Purgatory and Sin Offerings?

Chris V++ · Mar 24, 2018

I started researching the doctrine of purgatory. the Wikipedia entry lists verses believed to be in support of purgatory.
"Descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[5] Those who believe in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-16:26, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-3:15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[3]'

The idea of Purgatory seems like a lot to extrapolate from the New Testament verses listed on Wikipedia. Maybe 1 Corinthians perhaps? "14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire." But when read in context it doesn't really fit.

2 Maccabees on the other hand is rather specific:
2 Maccabees 12:41–46:41
41So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. "

Sin- offering???? To me this sounds like the medieval church selling pardons or indulgences but post mortem. Are sin offerings still practiced?

Albion · Mar 24, 2018

Chris V++ said:
Sin- offering???? To me this sounds like the medieval church selling pardons or indulgences but post mortem. Are sin offerings still practiced?

Yes, although you probably arent going to find anyone who admits to that terminology.

Major1 · Mar 24, 2018

Chris V++ said:
I started researching the doctrine of purgatory. the Wikipedia entry lists verses believed to be in support of purgatory.
"Descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[5] Those who believe in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-16:26, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-3:15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[3]'

The idea of Purgatory seems like a lot to extrapolate from the New Testament verses listed on Wikipedia. Maybe 1 Corinthians perhaps? "14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire." But when read in context it doesn't really fit.

2 Maccabees on the other hand is rather specific:
2 Maccabees 12:41–46:41
41So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. "

Sin- offering???? To me this sounds like the medieval church selling pardons or indulgences but post mortem. Are sin offerings still practiced?

The idea of Purgatory is found in Maccabees but that book in in the Apocrypha which is not found in the canon of Scriptures so then it can not be used to formulate any Biblical doctrine.

The RCC uses it because there are NO BIBLE whatsoever to base a doctrine on.

The Roman Catholic church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing (or "purging"). Such souls are oppressed with a sense of deprivation and suffer certain pain. How long they stay in purgatory - and how much suffering they undergo while there - depends upon their particular state of sin.

That thought is no where to be found in the Scriptures!

Roman Catholics also teach that a person's time in purgatory may be shortened, and his pains alleviated, by the faithful prayers and good works of those still alive. The sacrifice of the Mass is viewed as especially important in this regard.

That purgatory is a false doctrine is easy to prove from the Scriptures. When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4).

Hebrews 10:14 emphatically declares, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." Hence, those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever; no further "purging" is necessary.

First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Jesus took care of "purging" our sins by His work of salvation at the cross. Hebrews 1:3 affirms, "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus provided full purification for our sins.
Is Purgatory Biblical?

The key here to this my friend is that it does not matter what the Word of God says to the Catholic believer, he will follow his Pope's teaching instead of the Word of God because he accepts the RCC teaching of "Traditions of men" over and above the teaching of God as found in the Bible.

YES, it is just that simple.

Wait and see and you will soon understand how true that statement actually is.

Chris V++ · Mar 25, 2018

Major1 said:
The Roman Catholic church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing (or "purging").

My understanding was that the duration in purgatory had to do with confession. Weekly sins have to be confessed and penance performed for forgiveness. An un-confessed 'mortal sin' means hell. Its the venial sins that have to be purged in purgatory, but if they are confessed and penance performed purgatory is possibly escapable?

So by this doctrine confession and penance is everything, since even a true believer can commit a mortal sin, die without penance and end up in hell. Or is this no longer the belief? At one time even missing a church service or a holy day of obligation was considered a mortal sin, but I'm not sure if this is still the belief.

Here's how Shakespeare handled purgatory. Hamlet's father's ghost comes to him from purgatory upset with his brother for killing him especially before he had a chance to confess.

'I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature. Are burnt and purged away. ... Thus was I sleeping by a brother's hand Of life, of crown, of queen at once dispatched,
Cut off even in the blossoms of my sin,Unhouseled, disappointed, unaneled, No reck'ning made, but sent to my account With all my imperfections on my head...'

Not sure if purgatory is still thought of in the same way.

Albion · Mar 25, 2018

Chris V++ said:
My understanding was that tpunihe duration in purgatory had to do with confession. Weekly sins have to be confessed and penance performed for forgiveness. An un-confessed 'mortal sin' means hell. Its the venial sins that have to be purged in purgatory, but if they are confessed and penance performed purgatory is possibly escapable?

Nope. The church's teaching is that a person who is otherwise heaven-bound must first be purge or punished in Purgatory for mortal sins that he previously was absolved of. God's justice demands that there be punishment because these sins were committed in the first place, even though the eternal consequences of committing them have been remitted by confession, etc.

So by this doctrine confession and penance is everything, since even a true believer can commit a mortal sin, die without penance and end up in hell. Or is this no longer the belief?

It still is, although an act of contrition is believed to be effective even if not done through the sacrament of Confession (now called by another name) with a priest's absolution given.

Major1 · Mar 25, 2018

Chris V++ said:
My understanding was that the duration in purgatory had to do with confession. Weekly sins have to be confessed and penance performed for forgiveness. An un-confessed 'mortal sin' means hell. Its the venial sins that have to be purged in purgatory, but if they are confessed and penance performed purgatory is possibly escapable?

So by this doctrine confession and penance is everything, since even a true believer can commit a mortal sin, die without penance and end up in hell. Or is this no longer the belief? At one time even missing a church service or a holy day of obligation was considered a mortal sin, but I'm not sure if this is still the belief.

Here's how Shakespeare handled purgatory. Hamlet's father's ghost comes to him from purgatory upset with his brother for killing him especially before he had a chance to confess.

'I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature. Are burnt and purged away. ... Thus was I sleeping by a brother's hand Of life, of crown, of queen at once dispatched,
Cut off even in the blossoms of my sin,Unhouseled, disappointed, unaneled, No reck'ning made, but sent to my account With all my imperfections on my head...'

Not sure if purgatory is still thought of in the same way.

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27).

Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.
What does the Bible say about Purgatory?

Purgatory is not a Bible teaching and can not be found anywhere in the canon of Scriptures.

Phil 1:21 · Mar 26, 2018

Chris V++ said:
My understanding was that the duration in purgatory had to do with confession.

In years past the duration in purgatory could be shortened through the purchase of indulgences, which the RCC sold to fund the bulk of the construction for St. Peter's Basilica. These days there are all kind of works that can supposedly shorten one's stay in purgatory, but the "strangest" one (in my opinion) involves the use of a pardon crucifix. Apparently you get days off for carrying it, kissing it and so forth. One has to questions the validity of a doctrine (purgatory) that can be abated by means of a $5.00 piece of plastic bought on Ebay.

Pardon Crucifix

Chris V++ said:
Weekly sins have to be confessed and penance performed for forgiveness. An un-confessed 'mortal sin' means hell.

Yes, that is correct. So if one commits a "mortal sin", like say, masturbating or missing mass one Sunday, and dies in a car crash before they can confess their sin and receive the sacrament of penance, it's the A-train to the lake of fire for them. Do not pass Go, do not collect eternal salvation.

Does this sound remotely biblical? It shouldn't, because it isn't.

Chris V++ · Mar 26, 2018

Albion said:
sacrament of Confession (now called by another name) with a priest's absolution given.

Thanks for the explanation. What are they now calling Confession? It seems like some of the terms have changed even within my lifetime.

Phil 1:21 said:
In years past the duration in purgatory could be shortened through the purchase of indulgences, which the RCC sold to fund the bulk of the construction for St. Peter's Basilica.

Wonder if that's ever mentioned on the tour?

I thought that this might be challenged as maybe controversial conspiracy stuff but it's apparently common knowledge. It's even on their Wikipedia page.

'Financing with indulgences[edit]
One method employed to finance the building of St. Peter's Basilica was the granting of indulgences in return for contributions. A major promoter of this method of fund-raising was Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, who had to clear debts owed to the Roman Curia by contributing to the rebuilding program. To facilitate this, he appointed the German Dominican preacher Johann Tetzel, whose salesmanship provoked a scandal.[33]
A German Augustinian priest, Martin Luther, wrote to Archbishop Albrecht arguing against this "selling of indulgences". He also included his "Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences", which came to be known as The 95 Theses.[34] This became a factor in starting the Reformation, the birth of Protestantism.'

Phil 1:21 said:
Pardon Crucifix
Yes, that is correct. So if one commits a "mortal sin", like say, masturbating

Mortal? Maybe it's treated as adultery? I believe even the OT cleansing ritual for that one was 'take a shower' and you're ceremonially clean by sunrise.

Albion · Mar 26, 2018

Chris V++ said:
Thanks for the explanation. What are they now calling Confession? It seems like some of the terms have changed even within my lifetime.

Reconciliation. The correct name had been Penance previously, although most people simply called it Confession.

Mark_Sam · Mar 27, 2018

Purgatory
It is also important to note that indulgences are applied to the souls in Purgatory "by suffrage". That is, we pray that God would apply them to the dead, but it is not guaranteed. The Church on earth, headed by the Pope, has no authority over the dead, but we can still pray for them. It is a subtle difference. The Mass is the most excellent and effective of prayers, and can also be offered for the souls in Purgatory.

For me, the doctrine of Purgatory is logically necessary:
P1. Nothing unclean can enter into heaven (Revelation 21:27).
P2. It is possible for a Christian to still have sin and the stains of sin in them, even after conversion (1 John 1:10-2:2).
C. Therefore, those who are saved but still have sin in them will have to be purified or cleaned before being able to enter into heaven. This state of purification is what is understood by the term Purgatory.

Confession and mortal sin
It is correct that those who die in a state of mortal sin will wind up in Hell. But if you truly repent of your sin, and resolve to make amends and go to Confession as soon as you are able to, you will be forgiven, even if you die before the actual Confession. Actually, true repentance and true contrition will lead to forgiveness in and of itself, but Confession is still necessary if you are able to. Being in "the state of mortal sin" has a certain unrepentedness to it. The very fact that you go to Confession is a sign that God's grace is working in your soul.

Also, for a sin to be mortal, there are three conditions: 1) It is a grave matter. 2) You know, or should have known, that this is wrong and sinfull. 3) You have to do it by your own free will. Missing Mass because you overslept or masturbating out of habit (i.e. it might not be completely voluntary) can lessen the seriousness of the sin committed. But it should still be confessed, though. Non-mortal sins are called venial sins, and can be forgiven through other means.

So Catholic moral theology is a bit more nuanced.

Penance and Indulgences
The days and years of indulgences refers to days of penance. In the old days, Confession was a more public affair. The Church would impose, for example, 600 days of penance on the penitent. That meant that for 600 days, the penitent would have to fast, pray and do other such works. Penances used to be quite brutal by modern standards. But the good works and deeds of the saints and martyrs in heaven could be applied to the penitent, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the "Communion of Saints". So if the penitent was granted an indulgence of 500 days by the Church, he would only have to do penance for 100 days, since the works of the saints would make up for it. It is an example of one part of the Body of Christ helping another part of the same Body.

However, as time went on, things changed. Numbers quickly became meaningless in the new context. Therefore, in the 1960's, the whole system was changed. Now, indulgences are either full og partial.

"Prayer, indulgence, 100 days" never meant "say this prayer and you will get 100 days less in Purgatory". It meant "in the ancient Church, saying this prayer would remitt 100 days of fasting and penance imposed in the Sacrament of Confession, as a means to remove the stains of sins left on the soul". You can see why they changed the system.

Chris V++ · Mar 27, 2018

Thanks Mark for the explanation and your insights.

Mark_Sam said:
C. Therefore, those who are saved but still have sin in them will have to be purified or cleaned before being able to enter into heaven.

The selling of indulgences aspect of the system seems wrought with opportunity for the church to take advantage of its members if so inclined, like spiritual ransom. It also seems to favor those with means.

Mark_Sam said:
The days and years of indulgences refers to days of penance. In the old days, Confession was a more public affair. The Church would impose, for example, 600 days of penance on the penitent. That meant that for 600 days, the penitent would have to fast, pray and do other such works. Penances used to be quite brutal by modern standards

What a much heavier yoke back then.

Thanks again!

Fidelibus · Mar 27, 2018

Chris V++ said:
I started researching the doctrine of purgatory. the Wikipedia entry lists verses believed to be in support of purgatory.

Hello Cris V.

I would suggest.... instead of going Wikipedia or this Forum to learn of the Catholic Church's true teaching on Purgatory, is to go the Catholic Church herself for your research to avoid the conflicting opinions/ fallicies/ mis-information you are getting here from biased non-Catholics with an agenda.

Some good reliable Catholic sites are Catholic.com/ Catholicanswers.com/ EWTN.com/ askacatholic.com, and type in Purgatory.

Have a Blessed Holy Week

Mark_Sam · Mar 28, 2018

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992) deals with Purgatory in sections 1030-1032:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (Quote by St. Gregory the Great)

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." (2 Macc 12:45) From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. (Quote by St. John Chrysostom)

Also, Denzinger, a compendium of texts on Catholic teaching, cites the Councils of Florence and of Trent (new numbering system):

It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. (Council of Florence; Denzinger 1304)

Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Spirit, in conformitywith the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecumenical Synod, has taught that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are assisted by the suffrages of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy Synod commands the bishops that they insist that the sound doctrine of purgatory, which has been transmitted by the holy Fathers and holy Councils, be believed by the faithful of Christ, be maintained, taught, and everywhere preached. Let the more difficult and subtle "questions," however, and those which do not make for "edification" [cf.1 Tim. 1:4], and from which there is very often no increase in piety, be excluded from popular discourses to uneducated people. Likewise, let them not permit uncertain matters, or those that have the appearance of falsehood, to be brought out and discussed publicly. Those matters on the contrary, which tend to a certain curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling blocks to the faithful. (Council of Trent, session XXV; Denzinger 1820).

If anyone shall say that after the reception of the grace of justification, to every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out that no penalty of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in the world to come in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification; Denzinger 1580).

As far as I know, these are the most authoritative and dogmatic texts the Roman Catholic Church has to offer on Purgatory.

Major1 · Mar 28, 2018

Mark_Sam said:
Purgatory
It is also important to note that indulgences are applied to the souls in Purgatory "by suffrage". That is, we pray that God would apply them to the dead, but it is not guaranteed. The Church on earth, headed by the Pope, has no authority over the dead, but we can still pray for them. It is a subtle difference. The Mass is the most excellent and effective of prayers, and can also be offered for the souls in Purgatory.

For me, the doctrine of Purgatory is logically necessary:
P1. Nothing unclean can enter into heaven (Revelation 21:27).
P2. It is possible for a Christian to still have sin and the stains of sin in them, even after conversion (1 John 1:10-2:2).
C. Therefore, those who are saved but still have sin in them will have to be purified or cleaned before being able to enter into heaven. This state of purification is what is understood by the term Purgatory.

Confession and mortal sin
It is correct that those who die in a state of mortal sin will wind up in Hell. But if you truly repent of your sin, and resolve to make amends and go to Confession as soon as you are able to, you will be forgiven, even if you die before the actual Confession. Actually, true repentance and true contrition will lead to forgiveness in and of itself, but Confession is still necessary if you are able to. Being in "the state of mortal sin" has a certain unrepentedness to it. The very fact that you go to Confession is a sign that God's grace is working in your soul.

Also, for a sin to be mortal, there are three conditions: 1) It is a grave matter. 2) You know, or should have known, that this is wrong and sinfull. 3) You have to do it by your own free will. Missing Mass because you overslept or masturbating out of habit (i.e. it might not be completely voluntary) can lessen the seriousness of the sin committed. But it should still be confessed, though. Non-mortal sins are called venial sins, and can be forgiven through other means.

So Catholic moral theology is a bit more nuanced.

Penance and Indulgences
The days and years of indulgences refers to days of penance. In the old days, Confession was a more public affair. The Church would impose, for example, 600 days of penance on the penitent. That meant that for 600 days, the penitent would have to fast, pray and do other such works. Penances used to be quite brutal by modern standards. But the good works and deeds of the saints and martyrs in heaven could be applied to the penitent, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the "Communion of Saints". So if the penitent was granted an indulgence of 500 days by the Church, he would only have to do penance for 100 days, since the works of the saints would make up for it. It is an example of one part of the Body of Christ helping another part of the same Body.

However, as time went on, things changed. Numbers quickly became meaningless in the new context. Therefore, in the 1960's, the whole system was changed. Now, indulgences are either full og partial.

"Prayer, indulgence, 100 days" never meant "say this prayer and you will get 100 days less in Purgatory". It meant "in the ancient Church, saying this prayer would remitt 100 days of fasting and penance imposed in the Sacrament of Confession, as a means to remove the stains of sins left on the soul". You can see why they changed the system.

Mark, I think that the push back that will take place here from a lot of Protestants is the simple fact that Purgatory is not a Bible doctrine at all.

Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication. The invention of a place for purification of sins called Purgatory is one of the most seductive attractions of the Roman Catholic religion.

Pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church described this deceptive hoax brilliantly. He said:..........
“Purgatory is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory and it’s a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don’t go to hell. You go [to Purgatory] and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you’ve been a good Catholic. In the Catholic system you can never know you’re going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying…in a long journey toward perfection. Well, it’s pretty discouraging. People in that system are guilt-ridden, fear-ridden and have no knowledge of whether or not they’re going to get into the Kingdom. If there’s no Purgatory, there’s no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It’s a second chance, it’s another chance after death” (from “The Pope and the Papacy“).

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory as “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.”

They must be purified of these “venial” sins before they can be allowed into heaven. Here we see Catholicism perpetuating the seductive lie of Satan by declaring “you will not surely die” when you commit venial sins (Gen. 3:4). The Council of Trent dares to declare that “God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt.

God requires satisfaction and will punish sin…The sinner, failing to do penance in this life, may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.” (Session 15, Can. XI). Those Catholic Bishops had the audacity to declare that the suffering and death of God’s perfect man and man’s perfect substitute was not sufficient to satisfy divine justice for sin.
Purgatory: Purifying Fire or False Doctrine Fable

Phil 1:21 · Mar 28, 2018

Major1 said:
...or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.”

"Tetelestai!"

Mark_Sam · Mar 28, 2018

The suffering, death and resurrection of Christ is enough to save mankind. The problem is how that perfect one-time-for-all sacrifice of the cross comes to us today, and how it justifies us. If we die, tainted by sin, or with sin still in us, that will have to be dealt with before we can enter heaven. Christians still sin after conversion, and that will have to be dealt with, either in this life or the next. This all boils down to the understanding of justification.

Major1 · Mar 28, 2018

Mark_Sam said:
The suffering, death and resurrection of Christ is enough to save mankind. The problem is how that perfect one-time-for-all sacrifice of the cross comes to us today, and how it justifies us. If we die, tainted by sin, or with sin still in us, that will have to be dealt with before we can enter heaven. Christians still sin after conversion, and that will have to be dealt with, either in this life or the next. This all boils down to the understanding of justification.

I have to disagree with you mu friend. There is NO problem whatsoever as to how the once for all sacrifice of Jesus comes to us today.

As all are sinners, then it is logical to assume that almost every Christian will die with some kind of sin on him unless he happens to be in the acts on confessing his sin to God. But that is NOT the problem.

Scripture is very clear that we are saved by faith and not by works that we do. Jesus said that the one who believes in Him has eternal life. Thus, we are not saved because we do not get angry or because we do not curse or lie, steal or cheat. We are saved solely by trusting in Jesus Christ. This is important to understand.

Listen my friend, if all of the Christians in all of the world had to confess all of our sins in order to get to heaven, none of us would have a chance. But salvation is not based on our confession of sins, but on our confession of Christ.

Also, it is not on what we have done or not done but 100% on what Jesus did for us!!!

And if a person is saved and they sin and then die without asking for forgiveness, they will go to be with God. So yes, a Christian can die in sin and almost all in fact do and still go to heaven.

As Paul says in Philippians 3:8-9.........."
"we do not stand in our righteousness, but in the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 8:1.......
"If we are in Christ, there is no condemnation for us."

This very basic and fundamental Bible doctrine is the exact reason WHY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PURGATORY because ALL sin was paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:7 & 9......
“The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin”.... and “ALL unrighteousness” .

Do you think that "ALL" mean ALL ?????

Now, did God say that?
Can God lie?

That being the case then what need is there for any purging of venial sins or any other kind of sins?????

Mark_Sam · Mar 28, 2018

Major1 said:
And if a person is saved and they sin and then die without asking for forgiveness, they will go to be with God. So yes, a Christian can die in sin and almost all in fact do and still go to heaven.

Right here is the crux of the matter. They die, their soul dirtied and stained by sin. So if they go straight to heaven, does that mean that there is sin and sinfulness in heaven? How can the sinful souls stand before the throne of the all-holy God in heaven, when not even Moses could see the Face of God and still live? Yes, these souls are "declared righteous" and justified, but objectively, they are still sinful. They might be coated in the righteousness and holiness of Christ, but if they are not themselves made holy and sinless, then they are still objectively sinful. They are not condemned, but they are still sinful. Face to Face with God. That is the problem.

Or are the souls cleansed and purified immediately, even released, from all sin upon entering heaven? Because if that's the case, then that is what I mean by Purgatory: a post-death cleansing of the soul. Immediately or not, if there is some sort of cleansing of sin after death, then that is Purgatory.

The third option would be to say that the souls are already cleansed in this life, and only the flesh is sinful, and therefore they can immediately enter heaven without purification. But that would imply that the soul itself, the seat of the reason and the will, cannot sin. And that brings its own sets of theological issues with it.

Chris V++ · Mar 28, 2018

Mark_Sam said:
The third option would be to say that the souls are already cleansed in this life, and only the flesh is sinful, and therefore they can immediately enter heaven without purification

Thanks again for answering. Hebrews 10 seems to bes confirming the 3rd option you mentioned. Note the 'one sacrifice' and 'he made perfect forever' and 'I will remember no more' That's why the notion of 'sin offerings' for souls in purgatory mentioned in Maccabees seemed so contrary to the NT. Perfect can also mean 'spotless' The NT seems to be saying our sin 'spots' or 'stains' are already cleansed:

Hebrews 10:
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”b
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c

18And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Chris V++ · Mar 28, 2018

Mark_Sam said:
Right here is the crux of the matter. They die, their soul dirtied and stained by sin...

Mark_Sam said:
If we die, tainted by sin,

Christ already removed our stains. We Christians are the Church:

Ephesians 5 addresses this specifically:
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Purgatory and Sin Offerings?

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