SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

Acts2:38 · Mar 29, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Now you hold on a sec. I actually BELIEVE in eternal security. But I am merely pointing out that my observation of Galatians 5:4 is that it seems to be teaching otherwise. If a person goes back to trusting in the law to save him, he or she is fallen from grace. Grace means salvation. We are not maintained by our works, so yes we are maintained because of the grace of God. If we lose contact with grace we lose contact with the thing that saves us. Conclusion...salvation is also lost when a person falls from grace. This my exegesis of Galatians 5:4 with Ephesians 2:8 and not your eisegesis. Maybe the person who falls from grace is the person in the parable of the sower who believes for a short season but falls away in a time of temptation. But he who is of the good soil is eternally secure, I will not argue with that. See also 2 Timothy 2:19.

Lots of people also skip over this verse too

Hebrews 6:4-6.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

justbyfaith · Mar 30, 2018

Hi @Acts2:38,

That scripture is a doozy though, often used by the devil to bring people into discouragment, thinking they have fallen away and can't ever return to Christ. Such a thing makes some give up on following Christ, thinking that God will not allow them to return. Taking Hebrews 6:1-8 in light of the rest of the chapter is highly important. Also to be taken into account are: Job 14:7-11, Daniel 12:10, 1 Peter 1:3, Psalms 23:3, John 6:37, Luke 1:37, Mark 10:27, Matthew 19:26, Acts of the Apostles 27:20-22, and Psalms 31:22.

justbyfaith · Mar 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I think this is confusing the issue. Believers can and do commit iniquity. To argue otherwise simply ignores Scripture.

If true believers don't commit iniquity, why did John write 1 Jn 1:9, which is about forgiveness of sin and cleansing from ALL iniquity?

And why all the commands to be holy, as God is holy?

What's the opposite of holy? Iniquity.

Salvation comes from believing in Christ as Savior. The result should be (and is commanded) to follow Him as your Lord.

To mix Savior and Lord into one thing for salvation dilutes the gospel of grace and makes behavior a requirement for salvation. Do you really want to go there?

I believe Eph 2;8,9 refutes that idea.

See 1 John 3:4-9. It may also be that John is saying that by confessing all your sins as an initiation into faith with Christ, one is cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, i.e. no unrighteousness remaining. Thus the true believer is righteous, even as Jesus is righteous, in what he does (1 John 3:7). He walks even as Jesus walked (1 John 2:6). And he has purified himself even as Jesus is pure and without sin (1 John 3:3-5).

justbyfaith · Mar 30, 2018

Yes, of corse salvation comes from believing in Christ as Saviour. Specifically, it comes from appropriating His blood (Romans 5:9). His blood not only justifies though; it sanctifies and cleanses us from ALL sin (Hebrews 13:12, 1 John 1:7, Titus 2:14). He redeems us from ALL iniquity and PURIFIES us unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. He purges away our sins so that we have no more conscience of sins, while our hearts have been sprinkled from an evil conscience (Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 10:2, Hebrews 10:22, see also Hebrews 10:4, compare 1 John 3:5, and then see the clincher in Hebrews 10:14 kjv)

Acts2:38 · Mar 30, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Hi @Acts2:38,

That scripture is a doozy though, often used by the devil to bring people into discouragment, thinking they have fallen away and can't ever return to Christ. Such a thing makes some give up on following Christ, thinking that God will not allow them to return. Taking Hebrews 6:1-8 in light of the rest of the chapter is highly important. Also to be taken into account are: Job 14:7-11, Daniel 12:10, 1 Peter 1:3, Psalms 23:3, John 6:37, Luke 1:37, Mark 10:27, Matthew 19:26, Acts of the Apostles 27:20-22, and Psalms 31:22.

Yea, I merely mention it though to show that one can lose salvation. However, one can repent and get salvation again for example combining 1 Peter 3:12 with 1 John 1:9 and so forth. Also James (chpt 1 I believe) hits along those lines too.

Have a wonderful weekend.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Now you hold on a sec.

Sure.

I actually BELIEVE in eternal security. But I am merely pointing out that my observation of Galatians 5:4 is that it seems to be teaching otherwise.

Well then. You've got a choice. Does the Bible teach eternal security, or conditional security, or both?

If a person goes back to trusting in the law to save him, he or she is fallen from grace. Grace means salvation.

Grace means a whole lot more than salvation. And grace doesn't necessarily mean salvation. Jesus' death on the cross was an act of grace, but that act doesn't save anyone. Just to be clear.

We are not maintained by our works, so yes we are maintained because of the grace of God. If we lose contact with grace we lose contact with the thing that saves us. Conclusion...salvation is also lost when a person falls from grace.[

OK, so you're confused then, since this post began with your statement that you "actually" believe in eternal security. Obviously, you do not believe that.

This my exegesis of Galatians 5:4 with Ephesians 2:8 and not your eisegesis.

Please support this false claim that I have committed "eisegesis" rather than exegesis. Do you even know the difference?

Maybe the person who falls from grace is the person in the parable of the sower who believes for a short season but falls away in a time of temptation.

Not possible. The second soil fell away from faith due to testing/temptation, while the Galatians returned to the Law. Not even comparable.

But he who is of the good soil is eternally secure, I will not argue with that.

Based on what, specifically? The ONLY DIFFERENCE between 2nd and 4th soil is that the 4th soil produced fruit. Yet, in your post, you said that "we are not maintained by our works", so it seems there is quite a bit of confusion in your theology.

See also 2 Timothy 2:19.

OK, let's do.

"Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”"

OK, I've seen it. What about the verse? Does its say anything about how to lose salvation? No, it does not.

It does state the fact that the Lord knows who are His. And a command for them to turn away from wickedness.

I can't imagine how your eiesegesis will look. But give it a try anyway.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Lots of people also skip over this verse too

Hebrews 6:4-6.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If this passage was about losing salvation, then the verse says that salvation is a one time thing. Once lost, it can never be regained.

And, just for perspective, Jesus said those He gives eternal life (means they are saved, btw) shall never perish.

So, IF Heb 6:4-6 is about losing salvation, the author's writing is in direct conflict with the Lord's words in John 10:28a.

John 10:28a is a direct CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, by the phrase, "I given them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase, "and they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish."

So, Heb 6:4-6 CANNOT be about losing salvation.

No how. No way.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Hi @Acts2:38,

That scripture is a doozy though, often used by the devil to bring people into discouragment, thinking they have fallen away and can't ever return to Christ.

Well, there you go. If that passage is about losing salvation, the point is that the one who fell away can NEVER return. It's very clear.

Which is why the passage cannot be about losing salvation.

Mountainmanbob · Mar 30, 2018

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Why do you have your face to the side and your "Right Eye" as the focal point of your avatar picture ?

Just as seen from up top the mountain, I like that Avatar picture. Much better than a straight-on shot.
M-Bob

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

I said:
"If true believers don't commit iniquity, why did John write 1 Jn 1:9, which is about forgiveness of sin and cleansing from ALL iniquity?"

justbyfaith said:
See 1 John 3:4-9.

This is not an answer to my question. And is not relevant to my question, since there was no explanation of what the passage is about in your opinion.

It may also be that John is saying that by confessing all your sins as an initiation into faith with Christ, one is cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, i.e. no unrighteousness remaining.

This has nothing to do with "initiation into faith with Christ". It's what believers must do in order to maintain/restore fellowship with Christ. Just count the times the word "fellowship" was used in ch 1.

Thus the true believer is righteous, even as Jesus is righteous, in what he does (1 John 3:7).

Our righteousness is an imputed or credited righteousness. From that, we are commanded to experiential righteousness by the verses that say, "be holy, for I am holy".

He walks even as Jesus walked (1 John 2:6). And he has purified himself even as Jesus is pure and without sin (1 John 3:3-5).

Do you believe in sinless perfection during life on earth?

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Yea, I merely mention it though to show that one can lose salvation. However, one can repent and get salvation again for example combining 1 Peter 3:12 with 1 John 1:9 and so forth. Also James (chpt 1 I believe) hits along those lines too.

Have a wonderful weekend.

If Heb 6:4-6 is about losing salvation, then the passage says it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance. What else can that mean but not able to be saved again?

Gr8Grace · Mar 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"I totally disagree with this. The Bible clearly states that one is saved when one believes. All that you'd included adds up to human effort or works."

I cannot imagine how James 2:14-26 relates to what I said about salvation being about believing, apart from works.

But since you asked, the point of James here is that those who have faith must demonstrate their faith before others, otherwise, they are hypocrites. Yes, James never used that word, but being a brother of Jesus, there is no doubt he was well aware of how many times his brother called the religious leaders of the day (Pharisees) hypocrites.

Ch 2 even begins with an example of hypocrisy in how people treat poor people in relation to rich people.

And, the 2 verses following 2:14 give an obvious example of a hypocrite.

Demonstrating their love.

It's a work of evangelism. How does that relate to one's own salvation?

Given the entire context, I think Jesus was speaking tongue-in-cheek when He said "work of God". The Jews were works-focused.

Consider v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Their question revealed their FALSE notions that one is saved by doing works. So Jesus used 'works' in His answer to them.

And v.29 shows that what is required for salvation to to "believe on Him (Jesus) whom God has sent". No works involved.

Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 provide explanation of the DIFFERENCE between faith and works.

One thing is clear. None of these 3 verses support your notion that salvation is by works or that one can lose their salvation.

Rev 2:10 is about faithfulness resulting in eternal reward.

Heb 3:14 is about fellowship and partnership with Christ. Not about getting saved.

1 John 2:24 is also about fellowship.

If you don't have a Bible study software, use an on-line site and search for the word "fellowship" and read each one. This word is nearly unknown to many many believers.

They have no clue about what it even is, or how to have it.

Believers can be in fellowship or out of fellowship and still be saved.

The best example is the prodigal son in Luke 15. He was ALWAYS a son, throughout the entire parable. Even when he wanted to demote himself, it didn't work.

Leaving his father showed loss of fellowship. Returning to his father showed restoration of fellowship.

If your pastor doesn't teach this concept, then you'll have no idea what I've been talking about. Which would be sad.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost see things only as saved or lost. And people moving between the two. What they completely miss is the principle of fellowship, which explains all the verses wrongly used to support loss of salvation.

What CAN be lost is fellowship with the Lord. We need to "abide" in Him in order to be in fellowship.

A question: can a husband and wife be out of fellowship with each other and still be married? Of course they can. And guess what; the Bible uses those words to describe the relationship between Christ and His church.

Excellent! What freedom We have In Christ when we see the distinction between salvation and fellowship.

Gr8Grace · Mar 30, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Lots of people also skip over this verse too

Hebrews 6:4-6.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We need to bring in 1 John 1:9. Once we are saved, we can grieve or quench the Spirit. So we need to name and site sin or human good to God to regain fellowship with Him. If we don't do this(name and site sin or evil to God) it is impossible to regain fellowship.

Heb 6:4-6 is saying the same thing.

In verse 6, they were presently crucifying Christ over and over again and putting Him to open shame over and over again.They were doing it by going back to animal sacrifices, hence QUENCHING the Spirit. If we as believers , stay in a state of quenching the Spirit.........it is impossible for us to be " renewed unto repentance."

We need to stop grieving or quenching the Spirit and 1 John 1:9 to be renewed unto fellowship/repentance.

Heb 6:4-6 is stating the fact that if we remain in a state of sin or human good, and don't recognize it and name and site it to God........It is impossible to be renewed unto repentance/ brought back into fellowship with God.

The critical part of those verses is, "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

All they had to do was name it and site it to God.......and they would have been renewed unto fellowship.1 John 1:9

Acts2:38 · Mar 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
If this passage was about losing salvation, then the verse says that salvation is a one time thing. Once lost, it can never be regained.

And, just for perspective, Jesus said those He gives eternal life (means they are saved, btw) shall never perish.

So, IF Heb 6:4-6 is about losing salvation, the author's writing is in direct conflict with the Lord's words in John 10:28a.

John 10:28a is a direct CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, by the phrase, "I given them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase, "and they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish."

So, Heb 6:4-6 CANNOT be about losing salvation.

No how. No way.

Hello and good day to you.

I'm very happy that you have discussed this with me in a civil manner, thank you.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about the possibility one could lose their salvation. You just can't change meanings of words around whenever you wish to fit your stance.

The great news about one who does happen to get caught in sin and falls away, is that they can repent (Godly sorrow that is) and come back into the fold and Galatians 6:1 is a good example.

Also, I've been more and more convinced that you are under the impression that all one needs to do is "believe" and that's it. No action necessary after that, just believe only. This is very far from the truth though.

Usually, when the verb belief/faith is involved, it requires action. When one believes/has faith, they do the will of God as stated in the gospel. For example, you must repent also Luke 13:3.

For your John 5:24 - believe - pisteuo - Thayer's states
"specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something"

You have to DO what the bible commands for your salvation and to hold on to your salvation hence verses like Matthew 7:21-23 (it was all in vain for them, even though they "believed").

Which brings us to this verse, Revelation 2:10. It very much does state "remaining faithful until death". That is until your death. No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the meaning of this. It's very clear, very straightforward.

OSAS is just flat out false. If that were the case, I could just earnestly believe in Christ, stop there at belief, kick the crud out of anyone that ticks me off, maybe go out and commit murder, not repent of anything, and still be saved because I believe in Christ, Lord and savior.

It just doesn't work that way.

Until we can even come on stable ground on the meaning/definition of words, how am I even able to discuss further with you. Changing the meaning of words is just not how this works. We must be honest with ourselves here.

With due respect, I bid you a wonderful weekend.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Hello and good day to you.

I'm very happy that you have discussed this with me in a civil manner, thank you.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about the possibility one could lose their salvation. You just can't change meanings of words around whenever you wish to fit your stance.

I didn't change anything. I explained exactly WHY the passage cannot be about losing salvation. If it were, it would be in DIRECT opposition to what Jesus taught in John 5:24, 6;47 and 10:28a.

I hope you take the time to address these 3 verses and make comment on the FACTS:
1. in the first 2 verses, Jesus said that whoever believes possesses eternal life.
2. this means that they possess eternal life WHEN they first believe.
3. 10:28a is the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.
4. The CAUSE of possession of eternal life is Jesus Christ by the statement: "I give them eternal life".
5. The EFFECT of possession of eternal life is eternal security by the statement: "and they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish".

If salvation can be lost, then please refute EACH of these FACTS from Scripture.

The great news about one who does happen to get caught in sin and falls away, is that they can repent (Godly sorrow that is) and come back into the fold and Galatians 6:1 is a good example.

So, kind of a yo-yo system of salvation. Believe and be saved, fall into sin and lose salvation, repent and be saved, sin and lose salvation, etc ad nauseum.

Also, I've been more and more convinced that you are under the impression that all one needs to do is "believe" and that's it.

Correct. What else did Paul add to his answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved? Nothing. He answered: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:30-31

Are you disagreeing with Paul's answer? Seems so.

No action necessary after that, just believe only. This is very far from the truth though.

Actually, it is THE truth. As stated by Paul and the apostle John throughout his gospel.

Usually, when the verb belief/faith is involved, it requires action. When one believes/has faith, they do the will of God as stated in the gospel. For example, you must repent also Luke 13:3.

Repenting is a Greek word 'metanoia', from 2 words; change, and mind. Of course one must change their mind BEFORE they accept the promise of the gospel, which is eternal salvation through faith alone in Christ alone.

For your John 5:24 - believe - pisteuo - Thayer's states
"specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something"

The bolded words do not contain anything about required action beyond believing. To believe is to absolutely trust in the work of Christ on the cross on your behalf and that God is ABLE to "do something", which is the salvation of your soul.

Thanks for agreeing with me, even though you don't agree.

You have to DO what the bible commands for your salvation and to hold on to your salvation hence verses like Matthew 7:21-23 (it was all in vain for them, even though they "believed").

Where does the Bible say that we have to "hold on to" our salvation? This is just a made up opinion.

Which brings us to this verse, Revelation 2:10. It very much does state "remaining faithful until death". That is until your death. No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the meaning of this. It's very clear, very straightforward.

Here is the verse:
"Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown."

It should be obvious (but obviously isn't) that in ALL the letters to the 7 churches of Asia Minor, all included rewards for faithfulness. Not salvation itself.

OSAS is just flat out false.

I invite you to tell that to Jesus, who gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life in John 10:28a.

The statement, "I give them eternal life" is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, Jesus Himself.

The statement, "and they shall never perish" is the EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is that the recipients shall never perish.

So, to summarize, once a person is given eternal life, which is on the basis of faith in Christ, per John 5:24, 6:47, they shall never perish.

So John 10:28a is the clearest statement in the Bible on eternal security.

If that were the case, I could just earnestly believe in Christ, stop there at belief, kick the crud out of anyone that ticks me off, maybe go out and commit murder, not repent of anything, and still be saved because I believe in Christ, Lord and savior.

It appears that your theology doesn't include the FACT that Jesus Christ died for ALL sins. That His sacrifice was once for all. I suggest you read heb 7-10 and count every instance of the phrase "once for all".

It just doesn't work that way.

Read the Bible. Yes it does.

Until we can even come on stable ground on the meaning/definition of words, how am I even able to discuss further with you. Changing the meaning of words is just not how this works. We must be honest with ourselves here.

OK, let's start with some honesty and explain to me which words I have so-called "changed" and what the words I so-called "changed" really mean. And cite some actual sources, not just some guy's opinion.

With due respect, I bid you a wonderful weekend.

Thank you. Same to you.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 30, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
Just as seen from up top the mountain, I like that Avatar picture. Much better than a straight-on shot.
M-Bob

That's ok I know the true reason :

“Woe to the Worthless Shepherd,
Who leaves the flock!
A sword shall be against his arm
And against His Right Eye;
His arm shall completely wither,
And His Right Eye shall be totally blinded.”
• Zechariah 11:17

And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
• Revelation 13:3

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by The Sword and lived.
• Revelation 13:14

justbyfaith · Mar 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure.

Well then. You've got a choice. Does the Bible teach eternal security, or conditional security, or both?

Grace means a whole lot more than salvation. And grace doesn't necessarily mean salvation. Jesus' death on the cross was an act of grace, but that act doesn't save anyone. Just to be clear.

OK, so you're confused then, since this post began with your statement that you "actually" believe in eternal security. Obviously, you do not believe that.

Please support this false claim that I have committed "eisegesis" rather than exegesis. Do you even know the difference?

Not possible. The second soil fell away from faith due to testing/temptation, while the Galatians returned to the Law. Not even comparable.

Based on what, specifically? The ONLY DIFFERENCE between 2nd and 4th soil is that the 4th soil produced fruit. Yet, in your post, you said that "we are not maintained by our works", so it seems there is quite a bit of confusion in your theology.

OK, let's do.

"Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”"

OK, I've seen it. What about the verse? Does its say anything about how to lose salvation? No, it does not.

It does state the fact that the Lord knows who are His. And a command for them to turn away from wickedness.

I can't imagine how your eiesegesis will look. But give it a try anyway.

justbyfaith · Mar 30, 2018

If you want to have a dialogue with me, then quote my whole post and THEN address the WHOLE of my post. Cutting my post in pieces and addressing it line by line is not going to cut it with me, that is one of my pet peeves. After only a few responses, it makes things confusing if both parties are doing the same thing: what was originally said, and the train of thought, is too easily lost track of.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2018

justbyfaith said:
If you want to have a dialogue with me, then quote my whole post and THEN address the WHOLE of my post.

I don't consider that a dialogue. No more than one person reciting an entire letter and then the other person trying to address everything in that letter all at once

I take either sentences or paragraphs at a time, so as to not miss any points being made.

Cutting my post in pieces and addressing it line by line is not going to cut it with me, that is one of my pet peeves.

Well, then, it appears we can't have a discussion. Which is a back-and-forth kind of thing.

So, let me ask: are your phone conversations like how you want to post? Just all your talking, and then the other persons? Or are your phone conversations back and forth.

After only a few responses, it makes things confusing if both parties are doing the same thing: what was originally said, and the train of thought, is too easily lost track of.

On the contrary, it keeps the points in view. In a single post, many points can be made, and rarely do posters number their points.

So, in a single response, how does one reply to these unnumbered points? That's what gets confusing; trying to address points when they aren't numbered.

Frankly, I wish other posters addressed my comments and posts one at a time. Rather than just some kind of summary disagreement kind of thing.

But it seems to me the summary kind of thing allows the other poster to ignore my specific points. So they don't get addressed.

And that makes me think the other poster simply doesn't want to engage in my points, or questions.

Marvin Knox · Mar 30, 2018

justbyfaith said:
If you want to have a dialogue with me, then quote my whole post and THEN address the WHOLE of my post. Cutting my post in pieces and addressing it line by line is not going to cut it with me, that is one of my pet peeves. After only a few responses, it makes things confusing if both parties are doing the same thing: what was originally said, and the train of thought, is too easily lost track of.

It's a rare conversation when everything a person says is wrong.

Restating everything you said would be redundant at best.

It can be good part of good dialog to state that a particular point made by someone is a good point. It's not done as often here as it should be.

None the less - in this particular section of the forum - the discussion usually takes the form of a debate. We attempt to do as the scriptures tell us to do. We correct wrong doctrine and show where it is wrong. Occasionally we even rebuke people who have gone completely off the rails.

How are we to do that if we don't zero in on what we consider to be wrong in the other person's post?

Of course in a debate one side is usually either wrong or at least not as right as the other. That means that each side states his points as if he were right - even if he isn't.

Seldom does the wrong person admit it when he has been shown the error of his reasoning. That's a crying shame in Christian debates IMO. But then we are all sinners aren't we.

All that to say that your wasting everyone's time if you expect them to address the whole of your post each time they respond IMO.

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