Christian Conjecture... Just Admit You Don't Know

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

I've been in the church a very long time, about 25 years plus a year in Bible college. A consistent theme I have seen both in my experience in the church and on this forum (some will say it's the same thing)... has been the consistent use of what is conjecture, to influence others.

So, why, for goodness sakes why??? I actually don't understand it's purpose. When we don't know something for certain, why can't you simply say "this is what I think it means, but I'm uncertain to it's actual definition, or what it means...". How hard is that?

Some examples:
What is the exact definition of lust in Matthew 5:28? Because I remember being taught vehemently it means sexual arousal... or does it?
LUST IS ADULTERY Mt. 5:28

What about women going topless, is it right or wrong? It seems there are countless people on this thread using Romans 14:13-23 in error... and selling their opinions as truth.
National Go Topless Day

What about 6 day creationism? What about the nature of communion? What about homosexuality? What about the doctrine of hell (see below)? Is masturbation a sin? Do soulties exist? I'm sure the examples would be endless...

My daughter recently asked me if I believe in hell, and so I asked her what she means by hell? We had an excellent discussion. I explained that Christians debate over what hell actually is, some say it's the complete separation of God, while others believe its a literal lake of fire, some believe it means complete non-existence. I encouraged her to read her Bible and form her own thoughts on what she believes God is saying.

An example of where opinions taught as fact was the entire basis for the 90's purity culture movement. A movement which sadly damaged many young women (and men).
The Negative Impact of Purity Culture

I'm just baffled why it's so hard for some Christians to allow others to form their own ideas as to what God is saying in Scripture, instead of telling them what they are to believe based on their own opinions. I think many people tell others what to do based on how they interpret the Bible because they believe they are doing more good than harm, however, I'd argue the opposite.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
I've been in the church a very long time, about 25 years plus a year in Bible college. A consistent theme I have seen both in my experience in the church and on this forum (some will say it's the same thing)... has been the consistent use of what is conjecture, to influence others.

So, why, for goodness sakes why??? I actually don't understand it's purpose. When we don't know something for certain, why can't you simply say "this is what I think it means, but I'm uncertain to it's actual definition, or what it means...". How hard is that?

Some examples:
What is the exact definition of lust in Matthew 5:28? Because I remember being taught vehemently it means sexual arousal... or does it?
LUST IS ADULTERY Mt. 5:28

What about women going topless, is it right or wrong? It seems there are countless people on this thread using Romans 14:13-23 in error... and selling their opinions as truth.
National Go Topless Day

What about 6 day creationism? What about the nature of communion? What about homosexuality? What about the doctrine of hell (see below)? Is masturbation a sin? Do soulties exist? I'm sure the examples would be endless...

My daughter recently asked me if I believe in hell, and so I asked her what she means by hell? We had an excellent discussion. I explained that Christians debate over what hell actually is, some say it's the complete separation of God, while others believe its a literal lake of fire, some believe it means complete non-existence. I encouraged her to read her Bible and form her own thoughts on what she believes God is saying.

An example of where opinions taught as fact was the entire basis for the 90's purity culture movement. A movement which sadly damaged many young women (and men).
The Negative Impact of Purity Culture

I'm just baffled why it's so hard for some Christians to allow others to form their own ideas as to what God is saying in Scripture, instead of telling them what they are to believe based on their own opinions. I think many people tell others what to do based on how they interpret the Bible because they believe they are doing more good than harm, however, I'd argue the opposite.

Hi Tetra,

These are all good points you've made to some extent, and I too get frustrated by Christians who seem to be too tightly wound to exacting conceptions about Christian Theology, many of which can't really be born out in any kind of demonstration in reality, or even offered as simply full bodied attempts to provide a "sense" of coherence.

However, I think we do well to discern that learning is best developed most of the time as an interdependent community objective rather than some isolated, completely private tête-à-tête with one's own self. There is a difference between: 1) Thinking FOR yourself, and 2) Thinking BY yourself. Unfortunately, a lot of problems it seems are caused when people, whether Christian or whatnot, opt for the second choice. Oh, the ravages of an individualist society.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Tree of Life · Mar 25, 2018

You, sir, are obsessed with sex.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

Tree of Life said:
You, sir, are obsessed with sex.

That's not in question. Lol What does that have to do with the post I made though?

Tree of Life · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
That's not in question. Lol What does that have to do with the post I made though?

In my estimation simply from what I've read from your posts, I think that your obsession with sex is clouding your judgment on many other areas - including this issue of what Christian teaching should be like.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

Tree of Life said:
In my estimation simply from what I've read from your posts, I think that your obsession with sex is clouding your judgment on many other areas - including this issue of what Christian teaching should be like.

I would argue this is off topic, but I'm always down for a challenge. First, I was joking... I'm hardly "obsessed" with sex, but I could see how most conservative Christians here would think that. Second, can you please elaborate on how my posts regarding sex have shown clouded judgement regarding Christian teaching?

I gave many examples above, including a conversation with my daughter. Are you arguing Christians should dogmatically teach beliefs regardless the level of certainty?

sfs · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
So, why, for goodness sakes why???

I don't know.

Tree of Life · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
I would argue this is off topic, but I'm always down for a challenge. First, I was joking... I'm hardly "obsessed" with sex, but I could see how most conservative Christians here would think that. Second, can you please elaborate on how my posts regarding sex have shown clouded judgement regarding Christian teaching?

Most of your posts have to do, in some way, with sex. Just an observation. Take it or leave it.

I gave many examples above, including a conversation with my daughter. Are you arguing Christians should dogmatically teach beliefs regardless the level of certainty?

Christians should not teach dogmatically about matters which are unclear. Teachers are certainly permitted to take positions on unclear issues, but not to insist that these positions be accepted by all.

But on clear issues, teachers should teach with the full authority of God. Matters concerning sexual ethics which you've mentioned are basically clear and should be taught with clarity, conviction, and authority.

mark kennedy · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
I've been in the church a very long time, about 25 years plus a year in Bible college. A consistent theme I have seen both in my experience in the church and on this forum (some will say it's the same thing)... has been the consistent use of what is conjecture, to influence others.

So, why, for goodness sakes why??? I actually don't understand it's purpose. When we don't know something for certain, why can't you simply say "this is what I think it means, but I'm uncertain to it's actual definition, or what it means...". How hard is that?

Some examples:
What is the exact definition of lust in Matthew 5:28? Because I remember being taught vehemently it means sexual arousal... or does it?
LUST IS ADULTERY Mt. 5:28

What about women going topless, is it right or wrong? It seems there are countless people on this thread using Romans 14:13-23 in error... and selling their opinions as truth.
National Go Topless Day

What about 6 day creationism? What about the nature of communion? What about homosexuality? What about the doctrine of hell (see below)? Is masturbation a sin? Do soulties exist? I'm sure the examples would be endless...

My daughter recently asked me if I believe in hell, and so I asked her what she means by hell? We had an excellent discussion. I explained that Christians debate over what hell actually is, some say it's the complete separation of God, while others believe its a literal lake of fire, some believe it means complete non-existence. I encouraged her to read her Bible and form her own thoughts on what she believes God is saying.

An example of where opinions taught as fact was the entire basis for the 90's purity culture movement. A movement which sadly damaged many young women (and men).
The Negative Impact of Purity Culture

I'm just baffled why it's so hard for some Christians to allow others to form their own ideas as to what God is saying in Scripture, instead of telling them what they are to believe based on their own opinions. I think many people tell others what to do based on how they interpret the Bible because they believe they are doing more good than harm, however, I'd argue the opposite.

I have some of the same problems just different issues, eschatology is the worst. Splashing a lot of verses all over the thread and you couldn't get a good exposition of the text with a Federal warrant and a shotgun. I studied Song of Solomon, thought I seen a pretty sweet and interesting narrative of two people getting married in Solomon's court, they sat at the king's table and Solomon wrote this wedding song in their honor. So I look into the commentaries and it's just this bizarre allegorizing, this means this and that means that. The part about her garden, which is a literal garden, Jewish and Christian scholars think are metaphors for sex, or some random mystical something or another.

I could do an exposition of the predictive prophecy in Revelations in short order, it's not that complicated. But everyone thinks you need dispensationalism, covenant theology and endless speculations about the rapture and overlapping judgments. I could give you a glance of what life was life in the early reign of Solomon, the groom may even have been a prince, which would have made the bride a princess. I'm not really importing anything into the text, that's really how it reads, if you have the patience to follow the narrative.

Oh yea and Creationism, there's a puzzling experiment in natural theology. The six day creation follows the narrative and is followed by a series of specific genealogies and direct references to times and dates. That's not the problem. All we know about the creation of the universe is that it was in the beginning, when creation week started was sometime after, maybe minutes maybe billions of years. So why are Creationists so obsessed with geology and cosmology? Try to get anyone on that topic of fossils or comparative genomics and trust me from personal experience, it's time wasted you will never get back.

There was this guy who proposed a possibility, him and another gentleman had a brief discussion of the possibility that the lake of fire could simply be the annihilation of the body and soul. I had never heard such a thing, but both were gentlemanly about it so I did an exposition of the requisite proof texts and all but one were consistent with complete annihilation. I've since tried to revisit the subject, which believe me is not an extensive study, the threads go on forever, endlessly, in circles.

I think the problem is people can complicate a chicken salad sandwich. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Most of your posts have to do, in some way, with sex. Just an observation. Take it or leave it.

Absolutely, how does that prove I'm "obsessed" with sex, or that my view on Christian teaching have been clouded? If you're going to make a claim, please provide evidence.

Tree of Life said:
Christians should not teach dogmatically about matters which are unclear. Teachers are certainly permitted to take positions on unclear issues, but not to insist that these positions be accepted by all.

You just said, my views on Christian teaching were clouded, and in this statement, proceeded to agree with my original post. This was the entire point of the post above.

Tree of Life said:
But on clear issues, teachers should teach with the full authority of God. Matters concerning sexual ethics which you've mentioned are basically clear and should be taught with clarity, conviction, and authority.

Okay, this respectfully is non-sense. Nothing has divided the church more than sexual ethics in recent history... and now you're saying the things which divides the church the most is "clear"??? The reason the church is so divided is not because it's so clear, rather because is so unclear... or do you need me to actually prove this. We can pick the sexual topic and create a thread for fun to see if you're right...

Tree of Life · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
Okay, this respectfully is non-sense. Nothing has divided the church more than sexual ethics in recent history... and now you're saying the things which divides the church the most is "clear"??? The reason the church is so divided is not because it's so clear, rather because is so unclear... or do you need me to actually prove this. We can pick the sexual topic and create a thread for fun to see if you're right...

The reason that people are divided over sexual ethics issues is because many of them do not accept Scripture and the clear teachings of Scripture. In other words, if two Christians who believe the Bible is God's word get together and interpret Scripture on sexual ethics issues, there won't be much disagreement. But if two people get together - one accepts Scripture as such and the other does not - then there will be much disagreement. No surprises there.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I have some of the same problems just different issues, eschatology is the worst. Splashing a lot of verses all over the thread and you couldn't get a good exposition of the text with a Federal warrant and a shotgun. I studied Song of Solomon, thought I seen a pretty sweet and interesting narrative of two people getting married in Solomon's court, they sat at the king's table and Solomon wrote this wedding song in their honor. So I look into the commentaries and it's just this bizarre allegorizing, this means this and that means that. The part about her garden, which is a literal garden, Jewish and Christian scholars think are metaphors for sex, or some random mystical something or another.

I could do an exposition of the predictive prophecy in Revelations in short order, it's not that complicated. But everyone thinks you need dispensationalism, covenant theology and endless speculations about the rapture and overlapping judgments. I could give you a glance of what life was life in the early reign of Solomon, the groom may even have been a prince, which would have made the bride a princess. I'm not really importing anything into the text, that's really how it reads, if you have the patience to follow the narrative.

Oh yea and Creationism, there's a puzzling experiment in natural theology. The six day creation follows the narrative and is followed by a series of specific genealogies and direct references to times and dates. That's not the problem. All we know about the creation of the universe is that it was in the beginning, when creation week started was sometime after, maybe minutes maybe billions of years. So why are Creationists so obsessed with geology and cosmology? Try to get anyone on that topic of fossils or comparative genomics and trust me from personal experience, it's time wasted you will never get back.

There was this guy who proposed a possibility, him and another gentleman had a brief discussion of the possibility that the lake of fire could simply be the annihilation of the body and soul. I had never heard such a thing, but both were gentlemanly about it so I did an exposition of the requisite proof texts and all but one were consistent with complete annihilation. I've since tried to revisit the subject, which believe me is not an extensive study, the threads go on forever, endlessly, in circles.

I think the problem is people can complicate a chicken salad sandwich. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Your post is quite accurate... I guess I'm just trying to figure out why this seems so rampant in Christendom?

sfs said:
I don't know.

To answer the above quote and this one...

I don't know why this is so common as I'm working out these thoughts here on the forum, but I'm wondering if it's related to confirmation bias where we have a preexisting belief, and then read into the Biblical text to "prove" our position.

Rajni · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
I've been in the church a very long time, about 25 years plus a year in Bible college. A consistent theme I have seen both in my experience in the church and on this forum (some will say it's the same thing)... has been the consistent use of what is conjecture, to influence others.

So, why, for goodness sakes why??? I actually don't understand it's purpose. When we don't know something for certain, why can't you simply say "this is what I think it means, but I'm uncertain to it's actual definition, or what it means...". How hard is that?

Some examples:
What is the exact definition of lust in Matthew 5:28? Because I remember being taught vehemently it means sexual arousal... or does it?
LUST IS ADULTERY Mt. 5:28

What about women going topless, is it right or wrong? It seems there are countless people on this thread using Romans 14:13-23 in error... and selling their opinions as truth.
National Go Topless Day

What about 6 day creationism? What about the nature of communion? What about homosexuality? What about the doctrine of hell (see below)? Is masturbation a sin? Do soulties exist? I'm sure the examples would be endless...

My daughter recently asked me if I believe in hell, and so I asked her what she means by hell? We had an excellent discussion. I explained that Christians debate over what hell actually is, some say it's the complete separation of God, while others believe its a literal lake of fire, some believe it means complete non-existence. I encouraged her to read her Bible and form her own thoughts on what she believes God is saying.

An example of where opinions taught as fact was the entire basis for the 90's purity culture movement. A movement which sadly damaged many young women (and men).
The Negative Impact of Purity Culture

I'm just baffled why it's so hard for some Christians to allow others to form their own ideas as to what God is saying in Scripture, instead of telling them what they are to believe based on their own opinions. I think many people tell others what to do based on how they interpret the Bible because they believe they are doing more good than harm, however, I'd argue the opposite.

I have to agree that with something that requires faith to
begin with, to present anything under that faith-based
umbrella as cold hard fact is rather pointless.

Dave-W · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
I'm just baffled why it's so hard for some Christians to allow others to form their own ideas as to what God is saying in Scripture, instead of telling them what they are to believe based on their own opinions. I think many people tell others what to do based on how they interpret the Bible because they believe they are doing more good than harm, however, I'd argue the opposite.

The Greek influenced western mind set focuses on answers rather than questions. We feel lost if we don't have the exact answer, so we tend to try to piece together something and present it as the truth, even if is has little or no support.

But the bible was not written from a western mind set that was obsessed with answers. The eastern Jewish mindset values questions over answers, and the bible was written from that perspective.

I have had to tell myself and others over and over again that not knowing is ok. For somethings, there may never be a hard and fast answer.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

Tree of Life said:
The reason that people are divided over sexual ethics issues is because many of them do not accept Scripture and the clear teachings of Scripture. In other words, if two Christians who believe the Bible is God's word get together and interpret Scripture on sexual ethics issues, there won't be much disagreement. But if two people get together - one accepts Scripture as such and the other does not - then there will be much disagreement. No surprises there.

So you're saying, "accepting" Scripture is accepting your interpretation of Scripture? Anyone who disagrees with you would therefore not be "accepting" Scripture?

Also, you're not going to provide evidence to your claim earlier regarding my "clouded" views on Christian teaching? I'll assume you can't and disregard your argument then.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

2PhiloVoid said:
Hi Tetra,

These are all good points you've made to some extent, and I too get frustrated by Christians who seem to be too tightly wound to exacting conceptions about Christian Theology, many of which can't really be born out in any kind of demonstration in reality, or even offered as simply full bodied attempts to provide a "sense" of coherence.

However, I think we do well to discern that learning is best developed most of the time as an interdependent community objective rather than some isolated, completely private tête-à-tête with one's own self. There is a difference between: 1) Thinking FOR yourself, and 2) Thinking BY yourself. Unfortunately, a lot of problems it seems are caused when people, whether Christian or whatnot, opt for the second choice. Oh, the ravages of an individualist society.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Hey brother!

I agree with you entirely.

I don't think Christians should work through our thoughts by ourselves. Most people (including myself) can't think alone or work through issues alone.

Tree of Life · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
So you're saying, "accepting" Scripture is accepting your interpretation of Scripture? Anyone who disagrees with you would therefore not be "accepting" Scripture?

No. We can do a little better than that. The Bible is basically clear. It sounds humble, and is certainly post-modern, to suggest that all we have is Scripture and equally plausible interpretations of Scripture. But at the end of the day we cannot know for certain what Scripture actually says. I reject this notion. Scripture is clear and there are clear conclusions we can draw from Scripture that any honest reader would arrive at.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

Tree of Life said:
No. We can do a little better than that. The Bible is basically clear. It sounds humble, and is certainly post-modern, to suggest that all we have is Scripture and equally plausible interpretations of Scripture.

Ummm... when did I argue all interpretations of Scripture "equally plausible"???

That's non-sense.

I'm arguing that your interpretation may or may not be plausible. You seem to be suggesting otherwise by your post above.

Tetra · Mar 25, 2018

Dave-W said:
The Greek influenced western mind set focuses on answers rather than questions. We feel lost if we don't have the exact answer, so we tend to try to piece together something and present it as the truth, even if is has little or no support.

But the bible was not written from a western mind set that was obsessed with answers. The eastern Jewish mindset values questions over answers, and the bible was written from that perspective.

I have had to tell myself and others over and over again that not knowing is ok. For somethings, there may never be a hard and fast answer.

Excellent response Dave and I think you're onto something regarding Greek thought influence. People hate admitting they're wrong or may not in fact have the answers.

Just so I don't fall victim to the very things I'm complaining about. I could also in fact be wrong, and hope I've never given the impression otherwise.

mark kennedy · Mar 25, 2018

Tetra said:
Your post is quite accurate... I guess I'm just trying to figure out why this seems so rampant in Christendom?

Got a twinge of a theory about that, religion is from the inside out, your core convictions are what drives the whole thing. So you have people coming at it from so many angles it just gets confused. You also get a lot of people incapable of basic insight, no patience for an actual exposition so they just speculate wildly. There is also the menace of unbelievers who are simply trifling with things they know nothing and care nothing about.

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