Is there any Christian here who is a Nontrinitarian?

Albion · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
All I am here to say is that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are in unity with each other, but are separate entities, just as a family is.

That's not Trinitarian Christianity, however, and this forum is only for Trinitarian Christians.

loNerpt · Mar 23, 2018

..Henoch describes "a beautiful son next to God's throne"
which is Christ ofcourse

..Ezekiel uses the term 'she' in the ground text
when talking about the Spirit

this 'She' is described by him in the colour 'amber'

- in Amos, it is this "She" who is speaking ,
as in a diologue with God ,
saying "how long will You [=God] let these horible things go on still..?" etc

so yes its a family type concept

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

Grip Docility said:
Before Moses... “I Am”

To see Me is to see the Father

John 5:39 (Who does the Bible Testify about other than God?

Either YHWH lies in Isaiah 43:11 once Luke 2:11 is read... or Jesus is God.

Matthew 19:17 King James Version (KJV) 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 20:10-16 King James Version (KJV) 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.

11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.

13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

Matthew 4:1-11 King James Version (KJV) 4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil [God CANNOT be tempted].

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

[If Jesus is God, why does satan call him the Son of God instead?]

Matthew 26:63-64 King James Version (KJV) 63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

John 3:1-18 King James Version (KJV) 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:18-19 King James Version (KJV) 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 10:29 King James Version (KJV) 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28 King James Version (KJV) 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 19:7 King James Version (KJV) 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 20:30-31 King James Version (KJV) 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Exodus 20:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

Albion said:
That's not Trinitarian Christianity, however, and this forum is only for Trinitarian Christians.

The forum in general or this specific forum? This is the only place I'm allowed to post it I believe.

Albion · Mar 23, 2018

loNerpt said:
..Henoch describes "a beautiful son next to God's throne"
which is Christ ofcourse

..Ezekiel uses the term 'she' in the ground text
when talking about the Spirit

this 'She' is described by him in the colour 'amber'

- in Amos, it is this "She" who is speaking ,
as in a diologue with God ,
saying "how long will You [=God] let these horible things go on still..?" etc

so yes its a family type concept

Yes, except that in a human family, there are separate individuals. That is not the nature of God.

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

loNerpt said:
..Henoch describes "a beautiful son next to God's throne"
which is Christ ofcourse

..Ezekiel uses the term 'she' in the ground text
when talking about the Spirit

this 'She' is described by him in the colour 'amber'

- in Amos, it is this "She" who is speaking ,
as in a diologue with God ,
saying "how long will You [=God] let these horible things go on still..?" etc

so yes its a family type concept

I've never read of the Holy Spirit having any gender?

Tom 1 · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
Philippians 2:8-9 King James Bible (KJB)

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Yes, that’s ‘part 2’ of Phil 6-8, Jesus’ being in the ‘fashion’ of a man. My question to you is in verse 6, as above, where he is described as being in the form of/being in his nature God, which you appear to take as a comparison with God and not, as it reads, that Jesus was God in his being. What are you reasons for that and how are they supported by the text?

Albion · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
The forum in general or this specific forum? This is the only place I'm allowed to post it I believe.

My apologies. I do realize that the whole place is called a forum sometimes, but usually it is the particular affinity groups that are referenced by the word.

Look for the word Forums at the top of this panel right under the big word Christian. Click on it and you will see all the areas, both religious and non-religious, where discussions take place. Some are reserved for particular denominations, others have other requirements. But the rules (which see) of the whole website are posted too and inform us that conformity with the Nicene Creed is the standard here for posting on the Christians Only forums. This particular discussion has been taking place in a Christians Only section, which is also indicated near the top of this panel.

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

Tom Farebrother said:
Yes, that’s ‘part 2’ of Phil 6-8, Jesus’ being in the ‘fashion’ of a man. My question to you is in verse 6, as above, where he is described as being in the form of/being in his nature God, which you appear to take as a comparison with God and not, as it reads, that Jesus was God in his being. What are you reasons for that and how are they supported by the text?

Simply because of what he said in the Gospels, and how he was written about by Paul.

Tom 1 · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
Simply because of what he said in the Gospels, and how he was written about by Paul.

How does that answer the question? What do you think Paul is getting at in Phil 2 vs 6?

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

Albion said:
My apologies. I do realize that the whole place is called a forum sometimes, but usually it is the particular affinity groups that are referenced by the word.

Look for the word Forums at the top of this panel right under the big word Christian. Click on it and you will see all the areas, both religious and non-religious, where discussions take place. Some are reserved for particular denominations, others have other requirements. But the rules (which see) of the whole website are posted too and inform us that conformity with the Nicene Creed is the standard here for posting on the Christians Only forums.

Ah yeah you're right man, I can only post this in the Outreach. Personally I find it a bit weird honestly that I can't discuss this in the controversial forum, but I digress, Im going to contact a kid to get it moved so it doesn't get locked.

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

Tom Farebrother said:
How does that answer the question? What do you think Paul is getting at in Phil 2 vs 6?

That Jesus is truly likened unto God, as he lived perfectly as He is perfect, unlike no man before or after him.

loNerpt · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
I've never read of the Holy Spirit having any gender?

no .. because it was left-out of translations
they either mistakenly or deliberately left that out

but Amos is very clear -
"She" is speaking the chapters
saying "how She sees God walking conquering in the land
[=the land south-east of this earth]
with fuming nostrils , conquering to conquer"

...in another chapter of Amos 'She' says , worriedly ,
"but we are not going to die , are we ?" ,
in context of the incredible constructs which the Watchers devised , after eden fell

You can see the changes [in the text] about 'who is speaking',
the lines will say when either God is speaking , or the Spirit

Tom 1 · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
That Jesus is truly likened unto God, as he lived perfectly as He is perfect, unlike no man before or after him.

How do you get that from the text? In what way is Paul writing that Jesus is in his nature God not actually saying that but saying that he can be likened to God?

Grip Docility · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
Matthew 19:17 King James Version (KJV) 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 20:10-16 King James Version (KJV) 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.

11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.

13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

Matthew 4:1-11 King James Version (KJV) 4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil [God CANNOT be tempted].

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

[If Jesus is God, why does satan call him the Son of God instead?]

Matthew 26:63-64 King James Version (KJV) 63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

John 3:1-18 King James Version (KJV) 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:18-19 King James Version (KJV) 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 10:29 King James Version (KJV) 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28 King James Version (KJV) 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 19:7 King James Version (KJV) 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 20:30-31 King James Version (KJV) 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Exodus 20:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord

I AM the GOOD Shepherd ... John 10:11

Colossians 1:16

He Created all things Visible and Invisible... on Heaven and on Earth...

Since God is in Heaven as well as in our Hearts...

How did Jesus create God?
ALL Things... unequivocally... Visible and Invisible in Heaven and On Earth... by the text...

???

loNerpt · Mar 23, 2018

loNerpt said:
no .. because it was left-out of translations
they either mistakenly or deliberately left that out

but Amos is very clear -
"She" is speaking the chapters
saying "how She sees God walking conquering in the land
[=the land south-east of this earth]
with fuming nostrils , conquering to conquer"

...in another chapter of Amos 'She' says , worriedly ,
"but we are not going to die , are we ?" ,
in context of the incredible constructs which the Watchers devised , after eden fell

You can see the changes [in the text] about 'who is speaking',
the lines will say when either God is speaking , or the Spirit

..yet it isnt so strange is it ,
when "human is made in their image" ,

that eve was adam's inside ,
just like the Spirit - She - is God's inside ... His core , so to speak

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

Tom Farebrother said:
How do you get that from the text? In what way is Paul writing that Jesus is in his nature God not actually saying that but saying that he can be likened to God?

If Paul wanted to write that Jesus is God he would have simply just written it. His writings are in no way hard to infer from and they are as clear as day, and never did he mention Jesus being God, not even in this verse.

Grip Docility · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
That Jesus is truly likened unto God, as he lived perfectly as He is perfect, unlike no man before or after him.

Perfect is GOOD... and Only God is Perfect and Good...

How do you interpret that verse again?

And you never answered to Isaiah 43:11 when coupled with Luke 2:11

Whoops

Danoded · Mar 23, 2018

loNerpt said:
..yet it isnt so strange is it ,
when "human is made in their image" ,

that eve was adam's inside ,
just like the Spirit - She - is God's inside ... His core , so to speak

Yeah the Holy Spirit is from God, which is why it is divine, but I don't believe it has a gender.

Grip Docility · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
Yeah the Holy Spirit is from God, which is why it is divine, but I don't believe it has a gender.

Not active force or Action... but The Comfortor that Jesus Promised...

Could you expound please?

Albion · Mar 23, 2018

Danoded said:
I've never read of the Holy Spirit having any gender?

Actually, there are several places in Scripture where the Holy Ghost is referred to as "he." The Gospel of John, for example.

Is there any Christian here who is a Nontrinitarian?

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