Soul sleep or heaven which is the truth?

LoveofTruth said:

Also here’s more

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he liftup his eyes, being intorments, and seethAbraham afar off, andLazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said,Father Abraham, havemercy on me, and send Lazarus , that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,and cool my tongue; for Iam tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son,remember that thou in thylifetime receivedst thy goodthings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but nowhe is comforted, and thouart tormented. 26 Andbeside all this, between usand you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence toyou cannot; neither canthey pass to us, that wouldcome from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray theetherefore, father, that thouwouldest send him to myfather's house: 28 For Ihave five brethren; that hemay testify unto them, lest they also come into thisplace of torment.”

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This is a parable. It doesn't even fit your narative. Notice that they have body parts. These are people with bodies, not disembodied ghosts. It's a story. It's a judgment against the leadership of Israel. That's why Jesus is saying it to the Pharisees. He's not teaching them about an afterlife.

Butch5 said:

The Scriptures don't teach this idea that the dead are alive. It was the Greeks who taught that.

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Wrong

“. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, thoughhe were dead, yet shall helive: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Butch5 said:

This is a parable. It doesn't even fit your narative. Notice that they have body parts. These are people with bodies, not disembodied ghosts. It's a story. It's a judgment against the leadership of Israel. That's why Jesus is saying it to the Pharisees. He's not teaching them about an afterlife.

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Mark 9:45 KJV
"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into

LoveofTruth said:

Wrong

“. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, thoughhe were dead, yet shall helive: 26 And whosoever livery and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

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Did you read this passage before you posted it? It says right in though he were dead, yet shall he live and whoever lives shall never die. So, what we see here is a person who was dead, then was raised and lives and he shall never die. It's speaking of a believer who has been resurrected.

LoveofTruth said:

Mark 9:45 KJV
"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into

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What's your point?

BobRyan said:

Because the debate is not about what happens when you die - the debate is about the future resurrection. A not-so-subtle detail.

Matt 22:23-32
In that day there came near to him Sadducees, who are saying there is no resurrection
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

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but your understanding of the verses depends on what your assumptions of what the Resurrection is like.


resurrection occurs for the ones who die first which is why they would be raised beforehand which would mean that they are there with Jesus already. so we would be as the angels of heaven in the resurrection due to there being no difference between angels and the kinds of glorified bodies we will have because the celestial bodies are based on the nature of our soul and spirit which is why people in the earth can't know how their celestial body is going to be like.

it seems that when we die instead of being naked we will become all the more clothed with our celestial body. verses like these make more sense to me from the way I view things.

Phil 1:21-26 (YLT)
for to me to live is Christ, and to die gain. And if to live in the flesh is to me a fruit of work, then what shall I choose? I know not; for I am pressed by the two, having the desire to depart, and to be with Christ, for it is far better, and to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account, and of this being persuaded, I have known that I shall remain and continue with you all, to your advancement and joy of the faith, that your boasting may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence again to you.

Phil 3:20-21 (YLT)
For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await--the Lord Jesus Christ-- who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

1Cor 15:35-50 (YLT)
But some one will say, `How do the dead rise? unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die; and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others, and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;

and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly; one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory. So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of heaven; as is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly; and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly. And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

why would we even look for a new heaven and earth unless the first ones are going to be melted and refined by fire, thus giving birth to a transfigured reality which already exist but is not yet fully there because this old age remains for however much longer God desires.

but I think the idea of the future resurrection is somewhat compatible with the other/new world being thought of as the future but it is a future that is bigger than space-time. it is more like a lifting up or ascension of reality which I think Jesus implied due to him being raised from the dead and ascending to his Father... and he implied that we will follow him.

2Pet 3:9-13 (YLT)
the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation, and it will come--the day of the Lord--as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts? waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt; and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;

a mystery is by it's very nature something that is not easy to understand.

1Cor 15:51-57
lo, I tell you a mystery; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up--to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law; and to God--thanks, to Him who is giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ;

this seems to be describing both a spiritual transformation for some and also the process of what occurs after someone dies. so the first fruits that are like Jesus was while in this world have already went through certain kinds of spiritual changes and for others it will happened when they die.

Which explains why all the focus for the NT saints - was on the 2nd coming
1 Peter 1:13

Having no desire at all to be in that "unclothed state" but rather to be rid of this aging tent - and to be with the Lord having the resurrected body at the second coming 'Thus shall we ever Be WITH the Lord" 1 Thess 4


And at death they are "dormant" as Paul said in 1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It's all right there -- plain as day.

Phil 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

It's all right there -- plain as day.

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then come

It's all right there -- plain as day

Noxot said:

yeah keep saying it's plain as day.

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Agreed I do keep saying that - and the text I am pointing at - makes the case. Easy to read. Obvious meaning and none of my texts are "parables".


Matthew 22 Christ argues that God cannot be the God of Abraham while Abraham is dead - apart from the future bodily resurrection. His point to the Sadducees was that this was the only possible solution as He said "But regarding the resurrection of the dead - have you not heard what was said..."

Noxot said:

what I read sounds plain to me and what you read sounds plain to you

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Nice -we are both happy with the text then and won't mind seeing it posted a few times. I have no problem with that.

Sola Scriptura testing ... all the way.
...


Matt 22:23-32
In that day there came near to him Sadducees, who are saying there is no resurrection
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Noxot said:

but your understanding of the verses depends on what your assumptions of what the Resurrection is like.


resurrection occurs for the ones who die first which is why they would be raised beforehand which would mean that they are there with Jesus already.

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No text says that.

All contexts show future reference - no 'resurrections been happening all along... every time someone dies we see a resurrection" no such texts in all of scripture - as we both probably would admit.

There is no 'At the last trump - the saint are already resurrected " but we do see the resurrected Christ that we are "eagerly waiting for" -- nothing like that for dead saints is said in the NT or OT.

Phil 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Noxot said:

it seems that when we die instead of being naked we will become all the more clothed with our celestial body. .

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No text says that.. rather the texts for the resurrection and the new body -- all point to the coming of Christ at the end of the age. The future event -- not at all claiming that all of those who "have fallen asleep in Jesus" are sleeping in new bodies.

BobRyan said:

All contexts show future reference - no 'resurrections been happening all along... every time someone dies we see a resurrection" no such texts in all of scripture - as we both probably would admit.

There is no 'At the last trump - the saint are already resurrected " but we do see the resurrected Christ that we are "eagerly waiting for" -- nothing like that for dead saints is said in the NT or OT.

Phil 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

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it's your assumption that there is a few or one mass future resurrection event. if interpretation of the bible is so easy then why does the bible say things like this?

John 16:12-16 (YLT)
`I have yet many things to say to you, but ye are not able to bear them now; and when He may come--the Spirit of truth--He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you; He will glorify me, because of mine He will take, and will tell to you. `All things, as many as the Father hath, are mine; because of this I said, That of mine He will take, and will tell to you; a little while, and ye do not behold me, and again a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go away unto the Father.'

John 3:3-8 (YLT)
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?' Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

1Cor 2:10-16 (YLT)
but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned; and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.


when a seed is sown it dies and then a plant sprouts up and the little husky of the seed clings on for a while before being cast off. the husk of the seed is the flesh life. we are fundamentally soul and spirit, our soul is the image of our spirit and serves as our eternal body.

we await eagerly for our life to be ended in the flesh but that does not mean that we are not in heaven already even though when we die we will be more aware of heaven.

those who are in this world base their spirit on conforming to their flesh and they believe that more than anything that they are flesh rather than the flesh serving in helping to shape their souls and spirits. so they view Resurrection as the Resurrection of their flesh because they do not know of any other body but their flesh body, even though their soul is also a body for the spirit.

the flesh transforms in such a way that only the purest elements of it can remain in heaven.

I guess we differ so much in our interpretation of the bible due to the differences of ideas of what heaven is and what is mans destiny and how fundamental soul and spirit is to people in comparison to their flesh. and there are probably differences in our understanding of what angels and evil spirits are in comparison to humans. probably also in how the bible communicates truth.

whatever anyone accepts as truth will be the general types of spirits you will hang around and become like. the flesh is a kind of spirit. there is no interpretation of the bible without spirits. that is how one can have earthly wisdom or heavenly wisdom, depending on who you get your wisdom from.

the last trump is a symbol for a spiritual process of theosis or salvation occurring in some peoples spirits and souls. heaven is spirit and so is hell which means what we are as spirit is where we "dwell" in the spiritual reality, which God orders and is sovereign over.

BobRyan said:

No text says that.. rather the texts for the resurrection and the new body -- all point to the coming of Christ at the end of the age. The future event -- not at all claiming that all of those who "have fallen asleep in Jesus" are sleeping in new bodies.

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we exist in two ages already. this one and the next one. when this age ends for me I will rejoice because this world is slavery and toil and a burden. I already exist in the next age, it's why I don't want to live in this age you are in now. I get tired of existing around so many beings in this age who are sleeping and who seem to me to be somewhat dead.

Christ already came and he is still here too. one of his main purposes for being born in the flesh was to show us the nature of reality that had been hidden from many of us i.e. that we are spirits and not just creatures.

Matt 28:20 (YLT)
teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full end of the age.'

imo you just don't understand the nature of the soul or the spirit. i.e. that they are a kind of body. the Holy Spirit is Gods kingdom/ presence in people, which means that angels that have God in them are the comforter that God works through and they are Christ hands and feet and ect, just like humans who partake of God are also like.

Noxot said:

we exist in two ages already. this one and the next one. when this age ends for me I will rejoice because this world is slavery and toil and a burden. I already exist in the next age, it's why I don't want to live in this age you are in now. I get tired of existing around so many beings in this age who are sleeping and who seem to me to be somewhat dead.

Christ already came and he is still here too. one of his main purposes for being born in the flesh was to show us the nature of reality that had been hidden from many of us i.e. that we are spirits and not just creatures.

Matt 28:20 (YLT)
teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full end of the age.'

imo you just don't understand the nature of the soul or the spirit. i.e. that they are a kind of body. the Holy Spirit is Gods kingdom/ presence in people, which means that angels that have God in them are the comforter that God works through and they are Christ hands and feet and ect, just like humans who partake of God are also like.

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From the book Immortal by Lex Meyer

pp.28-29
The Bible tells us that death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.iii This is our great hope, and it is central to the gospel message. When we realize that death is an enemy, the gospel is much more significant to our lives.

Some people hold to the misguided belief that our soul (or spirit) continues to live after our body dies, however, death is defined as the end of life, not the continuation of it. There is a popular phrase that states, “death is only the beginning”, but this is a very irrational and untrue statement, since death is by definition “the end of life”.

To say that life begins (or continues) at death is a denial that death is an enemy. In fact, to those who hold this belief, death might even bee seen as a friend who brings comfort and relief from this bodily life. However, this idea is completely contrary to the Bible.

People have often searched for ways to cheat death and live forever, but only one person has ever truly defeated death, and only through Him are we able to escape this great enemy. Yeshua triumphed victoriously over death in the resurrection, showing that He truly has power over both life and death.

Paul explains that it “has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”i Conquering death is part of the gospel, because we cannot have eternal life unless death is destroyed.

http://www.immortalthebook.com/docs/Immortal-Book.pdf

LoveofTruth said:

Believers wait for the redemption of our bodies. But the body sleeps in the grave and the spirit goes up, or the soul.

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Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This verse is the first mention of "soul" in the Bible. Notice that it took two things for the "soul" to become, dirt and the breath of life without either there is no "soul". God gave the Breath of life. The soul is not a separate entity it is the whole person.

If you can find another definition of the soul and what it consists of please share it with us.

Please share with us where you equate the spirit = Soul from scripture.

It appears to be where you take a hard left turn on the issue of this thread.

I am deeply sorry that you think that you have an immortal soul as that is against scripture and that equates to you being equal to GOD per the following verse.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Remember what satan said in the Garden of Eden
Genesis 3:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Original Happy Camper said:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This verse is the first mention of "soul" in the Bible. Notice that it took two things for the "soul" to become, dirt and the breath of life without either there is no "soul". God gave the Breath of life. The soul is not a separate entity it is the whole person.

If you can find another definition of the soul and what it consists of please share it with us.

Please share with us where you equate the spirit = Soul from scripture.

It appears to be where you take a hard left turn on the issue of this thread.

I am deeply sorry that you think that you have an immortal soul as that is against scripture and that equates to you being equal to GOD per the following verse.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Remember what satan said in the Garden of Eden
Genesis 3:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

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Good points.

I found being " born again" to be one of my ah-hah moments of this doctrine.


From the book Immortal by Lex Meyer

pp.92-93
Born Again
Believers often talk about being “born again”. It is one of the most common phrases used in modern Christianity. We hear people claim to the “born again believers”, but do we truly understand what that means? For the most part, it has become a catchphrase that is used to identify believers, a synonym for “Christian”, but is that really what Yeshua meant when He said, “you must be born again”ii?

Yeshua was speaking to a Pharisee named Nicodemus when He said, “unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”i He then chastised the man for not understanding what He was talking about, saying, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?”ii There is an implied expectation that this Pharisee should have understood what it meant to be “born again”. Which means it was something this “teacher of Israel” should have already known.

It would be ridiculous to think that Yeshua expected a “teacher of Israel” to have prior knowledge that he must convert to a new religion called “Christianity” before he can enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, we cannot conclude that being born again means converting to a new religion.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."iii

According to Yeshua, we must be born again before we can see the kingdom of God. At first glance, this might seem like a strange phrase, but when we dig a little deeper, we find that Paul made a similar statement that helps bring better understanding to what Yeshua is talking about.

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.”iv

When we examine the context of what Paul is writing, we see that he is contrasting our earthly body to the spiritual body we will receive at the resurrection. He starts out by explaining that our current body is flesh, and comes from
Adam, but the future body we will receive is spiritual, and comes from Yeshua.
(see 1 Corinthians 15:42-50)

http://www.immortalthebook.com/docs/Immortal-Book.pdf

To put a finer point on being "born again" looking at the scriptures brings a whole new light on the subject.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Here we can see that being "born again" is a prerequisite for seeing the kingdom of God.


I Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Here we can see that being "born again" is associated with the resurrection. It is our "hope".

Consider what our hope is:

I Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(The word "revelation" here means "appearing" or "coming" [Strongs 602])


I Peter 1:22-25 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, And all its glory like the flower of grass.The grass withers, And the flower falls off, 25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Here our flesh is equated to perishable grass but being "born again" carries the meaning of being everlasting.


To sum up, being "born again" would seem to indicate the time of the resurrection when the mortal will put on immortality. At that point, as Yeshua said, we will see the kingdom of God.

I would like to add that it is not entirely incorrect to call ourselves "born again".

If we had a rich relative to pass away and we were to inherit 1 million dollars, which the proper authority has already confirmed. Even if we have not received the money yet we could still claim to be a millionaire. We would simply have to wait on the certainty of the funds to be delivered.

In the same way, by the Holy Spirit of promise we can claim that we are "born again" even though we have not realized it yet. It is a "done deal" although it is not done yet.


Eph 1:12-14 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Original Happy Camper said:

This verse is the first mention of "soul" in the Bible. Notice that it took two things for the "soul" to become, dirt and the breath of life without either there is no "soul". God gave the Breath of life. The soul is not a separate entity it is the whole person.

If you can find another definition of the soul and what it consists of please share it with us...
I am deeply sorry that you think that you have an immortal soul as that is against scripture and that equates to you being equal to GOD per the following verse.

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"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matthew 10:28 KJV)

"21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."(James 1:21 KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Thess 5:23 KJV)

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Hebrews 4:12 KJV)

"9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."(Psalms 16:9,10)

"
1 Kings 17:22
And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."

Job 27:8
For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?"

ob 33:30
To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living."

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"(Revelation 6:9,10 KJV)

LoveofTruth said:

"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matthew 10:28 KJV)

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Every person who has died on this earth will be resurrected either at the second coming of Jesus Christ, first resurrection to eternal life)

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

body and breath of life rejoined becoming a living soul again.

Revelation 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The fate of the wicked
Malachi 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

After the second resurrection of the wicked they will
Romans 14:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

then the wicked souls are consumed by fire never to be resurrected again.

HELL IN THE BIBLE IS THE GRAVE not an every lasting burning place

The fire is everlasting not the fuel.
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Original Happy Camper said:

Every person who has died on this earth will be resurrected either at the second coming of Jesus Christ, first resurrection to eternal life)

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

body and breath of life rejoined becoming a living soul again.

Revelation 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The fate of the wicked
Malachi 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

After the second resurrection of the wicked they will
Romans 14:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

then the wicked souls are consumed by fire never to be resurrected again.

HELL IN THE BIBLE IS THE GRAVE not an every lasting burning place

The fire is everlasting not the fuel.
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

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Sorry, your doctrine is in error and it will take me a lot of expounding to deal with it further. But I do believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a real story. Jesus did not teach fables. That story alone , (although there is much than can be shown to expose to heresy of the soul being unconscious after death or as it is known the false doctrine of "soul sleep")

When the body does it sleep in the grave. The soul and spirit go to the Lord. The person dos not cease to exist and only exist in the memory of God, no Jesus said he is the God of the living not the dead. The souls cried out after death to God in revelation6 and I gave a few, (just a few) verses previously about the soul.

But in this discussion the "soul" and "spirit" need to be examined as well and the many verses that show the spirits had Jesus preach to them and he led captivity captive. That Jesus descended to hell and led them captive with him. This place of hell he preached in was paradise, where OT saints were kept before Jesus finished the work on the cross. They were hid with God in Christ. The devil argued over the body of Moses (or as i understand it the OT saints who were baptized unto Moses) and he may have thought they belonged to him and should be in torments.

When Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mountain they were in spirit form and vanished. This must be the case because Moses died. Elijah is a bit more difficult because he was literally taken to heaven and we don't know what happened to him.

Also I am STRONGLY against many of the SDA doctrine, so much in fact that we would be here for days and day, maybe weeks exposing the errors. I have heard the way some SDA try to share their views on many things and truthfully it is very troubling.

In dealing with the sabbath of the ten commandments read 2 Cor 3:7 and on. The law written on stones (the ten commandments) and its ministry is done away, abolished, a ministration of death and condemnation. But today even when many read the Old testament the veil is on the heart.

I am curious how you answer verses like this

"Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

LoveofTruth said:

"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matthew 10:28 KJV)

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Do you believe that the soul of the unbeliever will be destroyed?

"21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."(James 1:21 KJV)

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Good word! Was there a point for your position here?

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Thess 5:23 KJV)

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Good word. Was there a point for your position here?

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Hebrews 4:12 KJV)

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Do you think there is a difference between soul and spirit?

"9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

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10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."(Psalms 16:9,10)

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What does "rest in hope" mean to you? Is it something that is possessed now or something that is waited for?
(Notice that the word "hell" in this verse is she'ol which means the place of the dead, i.e., the grave)

1 Kings 17:22

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And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."

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This would seem to say that the child came back to life in the most straightforward meaning. Could this happen without the spirit of the child? Would the spirit returning cause the child to become a living soul again, like Adam was created?

Job 27:8

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For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?"

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Job 27:8 “For what is the hope of the godless when he is cut off, When God requires his life? NASB

The godless have no hope after death. No soul = no life.

ob 33:30

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To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living."

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Yes, God can do that as illustrated by Yeshua. Was there a point for your position here?

Acts 2:31

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He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

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Again, a reference to the grave.
You should have read down to verse 34:

Acts 2:34 For it was not David who ascended into
heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

Hebrews 10:39

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But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

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Yes, our souls will be preserved. Was there a point for your position here?

From LoveofTruth

Revelation 20:4

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

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"9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"(Revelation 6:9,10 KJV)

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From the book IMMORTAL by Lex Meyer

pp.208-210
The book of Revelation speaks about the souls of martyrs being under the altar. Does that mean the dead martyrs are currently in heaven?

Why are these people just hanging around under the altar? An altar is a place of sacrifice and offering. It is used in worship, and the sacrifices that are placed on the altar are dedicated and offered up to God. Saying that the martyrs are under the altar conveys the idea that they offered their lives as a sacrifice to God, as an act of worship. These people were willing to die for their faith, and it is considered an act of worship to God. In fact, Paul encourages believers to consider themselves to be a “living sacrifice”.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."i

So, it is not difficult to see how these men and women poured out their lives as a type of sacrifice. Their blood is considered to be a sacrifice of devotion, not atonement.

However, the Bible says, “the dead know nothing”ii, and they “do not praise the Lord”iii, so how can dead souls cry out from under the altar?” This is very similar to another story found in the book of Genesis, in which the blood of Abel, the first martyr, cries out from the ground.

"Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground."iv

We understand this to be a literary device in which Abel’s blood is personified in a type of anthropomorphism. His blood did not actually have a voice, but it symbolically cried out from the ground. In like manner, the book of Hebrews tells us that Abel continues to speak from the grave because of his more excellent sacrifice.

“By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was
righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.”i

This same type of literary device is being applied to the “martyrs under the altar”, who are able to cry out even though they are currently dead. The dead souls do not literally speak, but they are symbolically crying out to God just as Abel’s blood did.

The martyrs are also told to “rest a little while longer”, which indicates they are still sleeping in their graves, waiting the resurrection.

According to the Bible, the priests were instructed to place some of the blood on the horns of the altar of incense, but they poured most of it on the ground below the altar of burnt offering.ii Revelation also mentions these “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”iii This could indicate that the prayers of the martyrs were the sacrifices that ascend like incense up to heaven.

The book of Revelation is not telling us that disembodied souls are sitting under the altar in heaven. It is trying to convey the idea that the martyrs have not been forgotten, and their sacrifice was not in vain. Their lives are received as a act of worship, and although they are dead, God hears their cries, and He will set things right in His perfect timing.

It serves as a reminder that God has not forgotten His people, even during times of tribulation.

http://www.immortalthebook.com/docs/Immortal-Book.pdf