satan's tricks is to counterfeit the truth.

Yes, I agree, right there before our eyes too!
Who do you think this is talking about, some Jesus deity sun-god anointing his Father with oil and raising Him above all the Angels?

I love you Doug, and I will pray for you so you too could see the confusion in this Doctrine!? Everyone agrees that it is confusing, that mortal minds cannot understand it, remember?

Doug Melven · Apr 6, 2018

Arius said:
I love you Doug, and I will pray for you so you too could see the confusion in this Doctrine!? Everyone agrees that it is confusing, that mortal minds cannot understand it, remember?

You took many of my words and twisted them. sun-god
I can see that you are dead set against the truth and there is no more reason for me to continue this debate.
I will pray that God shows you the truth.
May the grace of the Son and the love of the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

Arius · Apr 6, 2018

Doug Melven said:
You took many of my words and twisted them. sun-god
I can see that you are dead set against the truth and there is no more reason for me to continue this debate.
I will pray that God shows you the truth.
May the grace of the Son and the love of the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

I'm dead set against the truth, .. me? You know that's what Evolutionists and the Big-Bang theorists tell me too, that not only am I against the truth, but that I'm against science too.
When the world has turned:
BB-Evolution = science
Trinity Doctrine = God
gods can only exist = in religion
gods = divine beings who reside in the supernatural realm
faith = blind faith
blind faith = truth, for the Christian is saved by blind faith, not by questioning Christian Doctrine.

.. who can go against these rules, who will dare to go against them, right?

dlamberth · Apr 8, 2018

Arius said:
I agree with your brief summery of truth, except that I believe that truth CAN be a Teacher, that's once we learn to recognize what the truth is about a thing, I can learn so much more from that, leads me to such green pastures, besides still waters (not the confusing dirty turbulent waters like that last big Japan Tsunami). Truth has a purpose to it, ...

I can’t help but wonder, which I’ve done many, many times, what the vista might look like today “if” at the very beginning those first followers of your teacher didn’t stop at the teacher. But went beyond the teacher and more towards where He was pointing. Maybe perhaps even reaching a Cosmic wide experience of the Divine such that every where one looks, there God is? Or is that not narrow enough. I walk a path that’s wide because personally, I have no idea how to limit my Beloved God. His presence is everywhere, in all people and in all things, even in the earth I love to hike on.

I included the teacher in my summery because when the teacher becomes the focus rather than where they point, all sorts of mental concepts, images and beliefs immerge that have very little to do with Truth. But that stuff does work well to separate us from each other.

Your right about one thing. I don’t believe in Satan. But that’s because when the only reality in ones’ life is God, that leaves very little room for Satan images or beliefs.

Arius · Apr 9, 2018

dlamberth said:
I can’t help but wonder, which I’ve done many, many times, what the vista might look like today “if” at the very beginning those first followers of your teacher didn’t stop at the teacher. But went beyond the teacher and more towards where He was pointing.

Yes, so true, only it was not the first followers of the Teacher that deified Christ, but came about 350 years later. They are the ones that stopped at the deified Christ, and turned him into a Religion they named Christian.

You see the First Disciples, the Apostles were pointing to a door that, just as you said; "went beyond the Teacher", .. to Infinite God! Can't get any wider than Infinite, right? Because you see "with God, All Things Are Possible!"

But unfortunately the Devil made soo many huge highways and byways that very few find this narrow straight path. Like the one you describe next:

Maybe perhaps even reaching a Cosmic wide experience of the Divine such that every where one looks, there God is?

This wide path of those divine beings includes the cosmos, NASA patented universe full of those mighty gods like Mars, Venus, Jupiter, and even find a little insignificant planet earth there somewhere amongst the Carl Sagan millions, billions and trillions of galaxies,planets and suns.

Or is that not narrow enough.

How do you think that's narrow? That's a path as wide as the world!

I walk a path that’s wide because personally, I have no idea how to limit my Beloved God. His presence is everywhere, in all people and in all things, even in the earth I love to hike on.

Look closer at all people, and if you find God in people whose every thought is wicked, then I don't know what to tell you?
But if they have the Word of God, .. now there you might find God.
As for the earth, it is Gods creation, we are not to fall short of worshipping the Creator by getting stuck worshipping His creation. Yes, it is beautiful and marvelous, why do you think Satan is chem-trailing it to hell, .. destroying the air, the waters, the trees, fish and all life on earth!?

I included the teacher in my summery because when the teacher becomes the focus rather than where they point, all sorts of mental concepts, images and beliefs immerge that have very little to do with Truth. But that stuff does work well to separate us from each other.

Yes, Satan made the lie fancy enough, and wide enough to keep billions from finding that narrow and straight Path and "Way" to God.

Your right about one thing. I don’t believe in Satan. But that’s because when the only reality in ones’ life is God, that leaves very little room for Satan images or beliefs.

I was where you are, .. and I hope you take another good look at this "reality", .. 'cause I'm telling you it's nothing like you think! It's an illusion, a painting of God, a reality like in that movie "What Dreams May Come". You cannot paint God for He is Spirit, cannot be seen.
It doesn't have to be paintings, man can paint very well with his words too, I read some books that portrayed a really beautiful "picture" of God, even psychedelic ones.

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