Who does this verse refer to?

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,708
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Show me where YHWH has made a covenant with a "gentile" non-Israel 'church'
Your contention is a total denial of Christ's Ministry.
The New Covenant is with every faithful Christian believer. Matthew 26:28, Galatians 4:23-31, Galatians 3:3-9
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟982,622.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
John 4:8-30 never says she was an Israelite. She was a Samaritan, a mongrel people despised by the Jews.
All the House of Israel, excepting a few who joined with Judah, were gone by 718 BC, when Sargon 2 came down with the Assyrian army and defeated Egypt in the battle of Raphia.
Sargon then established the Satrapy [Assyrian province] of Samaria, totally replacing the Israelite population with Gentiles.

The woman claimed ancestry back to Jacob. Also Sargon only took about 28,000 captives, likely leaving the poor of the land as was common. Many of the northern kingdom returned after the defeat of both Assyria and Babylon, under Cyrus. Many would have returned to their homeland.

An interesting interplay in Matthew 15 is revealing.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts (of Tyre and Sidon), and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus waited until the right moment to confirm to the disciples that he was indeed ministering to the (spiritually) lost Israelites of the northern kingdom.

This comment by the Jews is revealing as well,

John 7:35
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Servant232

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2017
811
38
The High places of Jacob
✟38,799.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Your contention is a total denial of Christ's Ministry.
The New Covenant is with every faithful Christian believer. Matthew 26:28, Galatians 4:23-31, Galatians 3:3-9
Galatians 3:29 - Isaiah 41:8

Where is the Non-Israel covenant? There isn't One.

The New Jerusalem has twelve gates, each gate is named for a tribe of Israel. Revelation 22:14

Where is the pentecostal gate? The catholic gate? The protestant gate?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,708
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Where is the Non-Israel covenant? There isn't One.

The New Jerusalem has twelve gates, each gate is named for a tribe of Israel. Revelation 22:14

Where is the pentecostal gate? The catholic gate? The protestant gate?
You make the common error of thinking that ethnicity still counts. Ephesians 2:11-18 totally refutes that idea.
We Christians are the Israelites of God, we will inherit the Land and live there in the twelve divisions, as in ancient times. THIS is what is prophesied and is our privilege and our destiny.

There is only one people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Your belief of a separate Church and Israel is wrong and contradicts the Gospel message of salvation to al who will accept Jesus now. You preach another Gospel. Galatians 1:8-9
 
Upvote 0

Servant232

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2017
811
38
The High places of Jacob
✟38,799.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
You make the common error of thinking that ethnicity still counts. Ephesians 2:11-18 totally refutes that idea.
We Christians are the Israelites of God, we will inherit the Land and live there in the twelve divisions, as in ancient times. THIS is what is prophesied and is our privilege and our destiny.

There is only one people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Your belief of a separate Church and Israel is wrong and contradicts the Gospel message of salvation to al who will accept Jesus now. You preach another Gospel. Galatians 1:8-9

I did not make that error, you assumed that all by yourself, that happens when someone will not accept the truth.

I do no believe in a separate church and Israel, as there is no "circe" in the scriptures.

There is His Kahol, Greek Ekklesia, but no church. Luke 1:33

Dictionaries give the origin of "church" as the Anglo-Saxon root, circe. Circe was the goddess-daughter of Helios, the Sun- deity. The word circe is related to "circus," "circle," "circuit," and "circulate.".

Those who worship Him, Must do so in Spirit and Truth

Isaiah 66:4

You fail to see things from His perspective!

Chapter 12, Ephraim and Judah Become One House

THE GRAFTING OF THE SEED OF ABRAHAM

In Genesis (Bereishit) 12:1-9, the G-d of Israel called Abraham (Avraham) out of Ur of the Chaldeans and promised him that if he would obey the G-d of Israel that He would promise the seed of Abraham (Avraham) a land. Furthermore, the G-d of Israel declared to Abraham (Avraham) that He would bless those who would bless the seed of Abraham (Avraham) and curse those that would curse the seed of Abraham (Avraham). In Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 it is written:

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

However, in Hebrew, this verse is more profound in understanding how ALL FAMILIES of the earth would be "blessed" through the seed of Abraham (Avraham). In Hebrew, the phrase in Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 that reads in English as "And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" is written:

"Ve nivrecu bekah kol mishpachot ha-adamah."

The Hebrew word "nivrecu" is translated in most English texts as "be blessed." However, the usual Hebrew word for "be blessed" is not nivrecu. It is yivrecu. The word "nivrecu" is the "niphal" conjugation of the Hebrew word, barak. The Hebrew word barak has a deeper meaning than just "blessed." The simplest Hebrew meaning of the word barak is blessing which invokes the G-d of Israel’s presence, favor or choice in a given situation. Jewish prayers (house of Judah) begin with the phrase, "Baruk atah Adonai..." which in English is "Blessed are you, Lord..." and reflects the idea that "blessed" is related to being "chosen" or "favored" by the G-d of Israel.

In five places in the Talmud and other Rabbinic literature, nivrecu is translated as "grafted or intermingled." In the Orthodox Jewish ArtScroll Tenakh Series, Volume 1, page 432, it is written:

There is ... an opinion shared by Rashbam [to Genesis 28:14], Chizkuni, Da’as Zekeinum, and quoted by Tur that the verb (ve nivrecu) in Genesis 12:3 is related to the root barak as in the Mishnaic term mavreek meaning to "intermingle or graft." [cf Kelaim 7:1, Sotah 43a.] As Heidenheim explains it, this interpretation is inspired by the fact that nowhere else besides here do we find barak in the sense of blessing in the niphal conjugation, while in the sense of "grafting" it is common in that form.

Therefore, based upon this insight of the Hebrew language by respected Hebrew scholars within the house of Judah (Judaism), Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 is better understood to be translated as:

"And in thee shall all families of the earth nivrecu [be grafted or intermingled]."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,708
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
THE GRAFTING OF THE SEED OF ABRAHAM
Who is the 'Seed' of Abraham? Jesus, and thru Him shall all who believe in Him be blessed. Galatians 3:16

So what you say is correct; into Christ, people from every race, nation and language will be grafted, into the Lord's 'kahol or ekkelasia', the one true Israel of God.
And all of the holy Land will be our inheritance. Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 8:16-18
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟85,556.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
John 4:8-30 never says she was an Israelite. She was a Samaritan, a mongrel people despised by the Jews.
All the House of Israel, excepting a few who joined with Judah, were gone by 718 BC, when Sargon 2 came down with the Assyrian army and defeated Egypt in the battle of Raphia.
Sargon then established the Satrapy [Assyrian province] of Samaria, totally replacing the Israelite population with Gentiles.

Jesus went to the lost sheep of Israel. He stayed within Israeli borders. He out reached to those living within Israel to those who would listen. Including some Samaritians.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,708
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Jesus went to the lost sheep of Israel. He stayed within Israeli borders. He out reached to those living within Israel to those who would listen. Including some Samaritians.
Make a list for us, of all those who Jesus converted. Other than the 12 Disciples; and one of them rejected Him!
No; Jesus just planted the seed; He WAS the Seed, and the Apostles, incl Paul did the donkey work. Note that Paul was converted by Jesus AFTER He had gone to heaven. There are many instances now, of Jesus appearing to those who cry out to Him in their extremity.

The Gospel was taken to the 'lost sheep' of Israel; the ten Northern tribes, mainly by Paul - he went to Galacia, where the Celtic people there, [Cimmerians, Scythians, all Israelites] accepted his teaching.
Britain received the Gospel by mid 1 AD, by tradition from Joseph of Aramathea and Aristoblus.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟85,556.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Make a list for us, of all those who Jesus converted. Other than the 12 Disciples; and one of them rejected Him!
No; Jesus just planted the seed; He WAS the Seed, and the Apostles, incl Paul did the donkey work. Note that Paul was converted by Jesus AFTER He had gone to heaven. There are many instances now, of Jesus appearing to those who cry out to Him in their extremity.

The Gospel was taken to the 'lost sheep' of Israel; the ten Northern tribes, mainly by Paul - he went to Galacia, where the Celtic people there, [Cimmerians, Scythians, all Israelites] accepted his teaching.
Britain received the Gospel by mid 1 AD, by tradition from Joseph of Aramathea and Aristoblus.

My point was Jesus preached too and converted the samaritians that would entertain him in Israel. Some of them had lived in Israel a long time. Longer than your ancestors in NZ.

Oh and the apostles and disciples went to many different places after Jesus death. Not just where paul went.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,708
2,493
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
My point was Jesus preached too and converted the samaritians that would entertain him in Israel. Some of them had lived in Israel a long time. Longer than your ancestors in NZ.
Yes, the woman at Jacobs well and a few Samaritans did believe in Jesus. Very few Jews, though. FYI, I am a 4th generation Kiwi. My GGGrandfather emigrated to NZ from Scotland in 1830.
Oh and the apostles and disciples went to many different places after Jesus death. Not just where paul went.
Sure they did: To everywhere the 10 tribes were. And to all who would listen, proved by the people from every tribe, race, nation and language seen in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal event. Revelation 7:9
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
John 4:8-30 never says she was an Israelite. She was a Samaritan, a mongrel people despised by the Jews.
All the House of Israel, excepting a few who joined with Judah, were gone by 718 BC, when Sargon 2 came down with the Assyrian army and defeated Egypt in the battle of Raphia.
Sargon then established the Satrapy [Assyrian province] of Samaria, totally replacing the Israelite population with Gentiles.

You're off on that.

John 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0