Shouldn't God's eternal love mean hell can't exist?

David7818

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God saw what they could do---the choice was theirs. To force anyone to do what you want them to do is not love, it is not freedom. True freedom requires choice. True love means you give someone the option of rejecting you. Anything less is slavery. And yes, God could have wiped out Satan and his followers. And then wiped the memory of them off the rest of the angels. That still would leave everyone without true love or freedom or truth. God doesn't deal in half-truths and fakery nor forced obedience.
Not God's fault Abraham stopped at ten. That was the deal Abraham made. He just figured there had to be ten faithful---there weren't.
Good post
 
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Noxot

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I think that Gods promise is more sure than a little bit of displeasure towards God and his people and subsequent shame. it might take a while but hells nature can't be eternal as that would make it equal to God. one can't feel shame if they don't exist. shame is a sign of the start of repentance. God is eternal and is therefore eternally merciful.

God who is greater than us has declared what shall be.

Isa 45:20-25 (YLT)
Be gathered, and come in, Come nigh together, ye escaped of the nations, They have not known, Who are lifting up the wood of their graven image, And praying unto a god that saveth not. Declare ye, and bring near, Yea, they take counsel together, Who hath proclaimed this from of old? From that time hath declared it? Is it not I--Jehovah? And there is no other god besides Me, A God righteous and saving, there is none save Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is none else. By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear. Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength, Unto Him he cometh in, And ashamed are all those displeased with Him. In Jehovah are all the seed of Israel justified, And they boast themselves.'
 
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Shempster

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If God was not surprised by the fall of man then let's go back to the moment before He created Adam. Let's not assume He limited His knowledge of the future for a minute. That seems silly to me anyway.
He must have known that man would enter into sin and take the creation with him. He must have been able to see every last single human who would ever live and also see every bit of pain and suffering through time.
Yet He went ahead and created Adam anyway. Now take into account that most Christians believe that the vast majority of humans will not be saved but tortured for all of eternity.

So the question is did He purpose it all to happen this way?
Why would He do that knowing ahead that for whatever reason, most will not become a Christian? I understand the whole "free will" thing, but knowing ahead of time it would happen is tantamount to intending it.

Thoughts?
 
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mmksparbud

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How do you make a choice without knowledge?

The first question in the Bible is not about choice, it is about source; an outward picture if an inward truth, and the process of it.


Even a dog knows the meaning of no---you do not have to have detailed knowledge to not do something. The first thing a baby learns is no. Doesn't require a college education.
The question was one if obedience---they knew exactly what do bot eat of that one tree meant--they had everything else they could eat---just not this one thing. Didn't take a genius.
 
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Aseyesee

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Even a dog knows the meaning of no---you do not have to have detailed knowledge to not do something. The first thing a baby learns is no. Doesn't require a college education.
The question was one if obedience---they knew exactly what do bot eat of that one tree meant--they had everything else they could eat---just not this one thing. Didn't take a genius.

You don't actually think knowledge grows on a tree now do you?

God repents himself that he created man on the earth ... as if he was surprised over the outcome of doing so ... falls under Adam where art thou.

The first thing my children learned was not no ...
 
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David7818

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You don't actually think knowledge grows on a tree now do you?

God repents himself that he created man on the earth ... as if he was surprised over the outcome of doing so ... falls under Adam where art thou.

The first thing my children learned was not no ...
Correct. You have to put a lot of effrt, love, work and devotion into a child, as God does man.
 
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mmksparbud

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You don't actually think knowledge grows on a tree now do you?

God repents himself that he created man on the earth ... as if he was surprised over the outcome of doing so ... falls under Adam where art thou.

The first thing my children learned was not no ...


That wasn't the point---no means no--that was the point. You think God didn't know where they were? Of course He did. He wanted them to come to Him. When a child starts exploring, they do need to understand no. And they do not need to know that playing with matches can entail burning down the house and hurting yourself---the word is no. They don't understand anything else. When a dog or a child is about to cross a busy street, if they have learned to obey to no---it will save their lives.
 
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Noxot

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sometimes something becomes more appealing or desirable to do if you are told "no".

my brother was told to not play with fire so = go and hide in moms closet and catch her cloths on fire.

I was told electricity is dangerous but it was cooler finding out the hard way. it was a shock to me.
 
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Aseyesee

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That wasn't the point---no means no--that was the point. You think God didn't know where they were? Of course He did. He wanted them to come to Him. When a child starts exploring, they do need to understand no. And they do not need to know that playing with matches can entail burning down the house and hurting yourself---the word is no. They don't understand anything else. When a dog or a child is about to cross a busy street, if they have learned to obey to no---it will save their lives.

The point has always been the soul ... just as Where art thou was not about location, but perception (which we then form our image of God out of) i.e. can be found in Adam's reply).
 
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Aseyesee

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sometimes something becomes more appealing or desirable to do if you are told "no".

my brother was told to not play with fire so = go and hide in moms closet and catch her cloths on fire.

I was told electricity is dangerous but it was cooler finding out the hard way. it was a shock to me.

A seed sown ... was it an enemy ... are ypu gor us or gor our enemies ... neither ... fast forward to Jesus' ladder, one without steps ...
 
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Aseyesee

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Correct. You have to put a lot of effrt, love, work and devotion into a child, as God does man.

Why would God be surprised about an outcome he foreknew? Or was there another reason for saying this, something progressive like a seed that becomes a great tree and all the fowl of the air rest in the branches of it ...
 
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mmksparbud

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The point has always been the soul ... just as Where art thou was not about location, but perception (which we then form our image of God out of) i.e. can be found in Adam's reply).

Of course, which is why God asked the question. He knew where they were. Up until then, He had always come to them, this time, they had to come to Him. They were afraid of Him now.
 
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David7818

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Why would God be surprised about an outcome he foreknew? Or was there another reason for saying this, something progressive like a seed that becomes a great tree and all the fowl of the air rest in the branches of it ...
It's a seed that becomes a great tree. Just teling someone something isn't enough. I think some older people have a conspiracy against the younger and God could send them where they need to be. It's not right to hate young people, a younger person made planets. Some older folk are wrong, I just want some young folk to be cautious and wary.
 
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David7818

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It's a seed that becomes a great tree. Just teling someone something isn't enough. I think some older people have a conspiracy against the younger and God could send them where they need to be. It's not right to hate young people, a younger person made planets. Some older folk are wrong, I just want some young folk to be cautious and wary.
They try to sentence younger people t death and turn their family against them and their people next to them.
 
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