The Gog n Magog war will happen before the Tribulation

phydaux

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This white horse is Jesus Christ.

context, context, context.

The four horsemen of Revelation chapter 6 are:

White Horse - The Antichrist
Red Horse - War
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Death

There is a fifth horseman in Revelation, in chapter 19. That is Jesus.
 
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phydaux

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Christ, our Deliverer, went forth conquering and to conquer through His Church, Covenant Israel, until all of His People has been sealed

That's Replacement Theology. That's one view. One that a lot of people who post in the sub-forum don't subscribe to.

So it's not us who don't understand. We understand and acknowledge your view, and your right to it. We don't agree with you, but we're not going to denigrate you for holding the view that you do.

Please extend to us the same courtesy.
 
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phydaux

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I have heard it taught by very knowledgeable bible scholars that Armageddon is more than one war - a few that culminate in the major battle in the end that most people think of when they think of Armageddon which may be why there are a few diverse views

Hmmm.... That's not a view that I have run across before, and I flatter myself by thinking I'm rather well read on this topic, and familiar with the various common views.
 
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jgr

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Dude, Hartono has "Messiah" in quotes, indication that he was referring to a false messiah.

I picked up on that. How did you not? Unless you're just stirring the pot.

Honestly, sometimes I think the regular posters on the sub-forum need to wear name tags with things like "Replacement Theologist" or "#MidTribRapture."
His "Messiah" is in quotes, but Daniel's isn't. Daniel's is the true unquoted Messiah, the Prince and Son of God.

Why didn't you pick up on that?
 
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jgr

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That's Replacement Theology. That's one view. One that a lot of people who post in the sub-forum don't subscribe to.

So it's not us who don't understand. We understand and acknowledge your view, and your right to it. We don't agree with you, but we're not going to denigrate you for holding the view that you do.

Please extend to us the same courtesy.
Is this replacement theology?

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
 
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shilohsfoal

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I think you are mixing the Gog/Magog invasion with Battle of Armageddon, seeing them as the same battle. This is a common and valid view, but it is by no means the only view.

While it is absolutely true that the Battle of Armageddon, as described in Revelation 20, never actually happens because it is interrupted by our Lord's triumphant return. But some scholars see the Gog/Magog invasion as a separate battle. That is also a common and valid view, and that's what this thread is about.

No im,not mixing anything up.
First ,the war of Armegeddon which is a devastating war .
Then 1000 years after that war,Gog invades the land of Israel with many weapons but no human fights against him.You see,Gog comes against a peaceful and unsuspecting people who live carelessly.
These people who Gog comes against don't fight back.

Ezekiel 38:11 You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people--all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

Can you show me one verse that says Israel fights, or that there is even a war between Gog and Israel?

Ezekiel 38:14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it?

If iIsrael is safe when Gog invades Israel ,then there is nothing Gog can do to hurt a single servant ofGod.It is appointed for these to die once.

Revelation 20:4 KJV: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

They will dwell is Israel without walls or bars.They will be a peaceful people who live carelessly and they will be perfectly ssafe .For 1000 years they will live in the land of Israel and that is when Gog invades.But there is no war.
God will destroy Gog.

Ps
Ezekiel mentioned the war of Armegeddon briefly in this text.That is the war that devastates the land 1000 years before Gog invades Israel.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.
 
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phydaux

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No im,not mixing anything up.

I said mixing, not "mixing up." The second implies error. I did not imply any error, just a difference.

I even went on to validate your view, stating that it is a common one. But other views do exist. And this thread is discussing one of those views.

Can we have a conversation on non-critical doctrinal matters where we don't either harshly belittle other people who don't hold to our view, or condescendingly try to "usher" them to our way of thinking?
 
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shilohsfoal

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I said mixing, not "mixing up." The second implies error. I did not imply any error, just a difference.

I even went on to validate your view, stating that it is a common one. But other views do exist. And this thread is discussing one of those views.

Can we have a conversation on non-critical doctrinal matters where we don't either harshly belittle other people who don't hold to our view, or condescendingly try to "usher" them to our way of thinking?

Ok.But its not called mixing in scripture.It caled going to and fro and increasing knowledge.
The followers of Judaism maybelieve Gog would invade Israel at any time because they reject Christ and are not given this revelation.
But those of us who except Christ and belong to him know war of armegeddon takes place first.
Those who reject Christ are kept in darkness not knowing what is in store for them.They are completely unaware of the punishment for worshiping the beast or his image or recieving his mark because this is not spelled out for them anywhere else in,sscripture.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Just more replacement theology nonsense

Accusing anyone of Replacement Theology is a red herring.

I don't like such labels, but honestly, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." I think so. You can call it whatever you like, but the message that God's word puts forth will still shine through to any objective reader.

Mrk 11:13-14
  • "And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
  • And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it."
Mark 11:20-21
  • "And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
  • And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."
Matthew 21:42-44
  • "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  • And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
You can call it whatever you want, but the message God gives is clear. God's visible Kingdom or congregation upon earth up to this time was represented by the nation of Israel. But Christ is now making it clear that that kingdom of God representation shall be taken from the Nation of Israel and given to a nation that will bring forth the fruits thereof. Namely, the congregation that is the church would now hold that distinction. And let's be clear, these words are neither polysemous, subtle, abstruse or difficult. They're not subject to private interpretations or out of context revisions. The Messiah and Kingdom of Israel that prophesy foretold was rejected by them, and therefore they were cursed with blindness (in part) to never bear fruit as a nation again, as they would no longer be the representatives of God's Kingdom on earth. Christ clearly taught that the Kingdom has been taken from them, and given to the church, who will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, rather than the flesh. He of course context reveals as the foundation stone of this restoration of the Kingdom of Christ. Again, use whatever word you choose, call it whatever you want, the Biblical facts of Scripture are without ambiguity concerning their judgment, what that concerned, and who are the children of God and who are not. i.e., anyone who rejects Christ, by definition cannot be the children of the Kingdom.

Acts 4:10-12
  • "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
  • This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
  • Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Israel cannot be saved by still rejecting Christ, cannot be the kingdom, cannot be the children of God or the election. Neither is there salvation in any other person, place or thing. There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. So while you talk about a miracle of the birth of a nation that you also say could never have been un-birthed or not a nation in the first place, the Bible says differently. Biblical facts, versus visions and delusions of grandeur. You can call it Supersessionism, You can call it Restoration Theology, you can call it Replacement Theology, you can call it Antisemitism, but God calls it biblical fact.

Deal with it.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Dude, Hartono has "Messiah" in quotes, indication that he was referring to a false messiah.

I picked up on that. How did you not? Unless you're just stirring the pot.

Honestly, sometimes I think the regular posters on the sub-forum need to wear name tags with things like "Replacement Theologist" or "#MidTribRapture."

God did not talk about a fake messiah, an evil prince, or a third party in Daniel 9:27! The "he" is referred to Messiah the Prince ACCORDING TO CONTEXT who is Jesus Christ. You can't say that verse 26 is talking about Christ and then the next verse replaces "he" with someone else based on your wild interpretation of little horn, beast, antichrist, man of sin, etc. from other books.

Daniel's 70 week is all God's Salvation plan with Himself as Messiah the Prince for His people, Covenant Israel which we all related to Daniel in CHRIST! Not about Jews, national Israel, or evil prince.
 
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TribulationSigns

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context, context, context.

Context? What are you talking about?! Don't you know how to compare Scripture with the rest of the Scripture and allow it to be its own interpreter concerning horsemen? I am not interested in your private interpretation or one liner without Scripture support whatsoever!

White Horse - The Antichrist

Please provide a Scripture to confirm that the white horse must be antichrist.

Red Horse - War

Please provide a Scripture to confirm that he will bring physical war.

Black Horse - Famine

Please provide a Scripture to confirm that he will bring physical famine.

Pale Horse - Death

Please provide a Scripture to confirm that he will bring physical fatal disease.

There is a fifth horseman in Revelation, in chapter 19. That is Jesus.

NO such thing as "fifth" horseman. You obviously made it up. Don't you know how to compare Scripture with Scripture? Let me refute your position biblically:

Biblical precedence or at least biblical warrant is necessary. We can't just suurmise that because there are a lot of evil horses there, the white one is evil too. The truth of the symbolism is found only in comparing scripture with scripture. Comparing one image of rider with another image of rider. Not comparing the image of a rider with the image of a beast. We have to have consistency throughout. Let's start by comparing the two riders. Does this rider in Revelation chapter six compare favorably to the "figures" of Satan that God inspires in scripture? The answer is No. Do they compare with the "figure" God inspires as representing Christ? Thew answer is Yes. Let's compare.

Revelation 6:2
  • "And I saw, and behold a White Horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
Revelation 19:11-12
  • "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a White Horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
  • His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
They compare favorably. In fact, almost identically right down to His coming for warfare, and the crown symbolizing He rules. The question is, why would anyone (based upon what is written in Revelation 6:2) think that this rider on the white horse is someone different from the rider on the white horse in Revelation nineteen? There certainly is nothing (at all) in Revelation 6:2 that would lead us to believe He is a different rider. So where would we get the idea? ..I submit that it comes from man's own reasoning and teachings, rather than what is actually written there.

First consideration. Satan's strength is NEVER symbolized by the color white. And the horses are the symbol of the rider's strength. When you mount an army (in those days) your strength was measured by your number of horsemen. Horsemen gave you the advantage of strength in war. And colors (like numbers) carry great spiritual significance. White 'unquestionably' symbolizes purity or righteousness. i.e., the great white throne, the white stone, the clean white robes given the elect, the white cloud that the son of man sat on, the hair white like wool, etc., etc. And here, the "White" horse is in that very same vein of symbols found in the rest of the book of Revelation.

Horse = Strength of battle
White = Righteousness
Horseman on a white horse = He who comes in strength of Righteous for warfare.

= Christ!

Christ judges and makes war in righteousness. This color white is not "incidental" in revelation, it is in harmony with the symbolism in revelation. This is no small matter to be cast aside as insignificant (as some do). Because interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture, and that is "extremely" important. Why would God use white to symbolize the rider coming in righteousness in one book of Revelation, and then assign that color to Satan's horse? He's not coming in the strength of righteousness. It makes no sense. Some say because he is a false prophet, but God doesn't need to assign the color white to a horse to show false prophecy. A White horse doesn't symbolize false prophecy, it symbolizes riding in truth, purity, cleanness, and righteousness. We have our two identifiers. The horseman symbolizing He comes in strength (Job 39:19; Isaiah 31:1; Psalm 33:17; Psalm 147:10) of warfare, and color of the horse being white to symbolize He comes in righteous warfare and judgment. Just as Revelation 19 also so clearly illustrates. And as all of Revelation postulates:

Revelation 16:7
  • "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."
Christ comes in righteous judgments and the white horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes righteousness, just as Revelation nineteen does. They are synonymous with each other, the very same symbolism. It is inconsistent for us to say that the white Horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes Satan, and then claim the white horse in Revelation chapter nineteen does not. That it switches and now symbolizes Christ. Where is the logic for such an abrupt change? They are both white horses! If there is one thing I have learned in my study of the scriptures, it is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error," and is almost always the vehicle of every wrong interpretation. ie., you can't have the Candlesticks in Revelation 2 symbolize the Church, and then turn around in Revelation chapter 11 and claim it now represents two physical men who will come and witness. This is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. Consistency is paramount, and God declares that it is in "Righteousness" that this rider on the white horse goes forth to judge and make war. Again, total agreement and harmony with the horse (symbolizing strength of battle) being white.

In Revelation chapter 19 we see this rider has many crowns (illustrating He is King of Kings and rules over many nations). And in Revelation 6 When the seal is loosed we see this rider is given a kingdom (symbolized by the crown). Again, total agreement with Christ going forth in righteousness. Christ was crowned king of kings and Lord of lords by his meritorious work and suffering on the cross. He established His kingdom by that suffering and death. ..to this end was He born.

Hebrews 2:9
  • "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Matthew 27:29
  • "And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

So mock as they would, the truth is, Jesus was crowned King of the Jews by this meritorious work on the cross. He was given a crown, He did "establish" this kingdom by this work. And so again, we have complete and total harmony with the figure being representative of Christ given a crown, and not Satan. Satan hardly rides forth on the vehicle of righteousness (white horse) that he goes forth "both" conquering (overcoming) and to conquer (overcome). This can only be Christ who rides thusly. He is this warrior crowned King and we are his army on white horses who are in battle in this spiritual warfare with Him.

Revelation 17:14
  • "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
Revelation 12:11
  • "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The symbolism of this warfare which Christ goes forth conquering and to conquer permeates all throughout scripture.

Notice also that He has a bow in Revelation chapter six. Many have postulated that this proves that this is not Christ, because Christ doesn't have a bow in revelation chapter nineteen. Someone also told me, "..See Christ has no sword in Revelation chapter 6, so that proves it's not Christ." But this is all a self-serving exegesis. Such interpretations are easily debunked. For example, Christ has hair which is white like wool in Revelation chapter one, but it isn't mentioned in Revelation nineteen. Does that mean that Christ in Revelation chapter one is not Christ in revelation nineteen? Of course not. That would be a nonsensical way of interpreting. True interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture in the light of the "Whole" Bible. Doing that is the only way to come to real truth. So let's do are the more noble Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things are true. Where else do we see this horseman riding with this bow? Is it an image of Satan or Christ?

Psalms 7:11-13
  • "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
  • If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his Bow, and made it ready.
  • He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors."

Here is the Lord pictured as with His bow and His arrows and coming in judgment (Revelation 6), and His whet sword (Revelation 19). These symbolisms in Revelation are not an untraditional teaching, it is a teaching as old as the scriptures themselves. Interpretations belong to God. When we see Christ riding in Revelation chapter six in righteousness with a bow, it "Should" send us right to the Psalms where we unambiguously see the very same spiritual pictures. ..and He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Psalms 45:3-7
  • " Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
  • And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
  • Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
  • Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
  • Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

Who is this horseman with a bow, who rides a horse in righteousness? Is it Satan? No, it is Christ that has been anointed King, been given a crown, is riding prosperously with this bow in "Righteousness" to judge and make war. How much clearer can it get. Moreover, God confirms the fulfillment of this prophecy of Christ in Hebrews as He quotes this of Jesus.

Hebrews 1:8
  • "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Taken directly from that Psalm. Clearly, the idea that the rider in Revelation 6:2 cannot be Christ because He has a bow is nonsensical, and because He has no sword is also shown to be untenable. Here in Psalms 45 we see this rider Christ has both sword and bow and goes forth riding prosperiously conquering and to conquer. And He has been given a crown.

Luke 1:32-33
  • "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
  • And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Indeed He is given a crown, and indeed He does go forth conquering and to conquer. In Revelation chapter six the crown given the rider in righteousness is no contradiction to Revelation nineteen. Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. In other words, overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to Prevail! Satan doesn't qualify. satan may overcome temporarily, but not to overcome ultimately.

The white horse is the strength of Christ's warfare, whereupon he rides when he goes to conquer and subdue new converts and translate them into his kingdom. He comes in the strength of His majesty, truth, meekness, and righteousness, which are made known in the preaching of his gospel. He goes forth tearing down strongholds, that the gates of hell cannot stand against him. He frees the prisoners therein. A spiritual warfare where we are either an army with Christ, or an army against him.

Luke 11:21-23p
  • "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
  • He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

The gates of Hell shall not prevail against Christ, he shall break down those gates, free the prisoners, and build His Church. As this rider on the white horse, He goes forth conquering and to conquer, and thus, over the last 2000 years the Church has been built.

There is no mention anywhere of Satan going forth righteously riding on a white horse, conquering and to conquer.

Selah!
 
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DavidPT

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Do you even know what they represent?

What I do know is this. I know what one of them doesn't represent, that being the rider on the white horse. I know that doesn't represent Christ in that particular context.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Usually via wars the idea is to go forth conquering, and to conquer. Even if a literal war is not meant here, the idea is still the same as if it were a literal war. I wonder how many saints die at the hands of the enemy once verse 11 above begins being fulfilled? None would be my guess. I wonder how many saints die at the hands of the enemy once Revelation 6:2 begins being fulfilled? Numerous saints would be my guess. I would then think, in regards to Christ, going forth conquering, and to conquer, that is fulfilled as of Revelation 19:11. Revelation 6:2 is meaning before the time of Revelation 19:11.

until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). This is meaning once these 4 horsemen begin fulfilling what is prophesied of them.


Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

It's not even debatable as to whom the above is meaning. Not only does Revelation 19 also have a rider on a white horse, this rider is wearing many crowns, where the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is said to only be wearing one crown.
 
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TribulationSigns

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No im,not mixing anything up.
First ,the war of Armegeddon which is a devastating war .
Then 1000 years after that war,Gog invades the land of Israel with many weapons but no human fights against him.You see,Gog comes against a peaceful and unsuspecting people who live carelessly.
These people who Gog comes against don't fight back.

Ezekiel 38:2-4
[2] Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
[3] And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
[4] And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

Revelation 20:7-9

[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20 are talking about the SAME SPIRITUAL WAR. It is not a physical war against national Israel in the Middle East like you believe. There will not be two wars separated by 7 or 1,000 years.

Gog and Magog are not symbols of Russia, Muslims, Iraq or African nations. This is the stuff of Jack Van Impe and other fanciful unbiblical prognosticators. No one who has done their homework in the bible would make such claims. Gog and Magog is a symbol of all the gentiles or nations of the world who assault the camp of saints. ...which is the Church all over the world (four quarters), not national Israel! It is the exact same nations of the world that God tells us WHY Satan was bound in the first place, so they would not be deceived (be saved). At the time of the end, however, Satan is loosed and those same nations that were prevented from being deceived, are then deceived. God is NOT talking about political nations. They were NOT prevented from destroying the political congregation of Israel, but the Church that was at Satan's binding, the Israel of God! Thus, being loosed, Satan proceeds to do what he was bound from doing for the millennial reign of the Kingdom on earth. It has nothing to do with political nations whether Israel or Russia, and it has nothing to do with physical weapons of warfare, famine or world leaders like you have dreamed of!

Revelation 20:7-9
  • "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
  • And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
  • And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
When you discover how Satan was bound so he couldn't deceive the Nations/Gentiles, then you will discover how when he is loosed he does deceive the Nations/Gentiles that they assault the camp of the saints. And the "camp of the saints" is not the political nation of Israel, but God's congregation, the Church, which is the ONLY SAINTS on the New Testament side of the cross. Selah! All these ideas about Russia, Libya, Africans, Muslims, or even National Israel is the sensationalist rhetoric of those who have very little understanding of scripture, its interpretation (which belongs to God) or prophesy.

Selah!
 
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DavidPT

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Ezekiel 38:2-4
[2] Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
[3] And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
[4] And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

Revelation 20:7-9

[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20 are talking about the SAME SPIRITUAL WAR. It is not a physical war against national Israel in the Middle East like you believe. There will not be two wars separated by 7 or 1,000 years.

Gog and Magog are not symbols of Russia, Muslims, Iraq or African nations. This is the stuff of Jack Van Impe and other fanciful unbiblical prognosticators. No one who has done their homework in the bible would make such claims. Gog and Magog is a symbol of all the gentiles or nations of the world who assault the camp of saints. ...which is the Church all over the world (four quarters), not national Israel! It is the exact same nations of the world that God tells us WHY Satan was bound in the first place, so they would not be deceived (be saved). At the time of the end, however, Satan is loosed and those same nations that were prevented from being deceived, are then deceived. God is NOT talking about political nations. They were NOT prevented from destroying the political congregation of Israel, but the Church that was at Satan's binding, the Israel of God! Thus, being loosed, Satan proceeds to do what he was bound from doing for the millennial reign of the Kingdom on earth. It has nothing to do with political nations whether Israel or Russia, and it has nothing to do with physical weapons of warfare, famine or world leaders like you have dreamed of!

Revelation 20:7-9
  • "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
  • And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
  • And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
When you discover how Satan was bound so he couldn't deceive the Nations/Gentiles, then you will discover how when he is loosed he does deceive the Nations/Gentiles that they assault the camp of the saints. And the "camp of the saints" is not the political nation of Israel, but God's congregation, the Church, which is the ONLY SAINTS on the New Testament side of the cross. Selah! All these ideas about Russia, Libya, Africans, Muslims, or even National Israel is the sensationalist rhetoric of those who have very little understanding of scripture, its interpretation (which belongs to God) or prophesy.

Selah!


How do you fit the following parts into this strange interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 that you have somehow convinced yourself is right?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.


Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


Ezekiel 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

If the above is not meaning literally in any way, what is the point in mentioning 7 months, 7 years? What would that have to do with alleged non literal events? And what about the parts having to do with the house of Israel? How can the house of Israel possibly be meaning the NT church in these contexts?
 
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TribulationSigns

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What I do know is this. I know what one of them doesn't represent, that being the rider on the white horse. I know that doesn't represent Christ in that particular context.

That is too bad because you lack spiritual discernment and understanding as shown below:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Usually via wars the idea is to go forth conquering, and to conquer. Even if a literal war is not meant here, the idea is still the same as if it were a literal war.

Let read the Scriptures with "make war" and find out what God actually talks about:

Revelation 11:7-8
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


The Two Witnesses are a body of believers with the power to preach Gospel. The beast is a body of carnal men with a spirit of Antichrist. They will come against believers and make war with them. How? With guns and missiles? Or their false doctrine that can overcome and silence the truthful testimony that God uses them as a judgment upon His unfaithful congregation?

Revelation 12:17
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The dragon does not make war with woman's offsprings, the Christians. The literal guns and missiles may harm them, but these does not stop their testimony. The false doctrines are more deadlier.

Revelation 13:4-5
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Many[5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

How will the dragon empower the beast (body of carnal men) with? Guns or false doctrines that deceive many to follow or wonder after him? Do you notice that the weaspon comes from his mouth? That is where the power is!

I wonder how many saints die at the hands of the enemy once verse 11 above begins being fulfilled? None would be my guess.

Of course! Revelation 19:11 is talking about the Second Coming where the dead in Christ will come with Him and those who are alive and remain on earth will be raptured to meet with Him in the air. Of course, no Saints will die on that day!

I wonder how many saints die at the hands of the enemy once Revelation 6:2 begins being fulfilled? Numerous saints would be my guess.

Of course, tribulation is promised for His Saints.

Luke 6:22
  • "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
Since the Cross, billions of the Saints from Old and New Testament who have died one way or other, but their souls immediately went up to be with Christ until the Second Coming. White the rest of the died, the unsaved, will remain in the grave until Judgment Day.

Revelation 20:4-6
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I would then think, in regards to Christ, going forth conquering, and to conquer, that is fulfilled as of Revelation 19:11. Revelation 6:2 is meaning before the time of Revelation 19:11.

You are confused, dude.

until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). This is meaning once these 4 horsemen begin fulfilling what is prophesied of them.

No, The "fellowservants" are the Elects who will see their testimony being silenced by carnal men in the congregation that become spiritually desolate: They will be killed exactly what Christ said:

Revelation 11:7-8
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Do you even know why their testimony ends? And how they will be overcome and being killed? And why are their dead bodies in the street of the great city which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom (abominations) and Egypt (bondage)? Think.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

It's not even debatable as to whom the above is meaning. Not only does Revelation 19 also have a rider on a white horse, this rider is wearing many crowns, where the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is said to only be wearing one crown.

Like I said, you lack spiritual understanding.

Christ indeed was given a crown, when He ascended to the throne to rule. Likewise, He does now have many crowns. Many crowns because He has triumphed over the nations and is king of kings and Lord of Lords. Where is the mystery? Indeed what did the four living creatures do and say of Christ? That He had redeemed them by His blood, that he was worthy, and they did give their crowns to Him. Didn't you really read the Scripture?

Revelation 4:10-11
  • "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
  • Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
Here are your many crowns!!! For example, we surrender our crowns to Christ! This is how He got many crowns! See?? It does NOT mean Christ was not given a crown, rather it symbolizes Christ as our King of kings and Lord of lords, that all nations and tongues and creeds surrender all authority and worship him. This has nothing whatsoever to do with negating the rider in Revelation 6:2 from being Christ like you attempted to do!

Try to study Scripture a little bit and think, won't ya?
 
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DavidPT

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Erdogan's Vision: Uniting an 'Army of Islam' to Destroy Israel in 10 Days
The Gog n Magog war of Ezekiel 38 will happen just be4 antichrist appearance in Israel as the "Messiah" which will begin the 70th week of Daniel,which is the final week/7 years Grief Tribulation as it will take 7 years for Israel to burn Gog's weapons after their defeat.
Eze 39:9... and they shall burn them with fire seven years.

We are currently watching how Israel is pushed by nations to accept the Two States Solutions and share Jerusalem with P.A.
Nobody can make the deal as it will be the antichrist's role.
Antichrist will make the 7 Years Peace Covenant between Israel and Arab enemies, then allowing the Temple rebuilt/worship and sacrifice, this end with the Abomination of Desolation at 3.5 years of tribulation.

The Temple will be allowed to be rebuilt after this war of Gog and Magog where the Arab nations as threats to Israel's existence will learn a massive defeat and then let the Temple be rebuilt besides the mosque as the symbol of 'peace'.
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:

The court is where the mosque now stands.

and Jerusalem will probably be made an Int'l city of 'Peace' by UN to avoid disputes over it
(Rev 11:2...and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months)

A new leader may rise from turmoil in the US, Russia and China (or from wars between them) as part of the 10 horns to give authority to Antichrist via the U.N. so he will have no rivals and allow him to become a one-world 'Peace Leader' (dictator)
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet begun to rule, but who will be given authority to rule as kings for one hour with the beast"

The Jews' Messiah might actually be a different person than antichrist, he can play the role of the False Prophet spoken of in Revelation,and he will be the executioner (2nd beast of Rev. 13) for those who resist to worship the beast and rcv its mark.

Antichrist will recover from a deadly wound which could be an assasination attempt against his effort to make Jerusalem an int'l city.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Antichrist cannot make the 7 years peace covenant before the 1st seal is opened where he will be empowered to make peace.
Dan 8:25....and by peace shall destroy many..(conquering the world by peace)
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Because antichrist is restrained now until the Holy Spirit is removed with the church
2 Thes 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the One who now holds it back will continue to do so till He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival.


Revelation 19 gives us the timing of some of these events in Ezekiel 39.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Compare with----

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.


The following is the fulfillment of the above in both accounts.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


The following is meaning after all of the above has been fulfilled.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.


And since Revelation 19 tells us the timing of these things is the 2nd coming, Ezekiel 39:9-16 above is meaning after the 2nd coming. This war is then after the great trib, apparently.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


This is the war I think it's ultimately referring to, what I have underlined above.
 
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TribulationSigns

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If the above is not meaning literally in any way, what is the point in mentioning 7 months, 7 years? What would that have to do with alleged non literal events? And what about the parts having to do with the house of Israel? How can the house of Israel possibly be meaning the NT church in these contexts?

Do you ever wonder what the number 7 signifies in Scripture?

I will give you an example about the 7 heads of the beast:

Revelation 17:7
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9-11
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
[10] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Therefore, the 7 heads represent the completeness of Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time. God was not talking about 7 literal heads, 7 literal nations, 7 literal mountains, 7 literal kings. Selah!

Likewise with 7 months and 7 years in Ezekiel 39.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you ever wonder what the number 7 signifies in Scripture?

I will give you an example about the 7 heads of the beast:

Revelation 17:7
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9-11
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
[10] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Therefore, the 7 heads represent the completeness of Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time. God was not talking about 7 literal heads, 7 literal nations, 7 literal mountains, 7 literal kings. Selah!

Likewise with 7 months and 7 years in Ezekiel 39.


The way I'm looking at it though, the fact Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19 seems to connect with each other, there is perhaps a spiritual application here and a literal application here as well. So that means you might not be entirely incorrect about some of these things. I just don't know, but regardless of that, I do like your thinking on some of these things. As complex as God is, He can easily be doing numerous things at the same time with the same events, that are written one way in the OT and in another way in the NT. When I indicated your interpretation of Ezekiel 39 was strange, what I mainly meant by that is how you seem to ignore certain things in the text which can't be taken anyway but literal. Such as burying the dead for 7 months. Even though you tried to show with this post what it might mean instead, I just don't see it working in this case.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Such as burying the dead for 7 months. Even though you tried to show with this post what it might mean instead, I just don't see it working in this case.

Ezekiel 39:11-16
[11] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
[12] And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
[13] Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
[14] And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
[15] And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
[16] And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

Tell me who is Gog? Why will a grave for him found in Israel?Who are the passengers on the east of sea? What will stop the noses of the passengers? Who is Gog's multitude? What do seven months signify? Why will ALL people of the land bury them? Why do they search after seven months? why is it important to bury the man's bone after Second Coming? What does the cleanse of the land actually meant?

I am curious to see what you understand the Lord actually talked about.
 
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If you want to compare scripture with scripture, then let's take another look at the verse in Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:2
  • "And I saw, and behold a White Horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The rider is NOT named. The only thing we have to identify him is what he is carrying - A bow. Is Jesus ever depicted in scripture as carrying a bow? I'll save you some time - Nowhere in scripture is Jesus ever depicted carrying a bow. Is anyone else ever depicted in scripture as carrying a bow? Yes, one person is - Nimrod, the founder of the city of Babylon, is depicted as carrying a bow.

The Book of Revelation is actually quite easy to unravel. It is written using imagery from the Old Testament. All you have to do is take the imagery from Revelation, find it in the Old Testament, and that unlocks its meaning in Revelation.
 
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