DavidPT

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Note the "noun" ἐκεῖ/ekei, "there" follows and modifies "furnace of fire." The wailing and gnashing of teeth happens in the "furnace of fire." But I can't find where Jesus said the wailing and gnashing would end.


If in this age someone were being tormented then eventually dying because of it, would that really require someone having to tell you that their torment has ended once they have physically died, in order for you to accept it? If the body and soul eventually dies in the LOF, shouldn't that mean any wailing and gnashing would end as well? Why would Jesus need to tell us it has ended in order for you to accept that there is an end to it eventually?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Note the "noun" ἐκεῖ/ekei, "there" follows and modifies "furnace of fire."
How many semesters of grammar do you have? "There" is NOT a noun. It is an adverb. Kids learn this in Elementary school. And it doesn't even follow or modify "furnace of fire". It doesn't say, "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth there," it says, "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." The independent clause that contains "furnace of fire" is not the same independent clause that contains "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Therefore they can't modify each other. This is elementary.

But I can't find where Jesus said the wailing and gnashing would end.
And I can't find a place where He says it won't end. In every instance when any human since the beginning of time ever wailed and gnashed their teeth, they eventually stopped doing so. It would be brutally irresponsible to assume that this particular instance would be unending without an extremely good reason.

The argument that this verse somehow, magically means that the wailing and gnashing of teeth will happen specifically inside the lake, and that it will last for all eternity is not even remotely sound argument. It is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Just because someone starts to wail and gash their teeth does NOT mean they will never stop doing so. This is just common sense. Everyone who has ever wailed eventually stopped wailing. The statement that someone started wailing in no way, shape or form implies that the wailing will continue for all eternity.

By looking at the original Greek to refine the verse from subsequent additions like, "where there will be", it becomes extremely clear that the text does NOT acutely describe where and for how long the gnashing will take place. It CANNOT be used as proof for anything other than the attitude of those being cast into the lake of fire.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Here is how Luke relates this event. No destruction.
Luke 12:4-5
(4) And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
(5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
OK? So Luke didn't record "destroy both body and soul" like Matthew did. Does that mean that Matthew was lying? Is his account no longer the inerrant Word of God?

It sounds like you are attacking the accuracy of scripture itself to argue your case.
 
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Der Alte

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How many semesters of grammar do you have? "There" is NOT a noun. It is an adverb. Kids learn this in Elementary school. And it doesn't even follow or modify "furnace of fire". It doesn't say, "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth there," it says, "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." The independent clause that contains "furnace of fire" is not the same independent clause that contains "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Therefore they can't modify each other. This is elementary.
You are correct in Greek it is an adverb. I checked an English grammar. The adverb ekei refers to a place either near or distant. No other choices. What is the only place referred to in Mt 12:42?
ἐκεῖ adv. of place (Aeschyl.+)
in ref. to a position in the immediate vicinity, there, in that place (the static aspect) Mt 2:13, 15; 5:24; 8:12; 12:45 al. Somet. more definitely ἐκεῖ πρὸς τῷ ὄρει Mk 5:11. W. the art. οἱ ἐκεῖ those who were there (X., Hell. 1, 6, 4; Celsus 2, 43; PRyl 239, 9 [III A.D.] ἐπίμινον τοῖς ἐκεῖ; Jos., Ant. 1, 243; 9, 114) Mt 26:71. τὰ δὲ ἐκεῖ θαυμάσσια the marvelous things there (in heaven) AcPl Ha 2, 23 (cp. Just., A I, 29, 2 οἱ ἐκεῖ ἰατροί; 62, 3 al.). Corresp. to the relatives οὗ, ὅπου … ἐκεῖ where … there (Epict. 4, 4, 15; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 32) Mt 6:21; 18:20; Mk 6:10; Lk 12:34. Pleonastic after ὅπου (B-D-F §297; cp. Gen 13:4; Ex 20:24) Mk 6:55 v.l.; Rv 12:6, 14.—ISm 8:2.
in ref. to a position relatively distant, there, to that place (the directional aspect)=ἐκεῖσε 1 (since Hdt. 1, 209; Thu. 3, 71, 2; Epict. 1, 27, 18; PMeyer 20, 46 ἐκεῖ πέμπω τ. ἐπιστολάς; PFlor 125, 7; 133, 9; Gen 19:22; 2 Km 2:2; Tob 7:16 al.; Jos., Ant. 18, 327; 20, 212; Just., D. 92, 2 εἰσελθεῖν ἐκεῖ) ἐκεῖ ἀπέρχεσθαι go there (thither) Mt 2:22; cp. 26:36. βάλλειν Lk 21:2. ἔρχεσθαι (Hdt. 1, 121; Jos., Ant. 6, 83) J 18:3. προπέμπεσθαι Ro 15:24. συνάγεσθαι Mt 24:28; J 18:2. συντρέχειν Mk 6:33. ὑπάγειν J 11:8; ἀποφέρειν AcPt Ox 849 verso, 10. μετάβα ἔνθεν ἐκεῖ move from here to there Mt 17:20.—Hv 3, 1, 3.—DELG. M-M. S. entry κἀκεῖ 1 and ὧδε 1.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 301). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
And I can't find a place where He says it won't end. In every instance when any human since the beginning of time ever wailed and gnashed their teeth, they eventually stopped doing so. It would be brutally irresponsible to assume that this particular instance would be unending without an extremely good reason.
The argument that this verse somehow, magically means that the wailing and gnashing of teeth will happen specifically inside the lake, and that it will last for all eternity is not even remotely sound argument. It is nothing more than wishful thinking.
Just because someone starts to wail and gash their teeth does NOT mean they will never stop doing so. This is just common sense. Everyone who has ever wailed eventually stopped wailing. The statement that someone started wailing in no way, shape or form implies that the wailing will continue for all eternity.
By looking at the original Greek to refine the verse from subsequent additions like, "where there will be", it becomes extremely clear that the text does NOT acutely describe where and for how long the gnashing will take place. It CANNOT be used as proof for anything other than the attitude of those being cast into the lake of fire
I see a lot of speculation but no, zero, none evidence.
 
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Der Alte

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OK? So Luke didn't record "destroy both body and soul" like Matthew did. Does that mean that Matthew was lying? Is his account no longer the inerrant Word of God?
It sounds like you are attacking the accuracy of scripture itself to argue your case
.
I prefer evidence over speculation. The Greek word apollumi, translated "destroy" does not necessarily mean to annihilate.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.


…..(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).

to cause or experience destruction
ⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press

 
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Der Alte

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If in this age someone were being tormented then eventually dying because of it, would that really require someone having to tell you that their torment has ended once they have physically died, in order for you to accept it? If the body and soul eventually dies in the LOF, shouldn't that mean any wailing and gnashing would end as well? Why would Jesus need to tell us it has ended in order for you to accept that there is an end to it eventually?
Where in Matthew 13:42 does it say anything about death?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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No other choices. What is the only place referred to in Mt 12:42?
If I were to say, "I am going to send my kid to school; there will be whining and stomping of feet," do I mean that the kid will whine and stomp feet while at the school, do I mean the kid will whine and stomp feet before arriving at the school, or does the statement not specify exactly when the whining and stomping of feet take place?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
This is interesting. The word used in Matthew 10:28 is actually ἀπολέσαι (apolesai), and not ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi). I think they are different conjugations of the same infinitive, or perhaps one is the infinitive.

Apolesai is used 8 times, and the following 2 occurrences give us a very clear idea of what it actually means:

Matthew 2:13 - "When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill (apolesai) him.”

Did Herod want to kill baby Jesus spiritually, or did he want to end his life?

Luke 19:47 - "Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him."

Did the priests want to kill Jesus spiritually?

Now of course there are uses of appolumi that don't mean literal, physical death, but there are also plenty that do.

So granted, it's not a concrete point, but it does seem to paint a pretty clear picture of death.
 
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Oseas

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[QUOTE Jordan Henshaw, post #529]

jovanovic said:
The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Jordan Henshaw: This is not talking about humans.
Why not? Jovanovic referred itself to Revelation 20:v.7-10. Finishing this millennium with the establishment of the Kingdom of God here on Earth, in whose millennium we are already living, there will be again a battle against Satan. Satan will go out to deceive the peoples, the nations, to gather them (the nations) together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they (the nations) went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about and the beloved city (the Kingdom of God): and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (them all). And the Devil that deceived them (the nations) was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the Beast and the False Prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, a
t the end of this millennium in which we have just entered, with the establishment of the Kingdom of God here on earth, the heaven of heaven will be established forever throughout all eternity. All will be finished with the Great White Throne Judgment, which will be established AFTER the end of tis last battle against Satan. Then, the dead, small and great, will stand before God; and the books will be opened: one is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea will give up the dead which are in it; and death and hell will delivere up the dead which are in them: and they will be judged, EVERY MAN (Yea, EVERY MAN) according to their works.
And death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Prov. 15:v.11 - Hell and perdition are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?


jovanovic said:
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;


Jordan Henshaw: I wonder what eternal fire is. Is it fire that literally burns forever, or is it fire whose effects are eternal?

Do not you know what eternal fire is? It's impressive. The Most High God and Almighty is Spirit. The ETERNAL Spirit of God is a devouring or a consuming fire. This explains the why this fire is Eternal. Hell and perdition are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

jovanovic said:
Who among us can live with continual burning?”

Jordan Henshaw: No one can. Duh.
Why not? You are contradicting God, the devourting fire. Read the Bible and you will see you are wrong. Isaiah 33:14: Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? (The everlasting Spirit of God is a devouring fire) who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
God Himself,
the own devouring fire, responds: Verses 15-17:
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
 
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ClementofA

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It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Oseas

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Why would god raise the dead to kill them again? How does that make sense? Nah, god raises the dead to send them to punishment, that punishment is torture in hell. if hell is death, then why dont he just let the dead rest? no need to wake up the dead to make them dead again.

JESUS went and preached unto the spirits in prison to them which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. So, they had a second chance to be saved. But from now on and for ever there will be chance no more.

Why do the Scriptures peremptorily affirm eternal perdition and punishment in the fire of hell for all who have not been saved, whose names have not been and are not inscribed in the book of life? Yea, why will multitudes and multitudes be cast into hell fire forever? Yes, forever, for all eternity? The answer is: It because there is NO MORE SACRIFICE THAT GOD CAN OFFER FOR THE SALVATION OF HUMANITY. THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS WAS THE LAST, EVIDENTLY. Did you understand that?
 
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Oseas

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[QUOTE DavidPT, post #539]
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What does the text above say? Does it say God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? Or does it say God is able to never destroy both soul and body in hell? Keeping in mind, according to Daniel 2:44, it is that which can never be destroyed being that which shall exist forever. I would then think the same logic in Daniel 2:44 applies to Matthew 10:28 as well. And since the latter indicates something is destroyed, it therefore can't mean the same thing as something that is never destroyed.[/QUOTE]

You asked me:
>>>What does the text above say? Does it say God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? Or does it say God is able to never destroy both soul and body in hell?<<<

As a Christian, if you really are, it is impressive that you contradict even the Lord JESUS Christ.

JESUS said :
1) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul ... :
(Yea, men are able to kill only the body of their fellow men, but not the soul, as said JESUS).

2) ... but rather fear Him
(God Almighty) which is able to destroy both soul and body IN HELL. (You contradict JESUS with your deceived words, he will not forgive you of this imprudence in this Day of Judgment.)

You commentted: >>>
Keeping in mind, according to Daniel 2:44, it is that which can never be destroyed being that which shall exist forever. I would then think the same logic in Daniel 2:44 applies to Matthew 10:28 as well. And since the latter indicates something is destroyed, it therefore can't mean the same thing as something that is never destroyed.<<<

What is not destroyed according Daniel 2:44 is the Kingdom of God, as is written: in the days of these kings
shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: this kingdom (Kingdom of God) will not be left to other people, but will break in pieces and consume all the kingdoms, and it will stand for ever. What is written in this verse of Daniel, has nothing to do with Matthew 10:28. You are twisting the Word of God.

Be careful because we have entered in the seventh and last millennium or last Day, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ.
 
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DavidPT

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[QUOTE DavidPT, post #539]
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What does the text above say? Does it say God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? Or does it say God is able to never destroy both soul and body in hell? Keeping in mind, according to Daniel 2:44, it is that which can never be destroyed being that which shall exist forever. I would then think the same logic in Daniel 2:44 applies to Matthew 10:28 as well. And since the latter indicates something is destroyed, it therefore can't mean the same thing as something that is never destroyed.




What exactly are you not grasping about the point I have been trying to make with this? And what exactly do you mean by this----"As a Christian, if you really are"----?

Once again, I'm only using Daniel 2:44 to make a point about something. That verse has no relevance to the topic of this thread otherwise. I reason things outside of the box oftentimes. This is simply an example of one of those times.
 
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Der Alte

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If I were to say, "I am going to send my kid to school; there will be whining and stomping of feet," do I mean that the kid will whine and stomp feet while at the school, do I mean the kid will whine and stomp feet before arriving at the school, or does the statement not specify exactly when the whining and stomping of feet take place?
Irrelevant, anybody can concoct a present day "example" which they think proves almost anything they want it to. The question here is not how can a present day somebody who has been indoctrinated in a particular belief system for umpteen years understand a particular verse. But how did the first century Jews Jesus was speaking to understand it?
.....Some of their beliefs were "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"Judith xvi. 17. "The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11. Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna.
 
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Der Alte

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This is interesting. The word used in Matthew 10:28 is actually ἀπολέσαι (apolesai), and not ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi). I think they are different conjugations of the same infinitive, or perhaps one is the infinitive.
Apolesai is used 8 times, and the following 2 occurrences give us a very clear idea of what it actually means:
Matthew 2:13 - "When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill (apolesai) him.”
Did Herod want to kill baby Jesus spiritually, or did he want to end his life?
Luke 19:47 - "Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him."
Did the priests want to kill Jesus spiritually?
Now of course there are uses of appolumi that don't mean literal, physical death, but there are also plenty that do.
So granted, it's not a concrete point, but it does seem to paint a pretty clear picture of death.
Correct, "die" not destruction, annihilation to cause to cease to exist etc. Did you even bother reading my post I said this in the introductory paragraph?
 
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Der Alte

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Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.
Your argument fails because it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence, "something must/will happen because the Bible doesn't say it will not." So please tell me where all those groups of sinners are going to spend eternity after they are made righteous, according to you, because they can't inherit the kingdom of God?.
...Link to unqualified website omitted...
 
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Irrelevant, anybody can concoct a present day "example" which they think proves almost anything they want it to.
Can you come up with an example of when the "there" in "There will be X" refers directly to a time or place?

These are simple rules of logic. "There will be X" NEVER tells you exactly when or where X occurs. It just doesn't. I'm sorry. I don't know how else to put it. If God said in the garden of Eden before the Fall, "I will soon be forced to send you away; you will have hard feelings," would that statement have told us exactly when, where, or for how long the hard feelings would have taken place?

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Correct, "die" not destruction, annihilation to cause to cease to exist etc. Did you even bother reading my post I said this in the introductory paragraph?
What exactly do you mean by "cease to exist"?

You're operating on the idea that the Annihilationism view is that God just waves a magic wand and all the unrighteous just vanish into thin air and their atoms just disappear. This couldn't be further from the truth. He will KILL them. Thy will DIE. People who get cast into lakes of burning sulfur DIE. They will become ashes under soles of the feet of the righteous. This is just common sense.

It is becoming painful to see how far you will venture from plain, extraordinarily simple, common-sense logic in order to prove that a loving God of justice would torture every single human who didn't love him for trillions and trillions of years with the most painful form of torture known to man.

The ONLY verse that strongly supports ECT is Revelation 20:10. All the others can EASILY be interpreted other ways if you simply OPEN YOUR MIND to simple logic.

Eternal destruction does not mean the person is forever in the process of being destroyed. It means they will be destroyed forever. You can't be forever in the process of being destroyed. That doesn't make any sense. Because then you would never actually be destroyed.

Eternal punishment does not necessarily mean the act of punishing lasts for eternity. It can just as easily mean the punishment ever ends; that it is never undone. This is common sense. But you REFUSE to accept that.

Eternal fire does not mean fire that will never go out. The bible is very clear on this. Sodom is no longer burning, despite having been burned by ETERNAL FIRE. Sodom is an example of those who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. Why is it called eternal fire? Because the work of the flame is NEVER undone. Sodom will never be rebuilt. It is still in ashes today. Everlasting shame. Eternal destruction. It's very simple and easy to understand.

When Jesus said "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," He did NOT give us any clear indication of exactly when, where, or for how long it would take place. That is extremely easy to see. This is not rocket science. That's just not what it says. He didn't say that. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 3. I'm sorry. It's not true. The statement, "They will be cast into a fiery furnace; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," is isn't, wasn't, and and never will be the same as saying, "They will be cast into the fiery furnace where they will weep and gnash their teeth forever." It's just not the same thing. I'm really sorry. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 3. I know you want it to be 3, but it's not.

The verse that talks about how it would be better if Judas had never been born does not say anything about him burning in hell forever. This is the same thing. It just doesn't say that. I'm sorry. 1 + 1 = 2. You can't add your own ideas to scripture. You can't take a verse that says, "It would be better for him if he had not been born," and make it say, "It would be better for him if he had never been born because now he will be tortured in hell forever." Because that is not what the text says. I'm very sorry.

The worm that God references in Isaiah is not an immortal worm that feasts on a endless supply of human flesh for all eternity while being burned by the lake of fire. That is just ridiculous. Isaiah was one of the most poetic writers of the Bible. The worm thing is imagery. He is saying that their worm dies not, and the smoke of their torment will rise forever. He is not saying that the worm literally will feast on flesh while being itself burned alive for all eternity, and that all the animals that will later dwell in said land are also completely fireproof ad won't mind the fact that their home is constantly burning, and that there are millions of humans being tortured there. He is clearly talking about eternal destruction. Death. Annihilation. Rotting corpses (oh, look - he actually mentions corpses in verse 3!). Loss of life. Eternal destruction. Everlasting shame and contempt.

He doesn't literally mean the sky will literally roll up like a scroll.

He doesn't literally mean that he has a physical sword that is somehow satisfied by heaven.

He doesn't literally mean that God has a sword that has the blood of millions of humans contained inside of it.

He doesn't literally mean that there will be an eternal plume of smoke.

He doesn't literally mean that there are immortal worms that will eat flesh for eternity.


This entire image in Isaiah 34 couldn't possibly paint a clearer picture of annihilation/death.


These verses are stand as the CORE support of ECT. But it just doesn't stand. Period. It is EXTREMELY weak. You can't use these verses to prove eternal conscious torment. You just can't.

1 + 1 = 2

Not 3.

I'm sorry.
 
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DavidPT

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Eternal punishment does not necessarily mean the act of punishing lasts for eternity. It can just as easily mean the punishment ever ends; that it is never undone. This is common sense. But you REFUSE to accept that.


In a sense, when someone is executed in this age, that, too, is eternal punishment, the fact once they are executed that can't be reversed ever, thus they can't become alive again in this present age after having been executed. Only meaning from the perspective of this side of life in this present age.
 
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Der Alte

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Can you come up with an example of when the "there" in "There will be X" refers directly to a time or place?
These are simple rules of logic. "There will be X" NEVER tells you exactly when or where X occurs. It just doesn't. I'm sorry. I don't know how else to put it. If God said in the garden of Eden before the Fall, "I will soon be forced to send you away; you will have hard feelings," would that statement have told us exactly when, where, or for how long the hard feelings would have taken place
?
Of course you don't know how to put it because you are trying to force a modern English idiom into 1st century Greek. It don't work.<period> See the definition I posted previously of the Greek word ἐκεῖ/ekei, i.e. "there." my post [#564] above. Unlike English ekei is never used as an interjection in Greek. For example in English we might say to someone "There is going to be trouble." Or we might comfort someone,"There, there," without reference to a specific place. But as I said that idiom does not exist in Greek. In Greek ekei always refers to a specific place.
Matthew 13:42
(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50
(50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And in support of my statement above here are the first 10 of 98 occurrences of ekei in the NT, excluding the wailing and gnashing verses. All refer to a specific place.
Matthew 2:13 Matthew 2:15 Matthew 2:22 Matthew 6:21 Matthew 12:45 Matthew 13:58 Matthew 14:23 Matthew 15:29 Matthew 17:20 Matthew 18:20

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What exactly do you mean by "cease to exist"?
You're operating on the idea that the Annihilationism view is that God just waves a magic wand and all the unrighteous just vanish into thin air and their atoms just disappear. This couldn't be further from the truth. He will KILL them. Thy will DIE
.
By annihilation I mean something more than physical “death.” If the “destruction””perishing” in the Bible means simply death why does God use a different word?
People who get cast into lakes of burning sulfur DIE. They will become ashes under soles of the feet of the righteous. This is just common sense.
It is becoming painful to see how far you will venture from plain, extraordinarily simple, common-sense logic in order to prove that a loving God of justice would torture every single human who didn't love him for trillions and trillions of years with the most painful form of torture known to man.
The ONLY verse that strongly supports ECT is Revelation 20:10. All the others can EASILY be interpreted other ways if you simply OPEN YOUR MIND to simple logic
.
Eternal destruction does not mean the person is forever in the process of being destroyed. It means they will be destroyed forever. You can't be forever in the process of being destroyed. That doesn't make any sense. Because then you would never actually be destroyed.
The term "everlasting destruction" is only used once in the NT 1Thess 1:9. Notice "everlasting destruction" is modified “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” Something/someone that is destroyed cannot “be” from the presence of anything or anyone.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​
Eternal punishment does not necessarily mean the act of punishing lasts for eternity. It can just as easily mean the punishment ever ends; that it is never undone. This is common sense. But you REFUSE to accept that.
Again trying to force modern day thinking onto 1st century Greek. The Sadducees of Jesus’ day did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died, old, young, children, infants, male, female, rich, poor and that it was final. Nobody ever came back from that. So what would eternal punishment mean to them?
.....Justin Martyr wrote in his Dialogue with Trypho a Jew “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’

Eternal fire does not mean fire that will never go out. The bible is very clear on this. Sodom is no longer burning, despite having been burned by ETERNAL FIRE. Sodom is an example of those who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. Why is it called eternal fire? Because the work of the flame is NEVER undone. Sodom will never be rebuilt. It is still in ashes today. Everlasting shame. Eternal destruction. It's very simple and easy to understand.
Still trying to force your modern reasoning onto 1st century Greek. Why isn’t every reference to fire in the Bible called “eternal fire.” Because, according to you, when something is burned up that’s eternal.
When Jesus said "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," He did NOT give us any clear indication of exactly when, where, or for how long it would take place. That is extremely easy to see. This is not rocket science. That's just not what it says. He didn't say that. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 3. I'm sorry. It's not true. The statement, "They will be cast into a fiery furnace; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," is isn't, wasn't, and and never will be the same as saying, "They will be cast into the fiery furnace where they will weep and gnash their teeth forever." It's just not the same thing. I'm really sorry. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 3. I know you want it to be 3, but it's not.
The verse that talks about how it would be better if Judas had never been born does not say anything about him burning in hell forever.
Twice Jesus mentions a punishment that is worse than death. In Matthew 18:6, Matthew 26:24. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
This is the same thing. It just doesn't say that. I'm sorry. 1 + 1 = 2. You can't add your own ideas to scripture. You can't take a verse that says, "It would be better for him if he had not been born," and make it say, "It would be better for him if he had never been born because now he will be tortured in hell forever." Because that is not what the text says. I'm very sorry.
The worm that God references in Isaiah is not an immortal worm that feasts on a endless supply of human flesh for all eternity while being burned by the lake of fire.
Among the Jews in Jesus’ time there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment they called it both sheol and gehinnom. They believed that,
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity.” Judith xvi. 17. The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
So when Jesus taught “hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” What do you think they understood? They believed that there was a literal hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
That is just ridiculous. Isaiah was one of the most poetic writers of the Bible. The worm thing is imagery. He is saying that their worm dies not, and the smoke of their torment will rise forever. He is not saying that the worm literally will feast on flesh while being itself burned alive for all eternity, and that all the animals that will later dwell in said land are also completely fireproof ad won't mind the fact that their home is constantly burning, and that there are millions of humans being tortured there. He is clearly talking about eternal destruction. Death. Annihilation. Rotting corpses (oh, look - he actually mentions corpses in verse 3!). Loss of life. Eternal destruction. Everlasting shame and contempt.
He doesn't literally mean the sky will literally roll up like a scroll.
He doesn't literally mean that he has a physical sword that is somehow satisfied by heaven.
He doesn't literally mean that God has a sword that has the blood of millions of humans contained inside of it.
He doesn't literally mean that there will be an eternal plume of smoke.
He doesn't literally mean that there are immortal worms that will eat flesh for eternity.
This entire image in Isaiah 34 couldn't possibly paint a clearer picture of annihilation/death.
These verses are stand as the CORE support of ECT. But it just doesn't stand. Period. It is EXTREMELY weak. You can't use these verses to prove eternal conscious torment. You just can't.
1 + 1 = 2 Not 3. I'm sorry.
See my response immediately above. Yes there are more than 200 different figures of speech in the Bible. But one or two figures of speech does not make everything figurative..
 
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In a sense, when someone is executed in this age, that, too, is eternal punishment, the fact once they are executed that can't be reversed ever, thus they can't become alive again in this present age after having been executed. Only meaning from the perspective of this side of life in this present age.
So is everybody who dies being punished eternally?
 
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