Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

ClementofA · Mar 23, 2018

Butch5 said:
That's a study? Where are all of the verses that use olam for a finite period of time?

OLAM pretty much corresponds with AIONIOS in these verses:

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios)
decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity,
and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,
in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?
where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

“Don’t be afraid; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be disappointed: for you shall forget the shame of your youth(aionios);
and the reproach of your widowhood you shall remember no more. (Isa 54:4)

ClementofA · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
Here is a word study I did in the OT on the word "olam."

Der Alter said:
verses which define the word “olam.”

What Greek or Hebrew authority tells you the Bible defines words? What degrees in Hebrew or Greek do you have?

"I have never seen ANY word in the New Testament defined by some other word. The writers simply used the words; they didn't define them."

"Association with other words does NOT define a word."

As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

Der Alter said:
In order for the phrase to be correctly translated "to the king of the ages" the noun βασιλει/basilei must be in the genitive case, as it is in the 29 times it is translated "king of" in the NT. And that is why the NIV and NET translate 1 Tim 1:17 "king eternal."

Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

"This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

Have you ever had even one lesson in Koine Greek?

ClementofA · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant. If you want to prove that then go through the OT and show verses where "olam" is defined by other words or phrases as I did.

Der Alter said:
A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. .

To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.

Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.

Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ

"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
He was quoting a prophecy in Isaiah. He addressed this by saying that the wages of sin is DEATH. I don't know how he could have been more clear. Should he have said they will be destroyed? Should he have said they would cease to exist forever? Should he have said they will end in destruction? Should he have said they would perish?
I don't know how he could have made it more clear.

So Jesus was alluding, to, not quoting, Isaiah. He knew that some Jews believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity." So why would Jesus mention "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die," at least twice, without explaining that this was only figurative? Jesus did NOT say "the wages of sin is death" Paul did about 40 years later Romans 6:23. I think that is called conflating.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.
Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.
Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)
Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)
Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)
ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ
"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).

So you found 2-3 verses which seem to support your argument. Now all you have to do is find about 35 more. But wait didn't you say that the 35 verses I quoted did not prove that olam means eternal? So how can the verses you quoted prove the opposite?
.....Here is the definition of olam from Brown, Driver, Briggs Lexicon of Hebrew, one of, if not, the highest accredited lexicons available which you either ignored or blew off before.

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in Kit); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11*; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17; 1 S 27:12; Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live alway 1 K 1:31; Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself 89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25; Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5; 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5; Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8; Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51; 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5; 1 Ch 28:4, 7; 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29() = 1 Ch 17:27(); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28; 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21; Is 57:16; Je 3:5, 12; La 3:31; Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22; Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12; Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7; Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8; 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: מ(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5; 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7; Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further I. עַד p. 723.
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (pp. 761–763). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

Butch5 · Mar 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
OLAM pretty much corresponds with AIONIOS in these verses:

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios)
decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity,
and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,
in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?
where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

“Don’t be afraid; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be disappointed: for you shall forget the shame of your youth(aionios);
and the reproach of your widowhood you shall remember no more. (Isa 54:4)

Yes, the Septuagint does use aion to translate olam. And yes, you are correct it is used of finite periods of time. That's why I don't see how anyone can claim it means eternity. Even these lexicons flatly define the word incorrectly.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

Butch5 said:
Irrelevant? How do you have a study and only include the verses you want to use? That's not a study, that's propaganda.
Yes, begging the question. Will the generations of Israel cease? Unless you prove they don't your argument is begging the question.
However, there is no debate here. Olam is used of finite periods of time. Thus it cannot mean eternity. A word can have more than one meaning, but it can't have opposing meanings. In every single passage you posted the phrase ages of ages or unto the ages will work. Therefore there is no reason to try to change the meaning of the word.

You do what you are accusing me of every time you post scripture in support of your argument without posting scriptures which don't. Pot-kettle. When you have a graduate degree in Greek then you can lecture me on Greek. I didn't change the meaning of anything check any major Bible translation.

ClementofA said:
How many years have you studied Biblical Hebrew? Do you have any qualifications in it whatsoever, or nada, nil, zilch, zero?

I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany. I formally studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades later. I am not an expert but I do know enough to recognize when people who don't know what they are talking about try to lecture me on either language.

BDB lexicon disagrees with you, as lexicons generally do:
Brown-Driver-Briggs
עוֺלָם439 noun masculine long duration, antiquity, futurity

;
Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

See the full definition from BDB above. Does this selectively quoted article disagree with me. Let's see what you left out at your link.

ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1).

Butch5 · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
You do what you are accusing me of every time you post scripture in support of your argument without posting scriptures which don't. Pot-kettle. When you have a graduate degree in Greek then you can lecture me on Greek. I didn't change the meaning of anything check any major Bible translation.

No I don't. It's find when you make an argument and post supporting Scriptures. However, you presented that post as a word study. I was a word study of only passages that could seem to translated as forever. In a word study we need to look at all of the ways a word is used to understand what the word means.

One doesn't need a graduate degree in Greek to see error. Logic doesn't require a degree in Greek either. The word olam cannot mean finite and infinite, they are mutually exclusive. The only way to reconcile all of the passages is to understand the word olam as an age.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

Butch5 said:
Yes, the Septuagint does use aion to translate olam. And yes, you are correct it is used of finite periods of time. That's why I don't see how anyone can claim it means eternity. Even these lexicons flatly define the word incorrectly.

Right! You and the other guy probably could not parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if your lives depended on it, you are going to say that the lexicons are wrong. When you have a graduate degree in Greek and have about 2 decades of teaching, study and translation then you might be qualified to disagree with the lexicons. Try actually reading the lexicon you will see many references in the definition those are the sources the translators use to determine their translations.
.....I learned to speak German when I was 12. 6 years later I was stationed in Germany. I was having a conversation with a German couple who I was friends with. The woman said something to me which I didn't understand it was the German word "beinahe" which means "almost." So she used it in some sentences and the light came on. That is how words are defined by how they are used by native speakers.

Oseas · Mar 23, 2018

[QUOTE Jordan Henshaw, post #444]

Eternity is not a duration of time. It essentially means the absence of time[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are 100% right. Only for a meditation or even a deeper study of the mysteries concerning the works of God, figuratively considering that the Old Testament (first heavenly place established by God here on earth through Moses, exclusively to shelter and protect the people of Israel), this first heaven lasted for about 1500 years, ie from Moses to John the Baptist. (By the way, from Adam until Moses passed around 2500 years, and from Adam until JESUS passed around 4000 years. The first coming of JESUS occurred in the fourth Day in accord Genesis 1. (One Day with the Lord is as a thousand years. (Psalms 90:v.4 and 2Pe.3:v.8)

Through JESUS, the Most High God established the second heavenly place here on Earth, a New Testament (Eph.1: v.3 among others), all believers in Jesus know all things that was made of holiness and sanctification, and all things which was announced by JESUS and his Apostles and disciples until now, until these days of Apocalypse, therefore, this second heavenly place has just completed around 2000 years. Thus, we can consider that from Adam until today have passed around 6,000 years. (By the way, we have just entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ)

In the face of these revelations, as we have already seen, we know beforehand that the Kingdom of God will be established in this millennium in which we are living, and this new celestial environment is exactly the third heavenly place in Christ that will be established and this third heavenly place has a PRE-DETERMINED duration of 1,000 years , ie all this seventh and last millennium has been RESERVED for the Kingdom of God, which is the third heaven that is the place where the Apostle Paul was and saw ineffable things that it is not lawful to say to men.

As Jordan said, '' Eternity is not the duration of time. It essentially means the absence of time. You are entirely correct.
You see, after the second battle against Satan in this millennium (the first is now at the beginning of this millennium in which we are living, prepare yourself, precisely at the beginning of this first CENTURY of this seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day), yes, after the second battle against Satan at the end of this millennium, the Heaven of the heavens will be established throughout eternity, and time will no longer be counted, time will have no meaning, if you were to count the years (just to exemplify) the numbers would be infinite and impossible to read them. Verily, "Eternity is not the duration of time. It essentially means the absence of time".

Although English is not my native language, with much effort I hope I have been as clear as possible to a reasonable understanding of the above.

Butch5 · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
Right! You and the other guy probably could not parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if your lives depended on it, you are going to say that the lexicons are wrong. When you have a graduate degree in Greek and have about 2 decades of teaching, study and translation then you might be qualified to disagree with the lexicons. Try actually reading the lexicon you will see many references in the definition those are the sources the translators use to determine their translations.
.....I learned to speak German when I was 12. 6 years later I was stationed in Germany. I was having a conversation with a German couple who I was friends with. The woman said something to me which I didn't understand it was the German word "beinahe" which means "almost." So she used it in some sentences and the light came on. That is how words are defined by how they are used by native speakers.

Well since you don't know either of us you're hardly in a position to make claims. However, as I said, one doesn't need a degree to see error. The word simply cannot mean both finite and infinite. It just can't be. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a degree in Greek to see that. You claim your appeal to authority fallacy if you like. However, as I said it doesn't take a degree to see the error in translating olam as forever.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

Butch5 said:
No I don't. It's find when you make an argument and post supporting Scriptures. However, you presented that post as a word study. I was a word study of only passages that could seem to translated as forever. In a word study we need to look at all of the ways a word is used to understand what the word means.
One doesn't need a graduate degree in Greek to see error. Logic doesn't require a degree in Greek either. The word olam cannot mean finite and infinite, they are mutually exclusive. The only way to reconcile all of the passages is to understand the word olam as an age.

How many verses did you read when you replied to me? So all we have is unsupported, biased opinion.

Butch5 · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
How many verses did you read when you replied to me? So all we have is unsupported, biased opinion.

Seriously? Look Jesus said the Law and prophets were until John. Moses records things in the Mosaic Law as being olam. The translators translate it as forever. Either it's forever or it's not. Jesus indicated that the Law ended. Thus olam cannot mean forever. This isn't hard. It's actually really if we're not pushing an agenda.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

Butch5 said:
Well since you don't know either of us you're hardly in a position to make claims. However, as I said, one doesn't need a degree to see error. The word simply cannot mean both finite and infinite. It just can't be. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a degree in Greek to see that. You claim your appeal to authority fallacy if you like. However, as I said it doesn't take a degree to see the error in translating olam as forever.

You presume to lecture on Greek but once again you prove that you don't know what you are talking about in English. "Appeal to authority" does not refer to citing a credible source. It means to cite someone who is not knowledgeable in the point or subject being discussed. For example, "President Bill Clinton said that the word olam never means a finite period of time." That is appealing to authority.
What does "olam" mean in these verses?

Daniel 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם/olam] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jeremiah 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם/olam]—everlasting shame [ עולם/olam] that will not be forgotten."

In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “that will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “that will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jeremiah 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [עולם/olam] covenant that will not be forgotten.

In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “that will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does. That is an example of a word being defined by context.

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in Kit); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11*; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17; 1 S 27:12; Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live alway 1 K 1:31; Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself 89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25; Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5; 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5; Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8; Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51; 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5; 1 Ch 28:4, 7; 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29() = 1 Ch 17:27(); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28; 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21; Is 57:16; Je 3:5, 12; La 3:31; Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22; Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12; Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7; Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8; 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: מ(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5; 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7; Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further I. עַד p. 723.
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (pp. 761–763). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

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Jordan Henshaw · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
That is appealing to authority.

So also is saying that I am right because I studied Greek for x amount of years.

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 23, 2018

Butch5 said:
The word olam cannot mean finite and infinite, they are mutually exclusive.

We're going to be stuck arguing about this for forever!

God is good forever!

If "forever" can mean both, why can't "olam"?

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
So also is saying that I am right because I studied Greek for x amount of years.

Still showing you don't know what you are talking about. I never said anything remotely like "I am right because I studied Greek for x amount of years." I have never said anything about years I have studied and I never claimed to be an authority.

Der Alte · Mar 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
OLAM pretty much corresponds with AIONIOS in these verses:
Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios)
decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity,
and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,
in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?
where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)
“Don’t be afraid; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be disappointed: for you shall forget the shame of your youth(aionios);
and the reproach of your widowhood you shall remember no more. (Isa 54:4)

What does "olam" mean in these verses?

Daniel 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [עולם/olam] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.
Jeremiah 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [עולם/olam]—everlasting shame [עולם/olam] that will not be forgotten."
In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “that will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “that will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.
Jeremiah 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [עולם/olam] covenant that will not be forgotten.
In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “that will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does. That is an example of a word being defined by context.

Butch5 · Mar 23, 2018

Der Alter said:
You presume to lecture on Greek but once again you prove that you don't know what you are talking about in English. "Appeal to authority" does not refer to citing a credible source. It means to cite someone who is not knowledgeable in the point or subject being discussed. For example, "President Bill Clinton said that the word olam never means a finite period of time." That is appealing to authority.
What does "olam" mean in these verses?

Daniel 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם/olam] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jeremiah 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם/olam]—everlasting shame [ עולם/olam] that will not be forgotten."
In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “that will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “that will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jeremiah 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [עולם/olam] covenant that will not be forgotten.
In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “that will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does. That is an example of a word being defined by context.

It's an appeal to authority because it's been proven wrong. Despite the fact that it's been shown that the word olam cannot mean eternity, you continue to appeal to the lexicon, authority, as though this over rides the proof already established.

Yet again you present an begging the question argument. If olam means age or ages then the olam disgrace will last for an or ages and not be forgotten.

Also, an olam covenant can last an age or ages and be remembered after it ends. Just because it isn't forgotten doesn't mean the covenant goes on forever.

An olam dominion or an age enduring dominion the will never end can also be interpreted as never ending during that age.

You see, all of these can easily be understood using the word age or ages. The reason your argument is begging the question is because you assuming that "will not be forgotten" means for eternity. You assuming that "will not pass away" and "will not be destroyed" mean eternity. However, it could also mean for that age. Thus you're reading eternity into these phrases and then back into the word olam in your comparison.

Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

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