The timing of Pesach and the crucifixion--one last time

Open Heart · Mar 24, 2018

I will be the first to say that there are differing opinions about this. I tend to stay out of this debate until it actually gets closer to Pesach. So here I am.

First of all, according to Exodus 12:18, The feast of unleavened bread is supposed to start on Nisan 14. These days we start it on the 15. Why the discrepancy? I believe it is because the 14 was the day of preparation, when the lamb was sacrificed (a peace offering?). The Seder was held therefore on the evening of Nisan 15. Today, since there is no corban sacrifice, the first day we celebrate is Nisan 15 by default.

This means that the day of preparation talked about in the synoptic gospels was the daytime of Nisan 14.

The Last Supper was held on the evening of Nisan 15. It leaves plenty of time for the Garden of Gethsemane in the night, as well as the arrest and trial by the Sanhedrin.

In the morning of the 15, Yeshua would have gone before Pilate and Herod, including the scourging. In the afternoon for three hours he would have been crucified. This was still Passover remember, the day after the day of preparation.

Pilate is beseeched to give the body so that it can be buried before the Sabbath. John also calls the day, "the day of preparation" meaning preparation for the Sabbath. Jesus therefore dies and is buried before sundown when Sabbath begins.

That's day one.
The Sabbath is day two
The eight day is day three.

He rises sometime either during the night or early in the morning on the eighth day.

Hank77 · Mar 24, 2018

Are you saying that He wasn't crucified on the same day that the sacrificial lambs were slain?

Open Heart · Mar 24, 2018

Hank77 said:
Are you saying that He wasn't crucified on the same day that the sacrificial lambs were slain?

Right. The lambs were slain the afternoon before the night of the last supper is what I'm guessing.

drjean · Mar 24, 2018

It is my understanding, as told by Messianic Jews in the past, that Yeshua was not only slain on the same day, but at the very hour they sacrificed the lamb in the temple that day....and the veil was rent in twain.

Open Heart · Mar 24, 2018

drjean said:
It is my understanding, as told by Messianic Jews in the past, that Yeshua was not only slain on the same day, but at the very hour they sacrificed the lamb in the temple that day....and the veil was rent in twain.

Messianic Jews can't agree on anything other than we love Yeshua and Torah.

Was there no lamb at the Last Supper (meaning Yeshua wasn't celebrating the Passover)? Or did they break the rules and sacrifice a lamb at the wrong time in order to have an early Seder, violating Torah? Do you see the troubles you will run into with your hypothesis?

drjean · Mar 24, 2018

Ok. What about Josephus?
Josephus, who was a priest in the Temple in the first century A.D., makes very clear that the Passover lambs were sacrificed between 3 and 5 o'clock.

How about this for information?

the Gospel of Mark makes very clear that Jesus' passion and death coincided with the offerings of the perpetual sacrifice:
And it was the third hour (9a.m.), when they crucified him (Mark 15:25).
And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour (3 p.m.). And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"... And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed his last. (Mark 15:33-37)
Notice that Mark twice states that Jesus expired at the ninth hour, 3 o'clock. Why the emphasis? Apart from historical accuracy, what is Mark trying to communicate?
I would suggest that both chronological references are meant to tie Jesus' passion and death to the perpetual sacrifice being offered in the Temple: the bloody sacrifice of the unblemished lambs and the unbloody sacrifice of cakes and wine. In other words, Mark is showing us that Jesus is the true Tamid, the true perpetual sacrifice, who replaces the atoning power of the Temple cult. Perhaps this is why he stresses the effect of Jesus' death on the Temple:
"And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. And the veil of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom." (Mark 15:37-38)

The Sacred Page: Was Jesus Really Crucified with the Passover Lambs?

Open Heart · Mar 24, 2018

drjean said:
Ok. What about Josephus?
Josephus, who was a priest in the Temple in the first century A.D., makes very clear that the Passover lambs were sacrificed between 3 and 5 o'clock.

How about this for information?
The Sacred Page: Was Jesus Really Crucified with the Passover Lambs?

I understand your point. But I think if such were the case, it would be so overwhelmingly significant that Mark would simply have said it outright.

pinacled · Mar 24, 2018

פרשת השבוע - Torah Readings for this week

pat34lee · Mar 25, 2018

I want to start this with a couple of questions.

What happens if a person is unclean by touching a dead
body when Passover starts?
See Numbers 9:9-11 & Numbers 19:11-13.

If the Passover had been eaten already, what do you
make of John 18:28 and John 19:14?

Open Heart · Mar 26, 2018

pat34lee said:
I want to start this with a couple of questions.If the Passover had been eaten already, what do you
make of John 18:28 and John 19:14?

I think the gospel of John contradicts the synoptic gospels. IOW, it is historically in error, but is still inerrant in matters of faith and morals.

CherubRam · Mar 26, 2018

Open Heart said:
I will be the first to say that there are differing opinions about this. I tend to stay out of this debate until it actually gets closer to Pesach. So here I am.

First of all, according to Exodus 12:18, The feast of unleavened bread is supposed to start on Nisan 14. These days we start it on the 15. Why the discrepancy? I believe it is because the 14 was the day of preparation, when the lamb was sacrificed (a peace offering?). The Seder was held therefore on the evening of Nisan 15. Today, since there is no corban sacrifice, the first day we celebrate is Nisan 15 by default.

This means that the day of preparation talked about in the synoptic gospels was the daytime of Nisan 14.

The Last Supper was held on the evening of Nisan 15. It leaves plenty of time for the Garden of Gethsemane in the night, as well as the arrest and trial by the Sanhedrin.

In the morning of the 15, Yeshua would have gone before Pilate and Herod, including the scourging. In the afternoon for three hours he would have been crucified. This was still Passover remember, the day after the day of preparation.

Pilate is beseeched to give the body so that it can be buried before the Sabbath. John also calls the day, "the day of preparation" meaning preparation for the Sabbath. Jesus therefore dies and is buried before sundown when Sabbath begins.

That's day one.
The Sabbath is day two
The eight day is day three.

He rises sometime either during the night or early in the morning on the eighth day.

On the evening of the fourteenth begins the fifteenth.

Exodus 12:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twent

CherubRam · Mar 26, 2018

Open Heart said:
I understand your point. But I think if such were the case, it would be so overwhelmingly significant that Mark would simply have said it outright.

Every one here agrees but you.

visionary · Mar 27, 2018

Then there is the concept that it was the Essene's place that Yeshua used for the "last supper" and they were on a different time table and that fits for their faith as to proper timing. Which also makes it possible to eat the Passover seder, and be sacrificed by the Pharisee's time of the Passover to be slayen, as they controlled the temple events.

AbbaLove · Mar 27, 2018

CherubRam said:
On the evening of the fourteenth begins the fifteenth.
18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twent

It depends on how one defines "evening." Between the "evenings" is defined during the time of Yeshua as the decline of the sun beginnng just after noon (first evening) to just before sundown (second evening). In other words "mid-evening" would be approx 3:00 pm when the Paschal lamb was slain and the approx time Yeshua died.

The controversy is whether or not the timeline of Moses' day was different than the timeline of Yeshua's day. The consensus seems to favor the timeline of Yeshua's day as the same timeline of Moses' day (Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18).

Therefore, "evening" is defined as the decline of the afternoon sun from just after noon until just before sunset (not after sunset). If that is how you interpret "evening" in Exodus 12:18 then matzah is first eaten in the afternoon of the 14th. What causes confusion is when "evening" is defined one way in one verse (Exodus 12:6) and then another way in another verse (Exodus 12:18). Shouldn't "evening" have the same meaning in both verses?

So, how do you define the "evening" timeline in Exodus 12:18?

CherubRam · Mar 27, 2018

AbbaLove said:
It depends on how one defines "evening." Between the "evenings" is defined during the time of Yeshua as the decline of the sun beginnng just after noon (first evening) to just before sundown (second evening). In other words "mid-evening" would be approx 3:00 pm when the Paschal lamb was slain and the approx time Yeshua died.

The controversy is whether or not the timeline of Moses' day was different than the timeline of Yeshua's day. The consensus seems to favor the timeline of Yeshua's day as the same timeline of Moses' day (Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18).

Therefore, "evening" is defined as the decline of the afternoon sun from just after noon until just before sunset (not after sunset). If that is how you interpret "evening" in Exodus 12:18 then matzah is first eaten in the afternoon of the 14th. What causes confusion is when "evening" is defined one way in one verse (Exodus 12:6) and then another way in another verse (Exodus 12:18). Shouldn't "evening" have the same meaning in both verses?

So, how do you define the "evening" timeline in Exodus 12:18?

I do not see the word (after noon) in the scriptures.

AbbaLove · Mar 27, 2018

What then is your understanding of the timeline of "evening" in Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18 ? Is it before sunset (in the afternoon) or after sunset?

The translation of that reads "in the afternoon" instead of "in the evening" in Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18 is found in Chabad's "The Complete Tanach" ... do you think that is the wrong translation of "evening" ?

chunkofcoal · Mar 27, 2018

pat34lee said:
If the Passover had been eaten already, what do you
make of John 18:28 and John 19:14?

There were other sacrifices at Passover. Deuteronomy 16; 2 Chronicles 35. Maybe they wanted to/had to, partake of those, too?

CherubRam · Mar 27, 2018

AbbaLove said:
What then is your understanding of the timeline of "evening" in Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18 ? Is it before sunset (in the afternoon) or after sunset?

The translation of that reads "in the afternoon" instead of "in the evening" in Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18 is found in Chabad's "The Complete Tanach" ... do you think that is the wrong translation of "evening" ?

The biblical evening begins at sundown, a new day. I believe the reason it is that way by (tradition,) is because the creation of this world started in darkness.

AbbaLove · Mar 27, 2018

Correction ... The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi Commentary (The Complete Tanach with Rashi) reads "in the afternoon" in Exodus 12:6 and elsewhere when referring to the sacrifice of the lambs. In Exodus 12:18 it reads "evening" which is a little iffy.

CherubRam said:
The biblical evening begins at sundown, a new day. I believe the reason it is that way by (tradition,) is because the creation of this world started in darkness.

Should a new day begin when the rays of sunlight are still visible above the horizon at sundown? In other words night time won't occur until 60 to 75 minutes after sundown or one and one-half hours (90 minutes) according to Abraham Ibn Ezra. Nechemiah implies that “night” begins when the stars emerge, and the time of dusk until they become visible is still considered the previous day.

While a day starts and ends at nightfall, the exact moment when night — and the next calendar date — begins is not clear. The twilight period, from sunset ("shekiah") until three stars are visible in the sky ("tzeit hakochavim"), is an "iffy" time period, known as "bein hashmashot." Shabbat and all the holidays begin at sunset, the earliest possible definition of nightfall, and end when three stars appear in the sky the next evening, the latest definition of nightfall. The time between sundown and when three stars are first seen with the naked eye is no earlier than 30 minutes after sundown.
www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526873/jewish/The-Jewish-Day.htm

The status of the dusk – that is from when the sun sets below the horizon – until it is truly dark (usually measured by the appearance of three medium sized stars in the sky) is a question of debate amongst the early Rabbis. Today we treat this time period as a doubt, and as such we are strict to act as though it is both night and day, whichever side will be strict. For example, on Friday afternoon we start the Jewish Sabbath a few moments before sunset – and treat the dusk period as night, and therefore already Sabbath. But on Saturday night, we do not finish the Sabbath until three stars have appeared in the sky – and thus treat the dusk period as part of the day.
www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=7469

So great Rabbis of the previous generations (especially Rav Tukachinkski zt"l) calculated that these three stars (and the absence of red in the western sky) occurs 32 minutes after sunset in winter, and up to 38 minutes in summer. This is when the sun is 8 degrees below the horizon. This calculation of 8 degrees below the horizon is used in many (most?) countries - and comes out to 50-60 minutes in Europe and America. It gets longer as one goes north. There are other opinions - such as the Chazon Ish who fixed it at 45-50 minutes after sunset. Or those who act according to Rabbenu Tam, who wait 72 minutes.
www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=5534

A verse in the book of Nechemiah might help resolve this question. There it describes the unenviable circumstances in which the Jews were rebuilding the Second Beis Hamikdash, while protecting themselves from the enemies who were determined to thwart its erection: And we were continuing the construction work from daybreak until the stars come out [tzeis hakochavim] while half our men were holding spears… and at night we were on guard, while in the day we could proceed with the work(Nechemiah 4:15-16). Nechemiah implies that “night” begins when the stars emerge, and the time of dusk until they become visible is still considered the previous day (see Berachos 2b; Megillah 20b).
three stars – RabbiKaganoff.com

Open Heart · Mar 27, 2018

CherubRam said:
Every one here agrees but you.

So? This forum has never been representative.

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